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Things Learned this weekend

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by OSaban, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    1) Chambers is a great receiver who made his team better.
    Case closed

    2) Defense and QB play wins playoff games and championships
    Those are the #1 and #2 things Miami needs to figure out and fix, not the offensive line. Get over that. Here's a stat: all of the playoff teams had QB's with QB ratings in the top 15 and all of the playoff teams had scoring avgs against in the top of the league.

    3) Coaching and continuity make an offensive line, not high draft picks or loads on money spent on free agents
    See NE, the Giants and the Packers for more information on how O-lines are developed. All three of those teams put more emphasis on bringing in defensive players in the draft and with their big FA signings

    4) Young WR's have to step up in big games
    Pat Crayton didn't
    Steve Smith and Greg Jennings did
    I think Ginn can but Hagan needs to be upgraded. Miami needs to take a WR early this year unless they get Berrian or Bryant Johnson
     
  2. FinaticalOne

    FinaticalOne New Member

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    I agree with most of what you said, but the offensive lines play a huge part in the success of these playoff QBs. Let's take NE for example.

    NE o-line has some expensive investents on the line.

    LT Matt Light - 2nd round pick
    LG Logan Mankins - 1st round pick
    C Dan Koppen - 5th round pick
    RG Stephen Neal - Undrafted Free Agent
    RT Nick Kaczur - 3rd round pick.

    The most important positions have expensive picks (first day picks) invested:

    LT & LG protects Brady's blind side.
    RT is the other bookend that keeps pass rushers away.

    The last four teams in the playoffs all have strong offensive lines. I agree you don't have to have a first day pick invested at every position on the offensive line, but you better be dead-on accurate in hoping that a second day pick will someday become a quality starter on the offensive line, and the latter is where we've failed miserably at. When you watch the QBs in the playoffs, what is the most obvious thing they have that our QBs don't have. I'll answer that question...............TIME. Sometimes these QBs look like they have all day in the pocket making their reads; sometimes I think they went through their reads 2-3 times before making a decision. I have yet to see our offensive line do that ONCE.

    I agree about your stance on defense. I am a defensive mined person, and our defense is just horrific and needs the most attention more than anything else this year.
     
    Dtronic, Reminisce and REV KEV like this.
  3. Danny

    Danny New Member

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    The o-line is very important.....Brady seems to have all day to trow the ball and so does Manning...the last play of the game Manning didn't have much time to trow and it was incomplete...having said that, we need to fix our defence but the o-line needs at least 1 more player plus 1 of the young guys needs to step up.

    Ozzy rules!!
     
  4. Drfletcherdc

    Drfletcherdc New Member

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    Bryant Johnson drops more passes than anyone I have ever seen.
     
  5. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    OMG - The offenses were by far the reason these teams won..., SD "D" had to be on it's game VS. Peyton and Crew but..., I mean they kept throwing in their spare parts... And that Oline beat up what is left of Indy's Dline...

    Please don't get me started on GB VS. Seatlte..., the Pats have drafted Olinemen in the first round... Nick Mangold...
     
  6. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    Thanks Danny
     
  7. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    Thanks to you Fanatical One..., for giving us "the reply of the day"
     
  8. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Yeah for Chambers love! Jackson is really emerging now that he's there...
     
  9. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    They also have QB's who get rid of the ball quickly and accurately. The Rev Kev apparently likes to play both sides of the argument but let me frame it this way-the biggest difference between the Final Four teams and Miami is not their O-lines. Not even close.

    Its our Defense and QB play. Our O-line is going to look a helluva lot better with a real running back and QB behind center. But that doesn't matter if we do not fix a defense which can not stop the run and can not cover anybody.

    That's all I'm saying- this simplistic "we have to fix the OL" and "it all starts with the OL" is nonsense and misses the real problem. We have the pieces in place for a decent to good OL. I agree that a FA OL would help solidify the line but asking to make OL the priority or drafting Jake Long over better defenders is not the way to go.
     
  10. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    What you should have learned is that in the history of the current playoff seeding format there has never been a matchup between the #1 & #2 seeds in the Conference Championship game. No, not ever.

    I made a bet yesterday with a buddy of mine who is a Dallas fan, easiest way to make a grand yet.
     
