See.....heres where I get into trouble with this. I am not so sure Beck IS MENTALLY tough. I am WONDERING if that might be his problem. Smart.....check.......hardworking.............check.........PHYSICALLY TOUGH........... I will even agree with that one after the amount of times he kept getting up after being plastered to the ground but........MENTALLY TOUGH??............THAT ONE........I aint sold on yet. Not saying he isnt.........just not sure yet. might just be his problem. We shall see if they are willing to take a 6th or 7th for the guy. right now its just a guess either way.
Bum...this is our THIRD string QB we're talking about. All the anticdotal evidence you provide explains why he's No. 3 on the depth chart. Your 3rd string QB doesn't show you he's starter material on the field, because he'll not ever get the chance, because he's third string. So why do you have a 3rd stringer? To develop. What kind of guy do you develop? One that has the tools and the right attitude, but just isn't getting the game yet. That's John Beck to a tee. Listen, I was an ardent Beck supporter when he still had a shot at starter, and I openly admitted on this forum that he'd played himself out of the starter role and needed to have the game slow down more for him. But it's ludicrous to proclaim with any level credibility that he's not fit to be a third string QB for this football team. Just nuts.
wasnt he SECOND string...........Beck is THIRD .....that is the point being made by this side of the debate. Beck is third because a ROOKIE beat him out
But you still have to have a 3rd string QB. How you gonna get one? You'll have to replace him by drafting another unknown in the late rounds, or you'll have to pay for a worn out, over the hill, hopeless Vet to come in and sit the bench. The first plan leads you down a path of endless musical chairs, never settling on any QB and developing him. The second plan ensures that you'll be giving a roster spot to a guy who is so bad at his position, and has lost so much hope for a revived career, that he's agreed to swallow his pride and voluntarily sit the bench for the rest of his career. Is THAT the kind of guy Tony Sparano wants on his team, at any position and at any level on the depth chart? Don't think so.
Again, you fail to cope with the fact that Beck was drafted with the intention to be a starting caliber QB!! He was taken in the 2nd round after we bypassed the savior Quinn in favor of Beck... Beck wasn't a 6th or 7th round 3rd string experiment.... Now should we punish him for his draft position? No way. But we also need to take in to account that if Beck was an undrafted FA or someone we drafted late on day 2, he probably doesn't make it out of training camp...
There are only 2 ways a Qb has the game slow down for him, one is to be thrown out on the field, take their lumps and learn by OJT. The other way is far more messy, it takes two to four years of riding the pine, learning the plays over and over, running the scout team, watching film, sitting in meetings. It's a sort of Qb remedial training, back to basics, and learning pretty much via osmosis, just so much time spent around the game, things become old hat and routine. To me, that is route they've chosen for John Beck, "fail forward fast" did not work, so it is back to Qb kindergarten and the fat black pencils..
Well, it sounds like you're doing exactly that. It sounds like you want to discard Beck because he didn't live up to his draft status. He's a QB with some tools. He's relatively young. He's eager. He's smart. He's diligent. Boy, I gotta tell ya, that sounds like a guy you want as your third string QB. Doesn't matter where he was drafted or what the previous regime expected of him. He's Tony's guy now, which he stated at the beginning of the year. Sparano said plainly that if, by the start of season, you've still got a roster spot with the Miami Dolphins, then you ARE his kind of player and you ARE a Miami Dolphin. If they didn't see Beck as an ideal 3rd string QB, don't you think they'd have canned him way back when? Don't you think they could have found some guy floating around on the waiver wire to throw into his spot? Heck, they could have just kept McCown on the team to hold down the bench for that matter. But they didn't. And why? Because Bill, Jeff and Tony decided not to, and I don't think the magnificant lure of a 6th round draft pick will make them change their minds about a player they've put ALOT of time and energy into already. Like Padre said, cutting bait with Beck now would only undue all the work they've put into him, work they'd have to reinvest in another QB of similar stature and abilities. That's just a bad investment.
Both sides of the argument are pretty good. I prefer to keep him as long as he is improving and learning. I'm sure the coaches have a better feel for him and will make the right choice.
To add to this, there was a credible rumor that Dallas did offer a 6th for Beck last season and that we turned it down. I think it's much more likely that Beck is considered by this administration as exactly the kind of guy that you want to develop rather than as a guy they'll dump for a late round pick. And the fact is that many people recognize that some (most) QBs take three years to develop and won't dump a guy who looked lost before that as long as they see potential.
