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Confused about Beck's season

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Phincanuck, Jan 13, 2008.

  1. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Brees is a fair comparison Adam, it took Brees 2 yrs to become any good, an Peyton seemed overwhelmed in Indy his rookie yr.
     
  3. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Why not? Because he showed "sparks of greatness" in his first four starts where he threw for 11 Interceptions, was sacked 11 times, completed 56% of his passes and had a rating of 53? Gee, I somehow must have missed those sparks of greatness when Peyton looked like a deer in the headlight despite Tarik Glenn protecting his blindside and Marvin Harrison lined up at wideout.

    I can't help but wonder how misty-eyed some people perceive the rookie performances of other QBs. Manning looked horrible in his first four starts. I remember when in the old forum people started to demand Beck in there "to see if he's the guy". I asked them what they would do if he threw for 11 Interceptions, got sacked 11 times, completed 56% of his passes and had a rating of 53 in his first four starts. They all said "get rid of him". And when I pointed out that they just got rid of Peyton Manning, I never got any answer.

    I'm certainly not the world's greatest QB expert, but I've seen enough of Beck to know that I want to see more. I see a smart kid with a great arm. I see poise. I see an oustanding touch. I see a quick release. And I see a lot of guts. This kid wants to get better and he isn't scared of going throught the pains of doing just that. Did he make mistakes? Absolutely. Should he have done a better job of ball security? No doubt about it. But that's part of being a rookie on a 1-15 team that's lacking its #1 wideout and #1 running back to boot. I honestly don't know what people expected from the kid under these circumstances, but I know that I expected him to do a lot worse than he actually did.
     
  4. FinaticalOne

    FinaticalOne New Member

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    ohh puhleeze, let's not jump over the cliff now. Cleo has been in the league for 4 years IN THE SAME OFFENSIVE SYSTEM. That makes a big difference when you're trying to compare Lemon vs. Beck. Lemon better had outplayed Beck under those circmstances. The kid needs time, just like any other rookie QB, and four games is no where near enough time to expect him to play like a veteran.

    Beck endured a very tough rookie season, he took his bumps and when listening to his post game interviews; he stayed positive and always talked about continuing to get better. It's even tougher to perform well when your teammates don't have faith in you. There shouldn't be any fingers pointed at him, our team stunk up the field long before he got on the field. Our team stinking up the field was the reason why he got on the field in the first place. After watching his first three games, I was pretty much down on Beck's play until I watched the last game; his performance encouraged me that he has potential to be a good QB, and bringing in a good QB coach (David Lee) should help him immensely.

    I don't know what Beck's future is under Parcell's, Ireland, and our new coach; but I hope he is given a chance to develop here before any hasty decisions are made about him. I'm getting tired of watching our players not work out here after a short stint to only watch them thrive on another team (Add Atari Bigby as the latest name to that long list):mad:
     
  5. mike_vee

    mike_vee New Member

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    what did you expect from Beck this year? he was put in when the teams # 1, 2 and 3 hb's where hurt for christ sakes he had Samon Gado as the starter and he was cut and resigned that same week. now let me ask you all if you are a defenseive coordinator and your opponet has a rookie qb, rookie wr, no te, and and no running game, what would you do? blitz the living daylights out of them, don't forget our oline did a great job this year considering they where supose to be our weekest area but they're not good enough to withstand both phily and pittsburgh's pass rush, which i believe where the two best bitzing teams in the nfl this year. and then they playled buffalo which are not to bad either on defense. and don't forget that the first two games he played in where just terrible weather conditions. all i am saying is i think he did alright for what was a really bad situation for him. he's seems really smart and i think it'll just make him that much better, or atleast i'm hopeing so. lets give him a chance and support and if he continues to struggle then i'm sure Parcels will make the right move.
     
  6. Linus

    Linus Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There was no chance of success for Beck this season. I don't really understand what people were expecting. Almost every quarterback struggles greatly his first few games/first year (yes, even Manning, Brady, etc) and it's always difficult to watch. But, with this Beck situation, there was even additional and completely unnecessary pressure on him.

    Cam Cameron had no intentions of getting Beck in there this year. He got no first team snaps in practice, even when Green went down. Instead of letting him practice after the Giants game during the bye, and having his first game be at home versus the Bills (one where Cam said he was the more ready qb) he got the chance to start on the road, in Philly, against a blitz-happy team. I do not understand why he was still sharing snaps with Lemon in practice anyway. It takes a lot of time to get timing down, even with the qb/center exchange.

