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JT on confidence in Camerom

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by toto, Dec 6, 2007.

  1. toto

    toto Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/football/pro/dolphins/sfl-flspdolnotes06sbdec06,0,3353058.story




    I think to answer the question about confidence in the coach with "I believe in the guys in this locker room" speaks volume...
     
  2. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ya, I'm about over Jason Taylor at this point. He's not quite been a cancer or malcontent, but he's been close this season. Whining about his role when he should pretty clearly know why he hasnt been used like he was last season, dropping hints about wanting to play elsewhere, etc. Considering how he's played this season, he needs to shut the **** up.

    That's kind of the pitfall of attributing leadership skills to players when you arent involved in the locker room. More often than not, you're just projecting on good players(In this case, formerly good players).
     
  3. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

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    This.
     
  4. abNORMal

    abNORMal New Member

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    How in the he** can you have confidence in a coach that has led you to an 0-12 record??
     
  5. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    exactly.

    now I'm not saying that there couldn't be reasons for a player to have confidence in a coach because of the record.....but it is painfully apparent that he just doesn't have confidence in Cam. And that to me trumps ALL the posts on here of people claiming we as fans need to have confidence in him.
     
  6. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

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    I don't think it has anything to do with Cam's acumen as a head coach and has more to do with the fact that JT knows that Cam is doing things now, that don't have any bearing on the 2007 season, and he's steamed about it.

    Perhaps, if JT and his defensive teammates weren't regularly be run into the ground almost every week, there might have been some reason for Cam to stay focused on this year.
     
  7. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    Over Yonder
    Jimmy Johnson's first year: 1-15 Super Bowl Wins:2

    Tom Landry's first year: 0-11-1 Super Bowl Wins:2

    Bill Parcell's first year: 3-12-1 Super Bowl Wins:2

    Bill Belichick's first year: 6-10 Super Bowl Wins:3

    Bill Walsh's first year: 2-14 Super Bowl Wins:3

    Chuck Knoll's first year: 1-13 Super Bowl Wins:4

    These coaches all started their NFL coaching careers with seasons of 10 or more losses. Now they own a combined 16 Super Bowl Rings. Please don't tell me that losing 12 games should give you reason to jump ship on your coach. You need more reason than that. Not saying that Cameron hasn't given us more reason either, but our record is not enough to get him fired IMO. And history supports that.
     
  8. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    if your first part is true, he should be steamed. And if Cam is doing what you say, it says a lot about his acumen as a head coach.

    and perhaps if they had ANY type of coaching, they wouldn't be getting run into the ground every week.

    It amazes me that JT through 12 games can have 8 sacks, 3 FF, 3 PD, 1 INT and 1 TD while Cam has 0 in the only stat that counts, wins.....and people on this board will take Cam's side. Unbelievable.

    JT is an all-time great. Cam's legacy is likely to be as the only coach to ever lead a non-expansion team to 0 wins in a season.
     
  9. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    12 losses not enough for lack of confidence? how about lack of improvement. We come into our 12th game against our biggest rival, in our most favorable matchup, at home.....and play our worst game of the year. Blown out by a team that will draft top-5 come April. How are you manufacturing ANY postives from?
     
  10. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    also....

    Of those coaches to start with poor records and then go on to win multiple Super Bowls. The only coach to win his rings with a different team than the one he started with was Belichick.

    Let me make this very clear. I DO NOT WANT TO BE THE NEXT CLEVELAND BROWNS!

    I would much rather be the next 49ers, Cowboys, or Steelers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2007
  11. testtubetimmy

    testtubetimmy New Member

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    Come on man, has Cameron done ANYTHING this season to inspire any sort of confidence for the future? He's lost the players in his own locker room, we're the laughing stock of the league, and most importantly, people are no longer paying to see the Fins play. And that is really what this league is about.

    Expect Huizenga to do SOMETHING to get ticket sales back up.
     