Not really M2C, this is a discussion about whether or not we should get rid of Beck for a 6th or 7th round pick; not about his ability to be a starting QB. Much different than those threads back in PS. It's like comparing stocks to bonds. Just not the same in terms of investment strategy.
To be honest, id rather keep him. Unfortuantely pennington probably wont be around here a whole lot longer and when Henne steps in John Beck is certainly a good backup.
It was meant to be a bit funny but also point out how far behind the curve J Beck must have been, that scenario does work, it requires patience though. Guys like Cassel, Bono, Rodgers, they sit, they learn, then eventually they can play a bit, you also see it all the time in Big Time College Football and in High School. The one thing that bothers me is the nature of Henning's offense, typically that slow growth approach works the best for a West Coast Offense Qb due to all the option routes a Qb has to learn, this year, IMO, we ran a po boy version of that offense. But I'm not certain if Beck's learning curve is...sufficient..long term in this offense? We are running a sort of neither fish nor fowl offense, the "next" Coordinator may have their own ideas about what our "O" should look like.
As evidenced by what? We've seen nothing from John Beck to show he is a capable starter, backup, or even third stringer. For those of you who want a great fictional story about a team that trusted a 3rd stringer at QB who had ball security issues, read John Grisham's Playing for Pizza. Of course that QB went on to... I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody.
I really don;t like the possibility that old man Henning may move on in the next few years, necessitating another OC. When that happens, teams always regress, because here are the possibiilities: 1) a new OC comes in with a different system. QBs like Beck have to learn a whole new way of doing things. 2) a new OC comes in but tries to keep the old system, running 'someone else's' offense.. this usually is like trying to wear someone else's suit... you end up looking crappy. Look at Mularkey running Linehan's system. So, if he leaves, pick your poison. Losing offensive continuity and regressing the QB play, or watching an OC try to make calls in a system that doesn;t suit his philosophies. Either way, an OC leaving is one of the most disruptive things that can happen to a QB. I hope Henning stays for a looong time, but that seems unlikely. Anyways, it would be horrible for guys like Beck, who need years, apparently, to become comfortable in a system.
By "we've" you must mean you, because I've seen enough of him to think he can be a very good backup and an excellent developmental guy. I won't rehash all the reasons why, as I've stated them ad nauseum earlier in the year.
At the Pro level? Please explain. I'm not baiting you, maybe I can learn something new that I'm missing.
fair enough, I agree with you assesment... Right now, John's biggest hurdle is that he was not brought in by this FO... I believe all things being equal between Henne and Beck, Henne would have the edge, because of our FO... Now I hope the FO has seen something else on Henne that they don't see with John and that is why they have Henne at the # 2 spot...
True, I was considering that we aren't really running a "known" system like the WCO, one WCO OC plays may be called something different, "but" once a Qb learns how the offense is supposed to work, and what the reads and progressions are, they can translate from one Offensive Coordinator to the next. Henning sort of came up with this system on the fly, it's not the one back, and it's not the same one he ran in Carolina, that means Beck had better learn what being a NFL Qb means, and then just study his butt off if we get a new OC anytime soon.
I could be wrong but...going back on memory... Before TC, Beck was sought after by his coaches to be the starting QB. In all the mini-camps and practices (without contact and no defense), Beck looked good with his receivers and had the play-book memorized... Now when TC started, the coaches came out with the 3 second buzzer...the QBs had to get rid of the ball by then...they also played a little more defense, rushing the passer and the DBs were playing more physically with the WRs...they also had different QBs playing with 1st, 2nd and 3rd string Offenses, as well, as playing against 1st, 2nd, and 3rd string Defenses... The one biggest constant problems in TC was the fact that most of our WRs had too many dropped balls, as well as problems getting seperation from the coverages... Taking those points above, all 3 QBs BP (Before Pennington), Josh, Henne and John, had a rough time during TC pratices a number of times. The Palm Beach Post Blogs can verify that... That QB area stabalized when Pennington was brought in, and that help to solve the catching issue, also the biggest impact (IMHO) was the fact that Pennington can read Defenses on the fly, much better that both Henne and Beck without a doubt... I am sure both Beck and Henne have progressed immensely in learning coverages from Pennington, that is one big, if not the biggest rookie hurtles for a young QB... I believe the FO will like to see these two young guns perform more before making a decision on Beck, unless Pennington and Lee has had conversation with Tony on him and a decision has already been made... we will just have to wait and see...
