1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why was it called the war of Northern Aggression?

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Fin D, Mar 1, 2009.

  1. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

    1,688
    617
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    Geroge Washington being against slavery is 100% false. He wasn't an outright proponent of spreading it, but he said nor did he make any move against it. He freed(according to his will) his slaves because he knew he would negatively viewed by history if he didn't. Contrary to popular belief, Washington was very much aware of his place in history and he did not want to jeopardize that.

    And tbh, i don't like Jefferson all that much. He was a good president and as an idealist he was wonderful, but he was such a damn hypocrite it is really difficult for me to like him at all.
     
  2. sking29

    sking29 What it takes to be cool

    7,053
    2,181
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    East Tennessee
    I have to ask what you do for a living. Because you just have so much knowledge on this stuff its amazing. However still I have always been taught that the Industrialization in the north was big part of the shift. Even though the compromise of 1820 outlawed slavery in the north hadn't it been pretty much done away anyway for such reasons as you mentioned along with industrialization?

    I agree totally with Washington because he was so middle of the road it is almost infuriating to find anything out about his personal life. :yes:

    As for Jefferson being a hypocrite well come on all politicians are hypocrites its a prerequisite for the job I think. Like you said his ideas are just too much for me to ignore, but then yet again I have a fondness for just about all of the founding fathers just because I find them so interesting.
     
    Dannyg28 likes this.
  3. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Ducken likes this.
  4. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member


    You just might want to rethink some of this. Slavery was big business in the north and in fact the first laws on the books, to enslave blacks, in the several states was passed in the New England states. The change came about because of wars and famine in Europe and the migration of whites looking for work. That fact along with the cold winters (causing a lack of work for the slaves - meaning the the slave owner got nothing while having to provide for the same) is in fact what killed off slavery as viable labor in the North proper yet the Northern Shipping industry was built on slavery and its continuation was due to that fact. Without northern shipping there would have been no southern slavery and without slavery northern shipping would have not survived early on; in fact the last slaver's Captain was hung in 1863after being caught.

    Some links to ponder:

    http://www.slavenorth.com/index.html

    http://www.slavenorth.com/slavenorth.htm

    http://www.slavenorth.com/denial.htm
     
    Themole, cnc66 and Ducken like this.
  5. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    If this is true, I'd be very interested in a link or 2 to back that up, not saying you are wrong but .........:shifty:
     
  6. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    There were slaves in the North right up to the passage of the 13th.

    Good for you, IMHO the study of history should be based on finding out the true facts and the interest there of. Just think of the Holicaust and the study of Hitler or our treatment of Orentials during WWII, not to get OT.

    Thats why I love studing about our history between 1800 and 1865 IMHO its the most telling period of why we are who we are today. The powers involved, for good and bad, are there for anyone to see if they will but look don't you think? I do.:wink2:
     
  7. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

    1,688
    617
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    a link to back up what? that he didn't do anything against or for slavery? i can't really give a link, its more of the absence of any evidence for either side. i've never heard a quote from him on either side of the issue, while Franklin,Adams,Jefferson, etc all have numerous quotes saying their piece on the issue. Washington, was a purposely coy individual(don't mistake me saying this as badmouthing the guy, he was an incredible man) and people seem to think because he spoke so softly and always acted grateful for all his opportunities, he worked his *** off specifically to get those opportunities. hell, Washington practically help set off the french and Indian war by speculating in ohio river valley.

    i also saw a history channel special on washington the other day(i know not all of the facts on the hisory channel are 100% accurate) that one of his slaves escaped and he tried desperately to get her back behind the scenes. and he also outfitted his house so that he could have slaves in Philly, where it was illegal
     
  8. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

    1,688
    617
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    there were slaves do to laws that allowed slavery if the person holding the slaves was technically a resident of the south and they could bring their slaves along with them as they traveled. theres a court case , i'll try and find that addresses this. the Missouri compromise of 1820 restricted slavery north of the mason-dixon line, or the 36 30 parrallel.