  12. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    How many of the players that he brought in has he lost? Seems that the only ones that are upset are the ones that need to win this year the most. Maybe our veterans need to start putting the team ahead of themselves and quit crying about the rebuild and start doing their job that they are getting paid to do. I doubt there is a clause in Jason Taylor's contract that says,"if we are winless past the mid-point of the season, then you don't have to believe in the coach, and it is ok to do things your own way." or "if you think Miami is playing for the future, then you can get mad and lose a bunch of weight and become useless on the field." Contracts aren't made like that. He signed up to give us all he has. UNCONDITIONALLY!!!
     
  13. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    does someone really need to make a list of all the pathetic coaches who never one even one playoff game who started off as bad. I bet that list would be a lot longer!!

    Or we could wait till the end of the year and make a list of all the coaches who ever led their non-expansion NFL team to a winless record. It should be a really easy list to make and will likely have on name on it: Cam Cameron.
     
  14. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

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    yes, it does, and it says that he doesn't have the super ego that tells him to keep playing the same old players with no regard for the future, so that he can get that one precious win. As a fan, i applaud Cam for doing what he thinks he has to do to make this team better for the long term.
    You'd think after all these years they'd know that they were supposed to tackle the guy with the ball.
    Trent Cole has 9.5 sacks, 3FF and two FR.....If you said, "who?" I'd say "exactly"
     
  15. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The question is, what did those coaches show to make you think they were going to be quality coaches? Most of those guys were almost fired. What did they show, and what should they have been showing?

    I'm not entire sure losing the locker room at this point is something unexpected. Look around the league. Ravens players were complaining about Brian Billick like the first month in the season despite most of them playing under him long term and in alot better circumstances.
     
  16. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    or how about the next Patriots.....who ditched Raymond Berry for Rod Rust in 1990. Ditched Rust AFTER ONLY 1 SEASON (1-15). Hired McPhearson. Ditched him after 2 sub-par years and then wound up with a bunch of jackasses named Parcelss, Carroll and Belichick. Wow....they really screwed up that franchise by switching head coaches so much!!! I don't know that they'll ever recover!
     
  17. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Long time lurker, first time poster...

    I want to wretch everytime someone brings up Jimmy Johnson and Bill Walsh and a few other hall of famers who had poor first seasons. Beyond the fact that the eras are completely different now (in a salary cap/parity age any team, regardless of injuries should win 2-3 games), coaches like Jimmy had the credibility to overcome a bad first season because they had accomlished something as a HEAD COACH. Jimmy won a national championship, Cam had a losing record in college. And don't bring up that he coached Indiana. If Mark Mangino can win at Kansas, you can win at Indiana.

    And last time I checked, we were winless, and arguably worse when we were at our healthiest.
     
  18. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    How many wins would we have if Bill Belichick was our head coach this year, with the same roster? Given his 10+ years of head coaching experience we would probably have about 3-4 wins. If you look at a really good team and they have an MVP type of player. Then you say to yourself, "they couldn't win a game without that guy." Miami is a team without an MVP. We are the Colts without Peyton Manning, We are the Chargers without LaDainian Tomlinson, we are the Pats without Tom Brady. You see what I mean? You can't base everything on the coach's first season. You have to let him build his team first. We don't have our MVP yet. Maybe Beck will be that guy. Maybe McFadden. Maybe Dorsey. Maybe Ronnie. Who knows? But we can't continue to put blame where it isn't justly due. This team was messed up when Cam got here. He got rid of the overpayed players that didn't deserve their checks. And he went out and got a foundation for the team his is building. It would be insane to have a house appraised after laying the foundation. Same is true for our team.
     
  19. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    it is not his lack of ego that has him playing younger players, it is injuries. Some of his moves say just the opposite....such as sticking with Lemon when it was painfully obvious it was time for Beck. Not playing Jason Allen until the 17th safety was injured. What moves can you specifically point to that support your claim?

    why didn't I know that football is that simple? and on offense you're supposed to score touchdowns, right? and to think that all this time I thought that the were schemes and gameplans that actually meant something.

    If I said Trent Cole and you said "who?"......I'd think that you didn't watch a lot of football.
     
  20. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    Patriots without Brady, colts without Manning, chargers without LT....all beat this team by more than a touchdown.

    and how would you feel if you laid your foundation and months and months go by and there is still no progress? I guess you'd stick with that contractor?
     