  11. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    They also have QB's who get rid of the ball quickly and accurately. Talk about playing both sides...

    Everyone agrees that the "D" is in need... but this problem is not fixed in one season..., maybe two good drafts and some FAs... the Oline is not satisfactory get it... others do...
     
  12. Miamifire

    Miamifire New Member

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    Chris is a good receiver, I like him, but he drops too many balls and is more a no. 2 receiver than a 1.
     
  13. sabanhater

    sabanhater New Member

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    5) Terrel Owens is a cry baby.
     
  14. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    Ha. No unit on this team is "satisfactory" Talk about a weak argument. Dig a little deeper, Rev

    You love both sides of the argument, huh, Kevin? Just answer this question, please. If you were GM where would you spend most of your picks and FA dollars this offseason- the OL or the defense?

    I've been pretty consistent on the QB issue which is also far less settled than the OL. We have Cleo Lemon who holds the ball way too long and Beck who is very inexperienced.

    No Kev, I don't get the O-line obsession in here that you are a big part of. What you don't get is that maybe the problem isn't solely with the players. NE has one first rounder and a second rounder on their starting five, same as we do. They also have a few low round draft picks and some guys that they developed. That's what we need to do. You can't afford to have a line full of first day picks and high priced free agents. NO team left in the playoffs built their O-line the way some in here would do it.

    You're right that not all problems are solved in one offseason but if you have to priortize the offseason needs OL might be fourth or fifth.
     
  15. Bumpus

    Bumpus she is calm, she is beautiful, she is ...

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    Mangold is a Jet.
     
  16. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Keep the conversation civil and comment only on the post and not the poster.
     
  17. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    First of all, on offense everything starts with the OL. The play of the QB is directly related to the play of the OL. The play and productivity if the RB is directly related to the play of the OL. The play of the WR's is directly related to the play of the OL. If the OL doesn't do their job in the running game, the runningback isn't going to have holes to run through and will be continually hit behind the line like Ronnie had been soo many times last year and during preseason. If the OL doesn't do their job protecting the QB and giving him time to go through his progressions and make the right throw, then the play and productivity of the QB and his WR's are going to suffer.

    It's simple.

    Sure we need help on defense, you can't give up 30+ points every game and hope to outscore your opponents every week. Heck, defense is my #1 priority this offseason, but that doesn't mean that the OL isn't important or that it shouldn't be a priority. People have every right to be concerned about the play of the OL, they started out very well and seemed to fizzle out towards the end of the season (which could be related to poor morale due to a terrible season).

    But the OL does need to be fixed, we would be foolish to ignore it and even more foolish to pretend that everything on offense doesn't start with the OL.
     
  18. zach8111

    zach8111 New Member

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    o-lines are the very important. we have to upgrade. you CANT even WIN GAMES if you dont have time to throw or run the ball. if we even take a 2 round OT (jeff otah my guess) would help out tremendously. move our LT over to RT and satele in center. our line could be set to be good. look at the teams in playoffs NE, great o-line, SD great o-line, GB great 0-line and NYG good o-line.
     
  19. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    Tens of Dolphin fans adhering to "Simple" doesn't make what you believe true or right.

    Why did this OL look so much better with Ronnie Brown and Trent Green behind center? People were lauding the play of the OL through the first six or seven otherwise dismal weeks of this season. I admit the line's play fell off once Brown and Green got hurt but this platitude that it all starts with the OL means nothing when you don't have a QB or receivers who can get open and catch the ball.

    Can you honestly tell me that Cleo Lemon was throwing the ball on time and accurately when he did have protection or that Derek Hagan was either getting open consistently or catching the ball? What, exactly, was this offensive line blocking for the last 10 weeks of the season? Maybe the occasional Jesse Chatman burst but even he was hurt for most of the second half of the season.

    The play of the WR's is going to suffer because of this O-line? Relative to what? Outside of a promising rookie we fielded a squad of WR's who would struggle to start in the CFL. We need a #1 WR and probably another #2 to be competitive next year, not to mention a real TE, and you guys are screaming about the offensive line?