    edit: dred scott case is the name
     
  9. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

    1,688
    617
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    i'm 16, i go to school for a living :wink2:. the reason why i remember all this stuff is because i just recently learned it all(currently taking an A.P. U.S. history class) and i'm just generally interested in history. I read up about it all the time, and i watch the history channel the few times i do watch TV

    oh and industrialization played a factor, however the fact is there weren't large plantations full of slaves like in the south. The majority of slaveholders in America was the few plantation aristocrats(theres a name for it, forget it at the moment). more than half of slave holding families only owned 4 slaves.and only 2% owned more than 50(straight from my history text so i don't have a link). and NEs terrain just didn't allow for that sort of mass farming system. A quote i don't exactly remember the exact words from lincoln was "hate them not, for we would be just like them in a similar situation".

    and yah for all intents and purposes, slavery was outlawed in practically every northern state. The Missouri compromise provided a federal restriction against it.

    as for Jefferson, i think it has a lot to do for me, that he seemed to me atleast for me, seemed to almost present himself as this great moralist, and then compromised those same morals at every turn. He railed agaisnt slavery, he owned slaves. He railed against executive power, he made the largest executive power grab up to that time with the lousiana purchase.
     
  10. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

    1,688
    617
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    oh, no doubt that northern merchant and harboring were built on the back bone of slave labor. there are no innocent parties in this, the south is not the bad guy they are sometimes made out to be. Both sides are equally to blame. I was just explaining some of the reasoning why slavery was not very prevalent in the north.

    and they replaced that labor with wage slave immigrants from europe
     
  11. sking29

    sking29 What it takes to be cool

    7,053
    2,181
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    East Tennessee
    Wow. :eek:

    That is remarkable. Even if you are taking a class right now you are great at retaining information. Maybe the Civil War is your favorite topic but if you have this much knowledge generally in History you would be doing the world a disservice by not going after a career in that field. You should seriously consider doing that. :yes:
     
    Ducken and Dannyg28 like this.
  12. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

    1,688
    617
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    honestly, i can't pick just one era of American history i like the most and ya, i have a borderline photographic memory, my classmates hate me cause i destroy the curve every test.

    i really do enjoy learning about history, but i mean the career choices in history are sort of limited no?
     
  13. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

    31,582
    17,137
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    I've been gone four days, moving, getting new service and such. I just want to tell y'all that I was pleased to see a thread with 90 posts about the Secession War, I was licking my chops so to speak, then I began reading. Thank you one and all for such a great series of posts to come back to, I have learned a ton and enjoyed myself doing it. I will have to go back through and respond or comment on some of the stuff, well done fella's.
     
    sking29, azfinfanmang, Ducken and 3 others like this.
  14. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Well here is a little evidence you just may want to read then:

    http://www.pbs.org/georgewashington/classroom/slavery3.html

    The boldness is mine.:wink2:
     
    Dannyg28 and cnc66 like this.
  15. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

    1,688
    617
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    good find.

    Kind of goes contrary to the 2 stories history channel said. i'll look more into it a bit later, have some non historical homework i need to do atm.
     
    cnc66 likes this.
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Well, as I mentioned, 1 month listening to the Thomas Jefferson Hour over two shows a day and I've got a good feel for Jefferson and why he did things that mentioned.

    Jefferson was a dreamer, not a realist, when he wrote the Declaration of Independence he was mostly drawing on Enlightement principles of the day, that rhetoric would no doubt be common in the circles he visited.

    As a Classical Greek Scholar, he also knew that the Greecian Republics survived slavery, and such labor was what drove commerce in the Agrarian South, though he privately thought slavery was wrong he also was politik enough to realize if he wanted to be Governour he would have to keep silent on his private views in his early years so he could be elected and implement the ideas that benefitted Virginia as a whole.

    Founding UVA, or clearing the Ravenna River or writing the Religious Tolerance Act, he subourned his ideals for the practical.

    The Louisiana Purchase was as much a military decision as a anything else, France was withdrawing from North America, they were the dominant Land Military power at the time and they offered to leave for .3 cents an acre.