  21. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So have we come to the point where even the expectation to win one game is unreasonable?

    For example, the expansion Cleveland Browns were the worst team I ever laid my eyes on. You might remember they actually started something called "Spergeon Wynn" at quarterback for a few games. And that team won 3games. Why is it unreasonable to expect something more than an expansion team? Say whatever you want about the state of our roster, and I agree it is in poor shape, but it is not worse than that Browns expansion team.

    If we had seen any improvement in Cam's game management, I might be more inclined to give him a pass, but we haven't. It's only gotten worse. You may not want a home appraised after the foundation is liad, but you'd like to make sure the foundation isn't cracked.
     
  22. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Same thing happened in Johnson's first year with the Cowboys.
     
  23. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Fair enough. But let's stick to that analogy for a moment: It certainly wasn't the master builder's fault that he had to bring the old house down, but can't we evaluate him based on the quality of the new foundation? Don't get me wong - I'm not saying that Cam should be fired, but I also think that it would be a mistake to give him a free pass solely because he inherited a mess. To me, it's all about how he handles the mess and paves the way for another house to be build. I was pretty high on Cameron up until the Jets game. We were losing, sure, but morale was high, players weren't quitting, and for the first time in what seemed to be like ages, we had a solid bunch of young players taking responsibility. The present was still a mess, but there was a silver lining. The Jets game - and the resulting reactions - however made me wonder. I'm not saying that one should read too much into Traylors postgame statement, but Cam seems to have reached that critical point where he either wins or loses the lockerroom and his players confidence. If one is to evaluate Cam, it should be an evaluation based on how his handles this situation. Can he get his players fired up again? Can he keep their confidence even if the winless nightmare continues? This season is a make or break year for Cameron; not because he's 0-12 but because he faces one of these situations that either make or break a headcoach. If I was Huizenga, the only question that would matter to me would be whether or not Cam's tough enough. The record, I could'nt care less about.
     
  24. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

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    We lost our best safety, the first game of the season. Since then, we have lost starter after starter in both our offense and defensive backfield due to injury or turnover. All that added up to being too much for untalented back-ups to overcome. So, the headcoach makes a decision to forget the rest of the season trying to win games, and starts playing youngsters so that we are in better shape next season with experienced players at more positions.

    All this has COMBINED to put us where we are, we are not sitting here solely because of Cam Cameron.

    The foundation isn't cracked, it's just now being poured.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2007
  25. jcthekid

    jcthekid New Member

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    I personally believe that he has indeed lost the locker room. Compared with the other coaches who have gone 0-12 (not many of them, by the way!), I wonder how many of them kept their locker room together? Especially with the veterans?
     
  26. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    right.....that explains why he played D.Darius, L.Thompson, C.Worrell, T.Tillman over J.Allen for half the year.

    why he continually sat L.Booker. why he waited so long to replace Lemon with Beck. why he continues to play M.Booker. why K.Traylor continues to play over P.soliai and S.Fifita.

    I am not in this post saying that any of these moves are right/wrong....but they certainly don't support what you say cam is doing.
     
  27. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    Well, let's give Cam some credit for not having lost it already. This has been the season from hell in a lot of ways (injuries, bad luck, questionable calls at precisely the wrong moment) and everyone who ever played sports at a competetive level knows how quick players are to lay the blame on their coach. Heck, someone has to be responsible, right? So I give Cam quite a lot of credit for keeping the team fired up and ready to roll through all of this mess. The Jets game obviously was different, but let's not jump to conclusions just yet. It was just one game after all. Let's see what the rest of the season brings.
     
  28. abNORMal

    abNORMal New Member

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    I for one would be pissed if JT, was happy about being 0-12 and thought the coach was doing a wonderful job. Granted it is just part of one season, but NFL stands for "Not For Long" and JT is a vet player coming to the end of his career, his window is closing, and you guys have to know that he is probably more frustrated than anyone else on the team. He has been loyal to the Phins his whole career and you guys want to blast him for not sticking up for an 0-12 coach....If Cam and JT both stick around and we start winning, JT will back the coach.
    And to compare Cam to other coaches with terrible first seasons that turned it around is a stretch at this point. Hopefully he will turn things around but for every coach that turned things around, there are at least five coaches that did not...
     