    The offensive line didn't struggle b/c of "morale" or lack of talent on the line. They struggled down the stretch because the Dolphins didn't have a skill position player worth worrying about once Green, Brown and Chamber left or went down. That's simple in the right sense unlike this incredibly naive and cliched mantra in here that "we need to fix the O-line by signing and drafted every player I can name"

    We need to make the players and prospects we have spent lots of money and high draft picks on work by surrounding them with better skill position players and by giving them continuity. Constantly remaking this line every year isn't going to work and wastes valuable draft picks.

    People have a right to be concerned about the OL but not one "fan" has given a valid reason why OL is even in the top 3 or 4 Dolphin needs relative to other needs of the team.

    I'll say it again, you have room for one or two priorities every offseason and when your defense is old, slow and untalented and you could use players at WR, TE, QB, DL, LB and CB there's room for one FA lineman and a late draft pick for the O-line. The Jake Long Earth is Flat Society should and will have to wait for their dreams to come true.
     
  20. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    The entire team needs an upgrade. If Otah can start at LT opening day and play for ten years at LT there's no way he lasts until pick #32.

    Its been documented fairly well and often in here that Miami has invested as much, if not more, than all of the team in the playoffs in their O-line. If Sparano is hired its up to him to get the most out of the first, second and fourth rounders he has along with Flozell Adams.
     
  21. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Not again.. Please DOLPHINS fans lets give up this notion that Chris Chambers is somehow in the same class as T.O. Randy Moss, or Marvin Harrison. The love fest for him is plain silly.

    he had many years in a Dolphins Uniform to PROVE his caliber and it never happend. He played with quaterbacks that were on the same level as Philip Rivers talent over those years. Gus Ferrotte, Jay Fielder (yes they were Highly regarded QB's back when we aquired them) and Chris just did not make the team THAT much better..

    he would catch crazy balls on the sideline with one toe hanging in there, but would drop the 3rd and 7 pass that would hit him dead in the chest.....

    Im so tired of the community pawning over old players... It's done. Over and will accomplish nothing. the people who made these moves are gone. The Regime is FRESH and new. Lets get behind the new team and bring in new names not has beens and build a franchise that can compete for years to come...

    I have faith we are heading that direction, Chris Chambers, Wes Welker, and Junior Seau are not part of the Dolphins anymore so lets just move on..
     
  22. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    Fiedler/Frerrotte equals Phil Rivers, OK. You should have stopped typing at that point. You lost all credibility there.

    Unlike Harrison and TO Chambers is catching TD's in the postseason. His "drops" problem is a myth perpetuated by bitter Miami fans who didn't know or appreciate a good player when they saw one. Ask Charger fans how well Chambers catches the ball.

    Nobody but Wanny had Fiedler as a highly rated QB so sell crazy somewhere else. Chambers haters tend to misevaluate everything they see on the football field from the play of the OL to how good/bad a defense is. This on-line version of the Dolphin fan is a mystery to me, I don't know what you guys are even watching.

    None of the QB's Chambers played with in Miami were in Rivers' or Voleks' class. Blame Wannstache for that. Chambers had competent play from his QB with Frerrotte for about 10 games and he was a superstar in that stretch but "fans" would rather dwell on the times when Chambers had Harrington and Lucas throwing him the ball when no receiver had a shot of showing what they could do.

    I'm moving on but Miami better take that pick from SD and turn it into a player as good as Chambers, preferably one who can get open and make plays.
     
  23. Zippy

    Zippy The Man in Black. Club Member

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    I think that may be irony at its best.

    I think the truth lies somewhere in between most of the fans points of view. There were games where Chambers would just amaze me with his skills, but there were also games where he would frustrate me with his drops. Drops I might add I actually saw, they were no myth. Chris will be missed on this team, and I wish him the best of luck in the future. I appreciate all he did for my Dolphins.
     
  24. big0mar

    big0mar New Member

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    some of you people need to take a look at Chambers' DVOA....its terrible
     
  25. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    The play of the OL is always important no matter who is lining up behind center.

    Because if the Qb doesn't have time to drop back, go through his reads and make the throw, how are the WR's going to get the ball in their hands? Who is responsible for keeping the Qb upright and giving him time to make his reads and deliver the ball? That's right, the OL. So if the OL doesn't do their job in pass protection, the offense as a whole suffers from the QB to the RB to the WR's to the TE.