Yes!! W/ those two, at least we know they are horrible w/ no upside. W/ Beck? In reality, who really knows. We saw him play as an unprepared rookie for a Cam Cameron coached team. Doesn't that say it right there? I like Henne's skillset more, but Beck isn't exactly chopped liver when it comes to talent. He's got Drew Brees written all over him talent wise. Whether he has Brees' head is yet to be seen. Unless someone gives us a #3 or higher, you keep him. You can NEVER have enough talent at QB, especially young talent. I mean, who knows. Penny could go down in preseason, and Henne could bust a knee in week 2. Then, Beck could lead us to the playoffs. Happens all the time in this league. Sorry, I'd rather see what Beck could do in such a situation, rather than Joey Harrington. Oy Vey!
Third stringers are third stringers because they have enough to make the team in the way of talent, but they lack in some part of their game enough so that they aren't second or first stringers. So really the only proof I need to see from Beck is that he has upside. Arm strength? Yes. Quick release? Yes. Smarts? Yes. Determined? Yes. Accurate passer? Yes. Mentally prepared to lead an NFL team? Not there yet. So, if you're willing to can a guy who has all the tools but hasn't put it all together at the NFL level yet, then you had better be prepared to can every single third stringer on all 32 teams, as well as some 2nd stringers, because they've all got problems. Otherwise they would be starting. Simple as that. JB has potential, and that's all you can hope for in a third string QB. And oh yeah, Sparano, the NFL COTY, thinks he's got some potential, as evidenced by the fact he gave him a job.
That all sounds beautiful, but can you point to a game where he demonstrated these traits? And please don't mention the lone TD in garbage time vs. the Bungals. You stated you've seen enough of him to show that he can be a very good backup. When I think of very good backup I think of guys who have won a game or two in the NFL and can handle a snap. But maybe you just have good eyes and saw some things I missed.
Terrible and tired argument. Manning did not "suck" his rookie year. He made some rookie mistakes but also threw a lot of TD passes and won a few games. There is simply no comparison between Peyton Manning and John Beck in their rookie campaigns. Also, once again Beck has had 2 seasons in the NFL not 1. While Manning improved drastically in season 2, Beck was outperformed by a rookie and was relegated to 3rd string. Also, Manning was not 26 years old when drafted.
What you missed.. or are ignoring over and over is the COACH thinks he is worthy. Whine and complain all you want, the bottom line is the staff saw things you are oblivious to or he wouldn't be here.
Lets not forget that Beck threw what? 40,000 passes or something for Coach Lee last Spring. Anybody in here that professes to know more about Beck than our staff needs to have an exam done IMO. IF this guy were a no-go for the current staff, there is zero chance he would still be on the roster....lets not forget, Prior to getting Penny for nothing, Beck was still on the active roster. After getting Penny for nothing..guess what...he STILL made the roster.
You're asking me to provide you with statistically significant evidence drawn from an statistically insignificant sample size. Not exactly a fair request. With 2nd and 3rd string QBs, you have to rely on your gut instincts. You have to rely on practice and mini camps and film room effort and college performance. I haven't the time nor inclination to dig up a mountain of evidence we've all poured over earlier in the year just to prove to you that John Beck is talented enough to be our 3rd string QB. Apparently, my instincts on Beck are comparable to Sparano's/Ireland's instincts on Beck. So, I respectfully put the burden of proof on you to prove that John Beck is not qualified to serve as this team's third string QB.
The problem is my point is not that John Beck can't serve as our team's third string QB. I have my doubts, but I'll leave that to our coaches and FO to decide. YOU stated that you've seen enough to believe that he is a very good backup QB. I think very good backup QBs are QBs who have proven then can play in the NFL. I haven't see that from John Beck but that's just my observations and my opinion.
It's not that he was good enough, it's that he has, or willl develope into a QB that is good enough. That is the question. If there has been no change from his rookie year, then yes he should be dumped. The thing is, if that was true, do you think he'd be on the team now?
You're focusing on the result. Coaches who are analyzing a QB's skills don't do that b/c they realize that many things out of the QB's control can skew the outcome (good or bad). They look at whether or not the QB made the right read, got the ball out on time, threw the ball to where the WR was supposed to be etc. And when the QB does screw up (like with the snap) whether it's a correctable error.