    So, already, Beck probably isn't even really prepared for the game he's put into. But, everyone wanted him in immediately...Wayne, Marino, Shula, fans. All these people wanted him to come in and magically win games for a WINLESS team, possibly the worst team in the past 30 years. There's some more unnecessary pressure. Then you have the veterans on the team who didn't like that he was put in over Lemon, who started basically rebelling against Cam by giving up. I don't think you guys realize that there is more than just going out and blocking and throwing the ball. Here's a ROOKIE, playing for a WINLESS team, with players who are already bad enough who don't think you have the right to be playing. Your coach is so scared that he runs on first down every single time, so that you must throw on 2nd and 12. But, what is the 2nd down play...a 2 yard pass.

    So, we have rustiness, bad playcalling, a winless season on the line, angry fans, a cutdown playbook, a terrible indecisive coach, a team that doesn't even want to play for you, and a team who can't catch even if they do get good balls thrown to them. Sprinkle that with all the Brady Quinn and Dan Marino shadow talk, and it's enough to drive any qb crazy, let alone the rookie qb. How on earth was he supposed to gain any confidence?

    Now, I'm not saying he's going to be great or a bust. But, it's getting absurd, the expectations in 4 games of the guy. Face it, he wasn't just a rookie, he was a rookie on a terrible team with a coach who couldn't handle any facet of the game. A recipe for disaster. And let's be realistic, Beck made some nice throws, especially to Ginn..he actually could check down receivers, unlike Lemon who glues his eyes on to one receiver..he seems to be tough, unlike Lemon who couldn't even dive into the endzone against NE. In my opinion he outplayed Roethlisberger in Pittsburgh, and I think we could have won if Hagan and Marty Booker could catch or Cam Cameron could call a game correctly. Then Beck makes some good throws, even on the move, in the Cincy game, but still noone gives the guy any credit whatsoever. "It was prevent D" Well, basically any team's prevent D was better than our scoring-machine of an offense.

    And how do peole plan to fix this Beck mess? By drafting a QB first overall? Oh yes, because that new QB who will be one inch taller will change our whole offense. He will be NFL-ready on the spot, that inch is very important!! No, he'll be a rookie QB on a bad team once again, and we'd go through this cycle once more. Let's see what we have in Beck next season. bring in a FA qb, and draft one in a later round for some qb competition. If Beck pans out, great! If not, we still have high draft picks coming in the future to get our career franchise qb. And if we don't have any high picks, that means our team was doing something right....Sorry for the long rant, but I'm bound to go mad reading this stuff all offseason lol.
     
  7. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    I think Beck's fumbles and interceptions were a result of him trying to do so much and not staying within himself.

    The kid was getting ZERO help. From blockers not blocking, to running backs not picking up yards, to receivers not holding onto balls.

    His first two games, against VERY aggressive defenses from Pittsburgh and Philly, he had zero turnovers. He also had zero points. I think at this point all of the speculation started to weigh on him and he felt like he had to do something special to get the Dolphins to score. All of a sudden he starts turning the ball over.

    When you watch Manning and Brady they look so relaxed. They take what the defense gives them and rarely force a play that isn't there.

    I think Beck felt a ton of pressure to MAKE something happen, but he didn't have the experience to see what was there and what wasn't against an NFL defense.

    It's kind of like when you are 16 and first learning to drive. There are so many things you are thinking about that just getting out of the driveway is an adventure. Years later you can drive halfway across the country while zoned out and doing a monthly budget in your head.

    Beck is still at a point where he has to consciously think about every piece of his game instead of letting his subconscious do some of the work. I think in some situations he is thinking so hard about what a defense is bringing that his concentration lapses on other things...like cleanly handling the snap.

    Bottom line is to throw a rookie qb in there you need to give him a lot of help, which we didn't do. We asked WAY too much of any kid and now want to crucify him because of it.
     
  8. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I don't think anyone saying that Elway showed greatness his rookie year actually saw those games. His rookie year was a disaster and Denver fans boo'd him off the field in a couple of games.
     