  29. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

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    The vets who aren't going to be here when we start winning again are the only ones who seem to have a problem. You don't see ANY of the young guys *****ing about being allowed to play. I'm sorry, I know it's sad to hear and it 's hard to say, but anybody drafted before the turn of the century, is no longer relevant to the direction that this team is going and if the coach 'loses" them, it really doesn't mean anything...not to me.

    That's business in the NFL.
     
  30. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Every team has injuries. How has Buffalo overcome just as many injuries as we have to be a decent team? Who is Fred Jackson? (he started at RB for Buffalo last week in a win) They've started a rookie QB on and off and he has played well enough to win 4 times.

    Buffalo has won because they do the little things that we don't do. They avoid penalties and turnovers and their coach puts them in a position to be competetive every week, even if they don't win. Is Buffalo that much more talented than us? I don't think so. Yet they are competing and winning and we are not. At some point a coach has to make a difference.
     
  31. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    here's the thing......was it just the Jet game? or have we just been fortunate in some of the other games to come away not looking too bad? the way things were going before last week....I let myself see the silver lining in the recent games....but there are other ways to look at the recent "close" games:

    The Eagles commit 3 boneheaded turnovers in the first half and we get a ST TD.....and still lose by 10 to the AJ Feeley led Eagles.

    We played the Steelers in a SWAMP....what can you really take from that game?

    the Jet game was to be a true measuring stick.....and look what happened. What excuse can you possibly give? Ohh, I got one, it was Mularkey's first game calling plays this year (and who's bright idea was that?)
     
  32. Big E

    Big E Plus sized porn star

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    You know what, it is what it is. JT could prob. have said alot worse then what he did.He's probably holding back, which is good. He's never been one to not tell his opinion so maybe him being "conformed" in his opinion is best. But give the guy a break, if he would have completely hung Cam out to dry we would be nailing him to the cross, he didnt and some of you still are crying for blood. The locker rooms opinion on Cam is important but they have to know that it lies on them just as much as it does him. Their are plenty of vets on this team that know how to do their jobs. And those who aren't know who they are.
     
  33. abNORMal

    abNORMal New Member

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    with regard to the second part of your statement....I guess I have to wonder, How, with essentially the same personnel plus Porter, can our defense be so much worse than last year if it is not due to coaching? Is it that they just suddenly got old, is it the injuries? I think it is a combination of all three, age, injuries and coaching. I don't think it is a fair assessment to say that the defense simply must figure out how to stop the run, isn't that the coaches responsibility also?
     
  34. abNORMal

    abNORMal New Member

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    I am not on the fire cam bandwagon yet, I hate all of the coaching turnover we have had...HOWEVUH!!! I am disappointed in all of the losses that have been close games, to me close games are lost by the coaches decision making. Granted Cam is a rookie head coach and there is probably a learning curve, but I wonder, of the coaches listed above how many close games did they lose (3 pts. or less) I'd look it up but I am at work:sad:
     
  35. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    Our 2 best players are the only ones qualify. they are all-time Dolphin greats, and their opinion matters less than that of a coach who has given this franchise absolutely NOTHING besides losses.

    sad. really sad.
     
  36. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

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    And, you'd play a guy that looks like crap in practice and can't make the coverage calls over somebody who practices hard and is smart enough to help the presnap defense on the field?
    Have you seen Booker's blocking?
    Loyalty to Lemon. After having coached him with both Miami and San Diego and after promising him a chance to be the man, he kept his word. even longer than most thought he should. That's an admirable trait in a players eyes.
    Don't you think it's possible that Cam doesn't believe that every spot on the roster is holding back a future starter??
    They certainly don't disprove it either.
     
  37. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    they certainly do give reason to doubt whether your theory is accurate. you haven't provided one clear example of youth being served over winning.
     