    So they flat out gave up because they didn't have the starters behind them? All the more reason to fix the OL. Truth is they didn't give up, they wore down because of the teams record, losing does that to a team. When you win, everything is fine and players are happy and competitve. When you lose, players struggle to stay focused and compete hard.

    You can be overly dramatic and call people naive and think that only you hold the answers to fix this team, but people have the right to their opinions. I haven't seen anyone here say that the OL needs a complete overhaul. I have seen people making suggestions about FA's that may be available, I've seen people mention players that the Phins should look at in the draft, but I have yet to see anyone say that the OL needs a complete makeover.

    I'm not on the "Draft Jake Long" bandwagon, but I respect people enough to let them have their opinion. I can and will explain my side of the argument, but I'm not going to call people out in a thread and call them naive. Keep the comments on the post and not the poster, I already gave a warning in this thread about that.

    The thing is, we haven't spent high draft picks on the OL (other than Carey and Satele) and we haven't spent wisely either. Sure they threw $$$ at guys like Shelton, but was that a wise move? Spending wisely has been the problem, giving big $$$ to a career underachiever is not spending wisely. If we had brought Dielman to Miami last year, or Hutchinson before him or Kruetz before him. you would have a point. But any money that the Phins have spent on OL was on average players, and you can't turn average players into superstars no matter how hard you try.

    I believe I gave you a pretty good description of the responsibilities of the OL in my earlier post.

    There are so many holes on this team that they won't all be addressed in one offseason. Anyone that thinks that this team is one or two players away from the playoffs isn't being honest with themselves. This rebuild will be done in steps little by little over the next 2 or 3 years, it won't be a quick fix. Focusing solely on defense this year is not going to make us a playoff team. We haev to take the players as they become available, if that means we draft them this year or next or sign them in FA this year or next, we need to do it.
     
  26. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Really? Billy Volek? Really?

    I had as much beef with Fiedler as the next guy, but to say he wasn't even in the same class as Billy Volek?! Come on
     
  27. Regan21286

    Regan21286 MCAT's, EMT's, AMCAS, ugh

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    What I re-learned is the importance of a nice tall WR and/or TE. Vincent Jackson (6'5), Dallas Clark (6'3), Terrell Owens (6'3), Amani Toomer (6'3), Jason Witten (6'5), Matt Jones (6'5) all either had 80+ yards or a TD. All the playoff teams had at least one big option whether it be TE or WR. In the the upcoming round, NE, NYG, and SD all have at least starting 2 go-to big receiving threats (GB being the lone holdout though Donald Lee has been productive as a safety valve). How many big targets do we have? Hagan's pushing it with 6'2 and he's been iffy.
     
  28. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    What I learned is that players on other teams, running other systems, with its own set of personnel, can beat a team that has its own set of players, executing its own system, and not a whole lot is relevant to the Miami Dolphins with our personnel in our system for 2009.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2008
  29. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    I typed out a HUGE response but when I hit submit the site crashed (timeout!?) so Im not going to re-type it.. But Ill give you the quick points

    in 2001,2003,2005 Gus Fererotte and Jay Fiedler had "ON PAR" numbers with Phillip Rivers in 2005 and 2006 Almost statistically the same give or take 200 yads and 3 touchdowns.

    GUS
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FrerGu00.htm

    JAY
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FiedJa00.htm

    Chambers
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ChamCh00.htm

    So I would now like a an apology for the lost credability comment. as you can see in 2001,2003,2005 we had JUST AS GOOD OF A QB....


    Chambers had some good years, but he also would miss the clutch catches when it mattered... We will miss him, but the fins will move on and get better hes no longer a Miami Dolphin...

    But my point on the QB stands correct...

    Credability Restored.
     
  30. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    You are wrong about the offensive line. Good QB play and good offensive lines go hand in hand. Take the best QB in the league and put him behind a terrible O-line and I guarantee there will be no playoffs for that team. Take a mediocre QB and put him behind the Pats O line and that team is still a playoff, if not superbowl team.
     