  9. zach8111

    zach8111 New Member

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    well i guess you will have we have to see him FOR A WHOLE YEAR, before we can judge him. he only has a few starts behind a bad o-line, thats right i said bad. i dont know why everyone is so high on our mediocre O-line. and his targets were the greatest...ginn (struggling rookie, which most rookies arent amazing and he has a good upside), marty booker (up and down at times, drops passes) hagan (cant catch a cold if his life depended on it) and our "savior" camarillo (had four career catches before that TD) david martin (TE that cant block and isnt much better at catching....and o ya our rb situation. if he had played with a RB that could pass block or run like ronnie thaen he would have done better. once he got hurt noone was respecting the run and everyone was in coverage. they didnt have to blitz cuz there three man d line was getting to the QB
     
  10. sabanhater

    sabanhater New Member

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    I'm going to give the guy some time to develop. 4 games doesn't do it for me. I need to see more.... let the kid have a whole off season with the 1st team offense and maybe we draft another QB in the later rounds as a back-up plan.
     
  11. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    So far what Ive loved is the short and intermediate accuracy in the pocket. You say he can throw on the move accurately. If he can, then he has a chance to be good. He will need it to succeed because being a pocket ppasser at 6'2" isnt a formula for success, Brees being the exception to the rule
     
  12. thedayafter

    thedayafter New Member

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    Unreal.... honestly!

    At least Linus has a rational POV...

    Cam had Beck run the scout team for the first 7 weeks... meaning... he never took a rep of the Dolphin offense.... let alone with any of the players...

    After TG went down... Beck still ran the scout team for 3 weeks... Cam and Randy didn't even sign another "arm" for 3 weeks....

    Over the bye week.. Cam gave the team off... and then on top of that split reps in a regular game week practice schedule... according to Cam Beck looked to be the better prepared that week (at home) but decided on Lemon... and he played poorly... BUT.. Cam also decided to not give Beck ANY reps in the game....

    And then the guy gets thrown to the wolves in 2 of the toughest places to play in the league... and OH.. we had no running game either.... and Cam called nothing but Wonderbread plays...

    Bottom line.... Cam failed to maximize Becks development based on his (Cams) intial decision that Beck would only sit and watch this season... this just proves to be another in a long line of Cams stubborn POV's that proved flawed...

    Fact is.... as a rule....it takes 3-5 years for QB's to really develop in the league... and only the pressure from cap numbers and FA have forced unprepared guys to start... and oh.. the relentless media and fans living in the microwave society!

    Will Beck become a productive pro... maybe.. maybe not... do we need to continue to draft QB's... no question... will Lee be the guy to put into place a Dolphin QB develop prgram... let's hope so...

    Give Beck some time.. but keep drafting and looking...
     
    dolphindebby and Linus like this.
  13. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    This is good General
     
  14. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I saw sparks of greatness in Jamarcus Russell's game and he sucked if you go by stats. But I saw some throws that just floored me. Personally I dont like Russell but I saw why he was drafted #1 even though I still dont think he'll succeed, I saw phenomenal potential. Same with Manning and Elway. Every now and then there were some throws that made you just say wow. How many of those did you see with Beck?
     
  15. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    I think we like Henne and Flacco...maybe Booty too. If we feel one represents value later, then no it wouldn't shock me, but I don't think the war room has drafting a QB as a priority.
     
  16. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Guess you would say the same about Jamarcus Russell because his stats sucked but I saw several passes that were just amazing and showed the potential he has. Saw the same with Elway and Peyton in their rookie year. Saw the same with Ryan Leaf and Jeff George also so it certainly doesnt mean success when you see it but at least you see the potential
     
  17. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    I think Jamarcus, like all physically gifted qbs, will ultimately be made or broken by how his decision making process improves in the NFL. I don't care how strong you are or what wheels you have. Until you get to the level where you can look out at a defense and know what they are bringing at you before the ball is hiked you will never be a top shelf qb.
     
  18. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I agree that success resides in the brain and the heart but I was talking about the physical skills that will seperate you from the pack. To be great I think you need all three Brains, heart and arm. Actually nowadays you need a 4th a touch of legs also, not a runner but with some mobility
     
  19. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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  20. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    I think the brains trump the arm at least. Heart is so hard to quantify and judge.

    Brady and Manning are both middle grade physically when you judge qbs. Neither really has a cannon arm. (Although everyone thinks Manning does because he delivers such a nice long ball.) If you know what will be there before it is there you are really set up for success.
     