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  38. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    I believe it was. It's hard to evaluate passion, confidence and attitude from your couch, but I sensed a lot of it in the first 11 weeks. Look at the body language of the players in the 2nd half of the Steelers game and compare it to the 2nd half of the Jets game. There's difference a plenty. Or take into account the numerous reports about great confidence and chemisty in the locker room despite the losing nightmare. More than one writer actually said that this wasn't the locker room of an 0-something team.

    I don't know what happened in the Jets game. Maybe it was just one of those days. But it sure felt like quitting. On the bright side, however, it does give us the chance to see if Cam can get his team to bounce back. I'm really looking forward to the Bills game. Not because I see us winning (I'm probably never going to pick the Dolphins again, ever) but because I want to see how Cam handled this week's pressure. He's getting a lot of heat from everywhere and if he's a good coach, then we'll see a team seeking to make up for last week's blunder. These days, beggars can't be chosers.
     
  39. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

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    At this point in their careers, trying to win games for them, is no longer conducive to the future good of the Miami Dolphins franchise.

    I agree, it IS sad. I'm sorry that JT and Zach Thomas spent their whole careers having a team and owner that bent over backwards to try and make these guys winners and it just never happened but, I won't allow that sentimentality to cloud my judgement moving forward.
     
  40. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    No. The reason those players weren't put in earlier is because they weren't ready to assume those roles. Cam Cameron will not put a young player into the game that isn't ready to play. Jason Allen had to learn that he needed to do more in the film room to get ready to play. Lorenzo Booker had trouble learning his playbook, doesn't play special teams, and isn't a good blocker in the passing game. Cam Cameron was not going to play John Beck before he was ready, and to be honest with you, the offensive players around John Beck weren't ready for him either. It's hard to throw a rookie quarterback into action when he simply doesn't have that much talent to work with around him. It would have been a lot different had Ronnie Brown not gotten injured. In Ronnie Brown, you at least had a reliable player that could help you in the passing game with his blocking and receiving and a player that can take pressure off you with his running ability.

    But, you want to see things that have improved with Cam so far.

    1. The offensive line. The improvement in the offensive line is marked over the 2006 season, and it isn't just because Samson Satele was drafted to play center. Hudson Houck is a great offensive line coach, but Cam Cameron made some changes with the blocking schemes and also put out the ultimatum that certain players get into better shape. As a result, the Dolphins have their best offensive line unit since Richmond Webb and Keith Sims were on the same side in the early '90s.

    2. Ronnie Brown. Before he tore his ACL after making a tackle on an interception return, Ronnie Brown was having a career year and was leading the NFL in yards from scrimmage. It took Cam 3 games to figure out what he had in Ronnie Brown, but once he finally realized that he had one of the top 5 runners in the game, Ronnie's game took off.

    3. Channing Crowder. He started out slow after being moved to middle linebacker, but Channing's play has stepped up as he has gained comfort in that position. A lot of the improvement he has made as a MLB as well as the improvement the defense has made over the past 4 weeks is due to Cam becoming more involved in the defense than he was early in the season. The Dolphins now have reason to believe that Channing is indeed their future at the MLB position, and I think one of the sources of tension between the veterans and Cam at this point in time is Cam's decision to place Zach Thomas on IR.

    4. Jason Allen. It took Jason Allen a while before things started to click with him, but since he has been put in at free safety, he has played outstanding football. A lot of that is because Jason has the physical ability to be a star at safety, but a great deal of his improvement is the fact that Cam made him realize that he had to put more work into his film study. As a result, we now have reason to believe that Jason Allen will be a fixture at free safety for a long time now.

    5. Will Allen. Will Allen is having the best year of his career, and it was Cam's idea to start using him more as a blitzing cornerback over the past 3-4 games.

    6. Rodrique Wright. Guess who's idea it was to start putting Vonnie Holliday at the 5 technique position and putting Rod Wright at the 3 technique position? Cam Cameron. As a result, Rod Wright has played his best football over the past three games and looks like he can at least be looked at as a potential starter going into camp next season.

    So, yes. There are definitely some positives I have seen from Cam Cameron and his coaching staff, and I'm not willing to give up on them and throw out this offensive system that I love because a few fans want a big name head coach.
     

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