  31. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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  32. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    Irrelevant argument. We don't have a horrible offensive line. You people are just obsessed with the idea that we do.

    So Tom Brady and those receivers don't matter? Brady is the best QB of all time throwing to the one of the best WR's ever with an excellent TE, slot receiver and speed receiver thrown in for good measure. Miami has none of that, not even close.

    Did Dan Marino have the best O-line of all time or did he just make it look better than it was b.c he was so good? Our O-line played with a collection of the worst skill position players we've had in awhile this year.

    How would the Pats O-line look with Lemon, Hagan and Gado as their primary offensive weapons?
     
  33. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    The Offensive line is not the problem per say.. The problem we have had is that over the last 5 years we have had multiple head coaches. Each with there own unique offensive scheme. You need players to FIT YOUR SYSTEM. How is that possible when you switch systems EVERY YEAR?

    The pats, The Colts, and others are dominate because they have a system year in and out and the add complimentry players to there scheme... Our Offensive Line will not be on top untill we have 3 years of a stable offense.
     
  34. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    Phil Rivers was the #4 overall pick who is in his third year. Fiedler and Frerotte were late round or free agent journeymen. Rivers' team is in the AFC championship. He hasn't had a great year like his first as a starter was but if you gave 32 GM's the chance to have Gus, Jay or Phil in their prime, how many of them would opt for option A or B?

    Zero.

    Also, could you list the "clutch" catches Chambers missed and could you please, since you're so into stats, list his % of drops compared to the his contemporaries?

    I think the Chambers' bad hands myth is just another example of finheaven groupthink
     
  35. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    I'll buy that but let's start by bringing back 3/5's of this year's line, let the younger players compete for the LG spot and bring in a veteran LT.
     
  36. Etuoo33

    Etuoo33 New Member

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    Did you watch the games?
    SD lost the RB and the QB.Do you think the backups did it themselves? Could they have done it with our OL? I think not. Much as I like C. Chambers, he is not a GREAT reciever. simply put, he drops too many balls.
    I agree we need much help on Defense, but I think fixing the OL will bear fruit much sooner. We have some talent on the Offensive side of the ball, but as injuries mounted our OL couldn't, didn't hold up. We don't know if we have a QB or not 'cause he was lookin' out his earhole every time he got the ball.
    WE go D with the first pick, barring trade, then we try to fix BOTH lines!:ffic:
     
  37. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero

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    I agree, Chambers is an average to good reciever in the league. He makes all the circus catches, but drops every one that hits him in the numbers. he gives up on routes and does not defend the INT on a regular basis.
     
  38. OSaban

    OSaban New Member

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    You're holding on to the myths in here like grim death. "Fix the OL" because its the be all and end all and "our line" sucks are two positions that haven't been proven by anyone in here. Your SD winning argument doesn't work for me, either.

    Indy's defense collapsed and Billy Volek stepped up. Big difference. Michael Turner is also better than any RB who played for Miami after week 7. The fact that San Diego's backups are better than the clowns we started for most of the year doesn't prove that the Charger 0-line won the game yesterday.

    How many balls has Chambers dropped? He seems to have elevated the SD offense.

    We do know that Cleo "out of bounds at the 4 with a chance to get back in the game" is not a QB. Beck, we'll see about but there was nobody playing RB, WR, TE or QB for Miami in the latter stages of the season who would make any offensive line look good save for Lo. Booker who can create and make people miss
     
  39. Step one: you need to evaluate every postion on the team and give them a grade.
    Step two: you have to look at the upcoming drafts and FA's becoming available over the next few seasons
    Step three: Using steps 1 and 2 decide how you can the most out of your resources, picks, money and currently signed talent

    Sitting here and arguing over one particular postion over another dosnt work. This is a team sport a good skill postion players give relief to the other postions just as good play from lines give skill postions opprotunities for big plays.

    We need upgrades at everypostion we have not to mention depth, the only way to do it is to take the best players available to you when it is your turn to pick and to take the best FA,s you can afford as they become available. This is what Parcels was hired to do so let him do his job and lets see what he does
     
  40. sabanhater

    sabanhater New Member

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    I also learned that drinking a lot of beer on Saturday gives me a BIG headache on Sunday.
     

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