  21. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Once again I agree. You need bottom line arm strength. Brady to me is the definition of the floor. Pennington is a great example of someone who has the head but not the arm. Our own Fiedler was another so you definitely need a floor for arm strength. But the more important aspect is what you touched on - accuracy - which Beck has displayed when in the pocket on short and intermediate throws. Where he has failed to display accuracy IMO is in the long game and when on the move. The game has evolved to the point where you have to be able to throw while on the run accurately. Boomer has said he can do it. I havent seen it in the pro game so far so hopefully he can bring it next year. I think Beck's biggest problem was presnap reads which you touched on in your earlier post. It wasnt the line so much as it was Beck not knowing who was coming andf from where and who was his hot read. That you can just chalk up to rookie reality but the physical skills of deep accuracy and on the move accuracy is what I'll need to see to feel comfortable with him
     
  22. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    Fiedler didn't have the arm strength to be an NFL qb, and the head was touch and go. Sometimes he played a great game and sometimes he made some Joey Harrington-esque throws. But MAN did he have heart. That guy had the heart of a lion. I'll always remember the play against the Jags where Ricky reversed field and Fiedler threw his body in front of Marcus Stroud to clear the way for a touchdown.

    I think the game was running at a million miles an hour for Beck. He is definitely a smart kid so if we can get him comfortable enough where he can stay back there and play within himself, THEN we will be able to evaluate what we've got.

    Revkev made an allusion to Volek leading the Chargers to victory last Sunday. I think a better example is Parcell's own Giants in 1991 when Jeff Hostetler came in for an injured Phil Simms to beat the Bills.

    If we draft a qb I'm thinking it will be in round four or later. There's never a harm in taking flyers on a qb. But we have too much invested to put out an early pick for one. What I would bet my bottom dollar on is that somewhere in this offseason we acquire a vet that may not be a sexy name, but will be a known quantity.
     
  23. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Quite a couple actually. There were five or six plays where Beck showed as much touch as I've ever seen a quarterback put on a ball. In fact, I've seen a lot more good things from Beck than I've seen from Russell. That's not to say that Beck played perfectly or even well - preciously few rookie QBs do so in their first starts - but that I've seen that Beck has all the tools a good NFL QB needs. He's got the arm, he's got the release, he's got the smarts and he's got the pocket awareness. Plus, he's got the desire to learn. I don't see al of that in Russell. There, I see a terrific athlete but not a great quarterback.
     
  24. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    The Dolphins may have an investment in Beck but Parcells doesnt. One thing everyone will learn about Parcells is that the franchise doesnt matter. This is all about Bill from here on out. If he doesnt like Beck, Ryan is going to be considered
     
  25. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    Volek didn't have to do too much but i think he was 3/4 on his passing..., I agree we'll draft a Qb and then we'll say that he was ranked on our scale much higher...:lol:
     
  26. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I saw one pass that impressed me. I think it was against the Eagles where he threw a 10 to 15 yard crossing pattern with touch over an underneath linebacker and in front of a DB with perfect touch. I need to see more. I didnt see the Cinncy game and apparently he looked good against them so I hope that's where you saw the other 4 passes
     
  27. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    Parcells still has to maximize what he has if he wants to go anywhere. I think the comments from him, Ireland, and the quick hiring of a qb coac all indicate at the very least at least in interest in what Beck can do. I think Ryan is extremely unlikely because top sheld d-line help is actually as hard to find as a qb and it is right there at pick #1. I think Parcells is much more likely to get a guy like Henne later as an insurance policy.
     
  28. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    LOL nothing new there. EVERYONE postures. It's amazing because according to the GMs there has never been a bad draft in the NFL.
     
  29. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I read Ireland's and Parcells comments regarding our QB position as an indictment of Beck but I guess its all in the interpretation. QB trumps defense for Parcells. He needs a QB he feels comfortable with above all else. After QB its OLB, DE, DT, ILB, CB,S, OT, RB, TE and finally WR so defense is definitely what will be addressed either starting with our first rounder or 2nd rounder. Phillip Merling, Jeremy Thompson are two DEs we can pick up in the 2nd and later rounds that will put a smile on all Dolphin fans faces. Henne is definitely in the Parcells mold but Ryan actually is more so. I think it all comes down to what Parcells thinks of Beck
     
  30. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    I do think Beck has very good potential, but to say he even approached being a decent rookie QB is just flat out wrong. As for comparing him to Manning's first several game, they were somewhat comparable during their first 4 games, but Manning didn't have the luxury of sitting on the bench for the first 10 weeks of the season learning the offense. Manning was thrown into the fire from day one. Manning was also 4 years younger, so it's an invalid comparison....
     
  31. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    Apples to brussel sprouts comparison here....Manning also had a young Marvin Harrison, and a better o-line than ours.

    The real bottom line is the Dolphins failed John Beck before we sent him out there. We put him in a no win situation.

    Whether or not he pans out is another matter, but the evidence is tainted at this point.
     
  32. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    Absolutely
     
  33. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    Manning had Harrison for 12 games, Faulk, and pretty much nothing else. Unless you think Torrence Small and Jerome Pathon were anyting greater than below average. Saying the '98 Colts had a better OL because of one player is also a stretch. There was a reason the Colts had the #1 overall pick, they were devoid of talent pretty much everywhere save for RB, 1 WR, and a LT......

    I'm well aware that John Beck had very little to work with, that still doesn't change the fact that his performance was about as bad as one could get.

    Adjusted QB ratings:
    Cleo Lemon: 67.02
    John Beck: 42.85

    Cleo Lemon may have 4 years experience, but he was never an average staring QB to begin with, let alone a good starting QB. Cleo Lemon is a career 3rd stringer. John Beck was very likely the worst QB in the NFL with atleast 100 snaps.
     
  34. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Jeff Garcia?
     
  35. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    You did this in an earlier posting about Derrick Anderson...an argument to the effect of well yeah he had Kellen Winslow and Braylon Anderson...but who ELSE did he have?

    Having two great players is ENORMOUS. There are very few teams in the NFL that have two skill position players like Edwards and Winslow OR Faulk and Harrison. Beck had zero. Beck had no fallback, no help.

    Once again there is no way to evaluate Beck's 2007 season, the evidence is tainted.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2008
  36. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    So what your saying is, apart from two first ballot Hall of Famers, Peyton had no one to throw to or hand off to?

    And is that the same Jerome Pathon that caught 50 passes that first year?

    And is that the same Torrance Small that caught 45 passes that first year?

    You probably forgot two of the AFC's premier tight ends in Marcus Pollard and Ken Dilger.

    And you probably forgot that he had All Pro LT Tarik Glenn and Pro Bowl alternate RT Adam Meadows. And Larry Moore and Steve McKinney at G.

    These are easy mistakes to make.
     
  37. Breed

    Breed New Member

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    In the case of the Browns, I was merely stating the overall weapons weren't as great as what many posters made them out to be. There's no doubt the Browns are in the top 10-13 in overall weapons on offense (probably in the 7-10 range), but many posters seem to think that having Winslow and Edwards is enough to make any offense very good, that simply isn't true. Adding Joe Thomas and Jamal Lewis helped a lot, but that isn't going to make up 10+ points a game unless you have a pretty good QB to go along with it.

    The evidence is "tainted"? We had a career 3rd stringer with 4 years experience putting up an adjusted QB rating 24.17 points higher than Beck. When dealing with adjusted QB ratings, the number is almost always significantly lower than the traditional QB rating, making the 24.17 point differential even larger. It's probably more accurate to say that John Beck made Cleo Lemon look like Brett Favre than Ben Roethlisberger.

    It doesn't matter how bad Beck was, people will always find ways to excuse his play.
     
  38. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent

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    You are guilty of major oversimplification. Beck is a rookie. Beck was in a horrible situation. Beck's numbers are egregious and invalid. I don't care how Lemon did. I don't care how average Lemon's skill set is. Lemon was a vet with years of experience at running the EXACT same system. Lemon also is more mobile than Beck allowing him to get away from the beasts running him down.

    The fallacy in your thinking is your belief that I am 100% "sold" on Beck. I have just remained objective. He can not be evaluated from the results we have seen. You have shown to have an agenda and made up your mind after a four game stretch by a rookie.

    You are basing the thesis of your argument on pure statistical data. I know Beck's numbers are awful. I think our team was pretty awful in general last year and expecting a rookie qb to elevate that is naive.
     
  39. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Yes and no

    It is a valid comparison in that you can look at their first four games to see what they accomplished. It's unfair in the fact that Peyton had a larger body of work in his first season than Beck does. If you were going to say that Peyton put up X amount of yards and TDs in his first season and Beck didn't, then that would be an unfair argument seeing that Beck only played in a handfull of games.
     
  40. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    I'm pretty sure that I read the players were rooting for Beck to get his playing time. Not 100% sure on that though.
     

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