    Originally, the idea was to purchase New Orleans so commerce could flow down the Mississippi River because when the Spanish ran New Orleans, they effectively blockaded goods from the Ohio Valley from flowing through New Orleans, Napolean's Representitive surprised the delegation by offering the whole territory, they accepted on the spot and the Treaty was passed.

    IMO, the one lesson to learn from Jefferson is compromising one's ideals does not pay off in the long run, in fact oen can do 1,000 good things only to have that compromise overshadow all 1,000.


    It's an interesting show, he covers Alexander Hamilton completely, and the Lewis and Clark episode is top notch:

    http://www.jeffersonhour.org/?id=16
     
    cnc66, gafinfan and Dannyg28 like this.
  17. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

    1,688
    617
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    http://www.ushistory.org/presidentshouse/slaves/oney.htm

    well heres a link about the slave one. Theres also a book on her life.

    http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/...ogy&guid=20070607174030&dcitc=w19-502-ak-0000

    heres a link about the passageway. now from what i remember on hsitroy channel they said he hid the slaves due to legal reasons, according to the discovery channel link he just did it to save face.
     
  18. Ducken

    Ducken Luxury Box Luxury Box

    10,018
    5,152
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Lower Delaware
    Oh crap Daddy's back!! Everone clam up, and get back to cleaning our rooms.:tongue2:

    Hope the move went well, it can be such a pain in the butt. I lost so much stuff when we moved a few years ago and we only went 2 miles:no:
     
    cnc66 likes this.
  19. sking29

    sking29 What it takes to be cool

    7,053
    2,181
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    East Tennessee
    Sort of but not really (if that makes sense). :lol:

    Probably the top thing to do in the area is teach whether that is at the regular school level or at the college level. If you really want a job that's all history all the time becoming a professor is your best bet but there are jobs like research assistants, archivists, and so forth out there. I will tell you though its not a rich man's career. I am still learning all this myself but if I can be of any service just ask. :up:
     
    cnc66 and Dannyg28 like this.
  20. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

    1,688
    617
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    being underpaid to deal with pita kids who probably don't care about what i am telling them? no thanks.

    there's really nothing in the field of history that interests me as a career choice. it'll probably end up being more of a hobby of mine than anything.
     
    cnc66 and sking29 like this.
  21. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Meaning that it never should have come to that. You and I know that today slavery, in any form, is unacceptable. Yet the early americans, in the 1600's, wrote laws making the african a slave for life and the courts backed the laws up by its rulings. All of this happening in the mid 1600's, why? Yet, with the writing of our Constitution we had the perfect chance to end it. Why not?

    http://www.slavenorth.com/chance.htm

    In my school years I was taught that the South "forced" slavery into the Constitution because it wouldn't have passed without them on board. Going by what I now know that was just a bunch of "Hog wash" and has no truth behind it what so ever.

    The boldness is mine.

    A perfect example of good men doing nothing and evil winning. Jefferson was right by doing nothing he and others killed over 600,000 of our best and brightest
     
    muscle979 likes this.
  22. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

    31,582
    17,137
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    nice stuff Ron.. man, I need some more time in my day to get to all this.
     
    gafinfan likes this.
  23. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

    31,582
    17,137
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    Danny, if it is a passion you will find a way to stay involved. I do not have a degree, but I'm seriously respected within the Florida history circles. I serve on the Boards for two museums. We have worked towards bringing local history into our school systems, and my input and participation has been integral to that end. In a week, I give a pioneer presentation in first person to 120 fourth graders.

    I sit on the Board of the Lake Worth Pioneers Association and we also support the efforts to bring local history to our children in Palm Beach County. 30+ thousand children have been reached by the efforts there, and I'm proud to say my Cousin Harvey Oyer III was the driving force that made it happen. He.. they, have offered it all to me and my efforts to bring this to fruition here in Martin County.

    Harvey just wrote a kids book about one of our ancestors to use in the Palm Beach County schools and that dovetails into the elementary school named in honor of him; Charles W. Pierce.. "Pierce Hammock Elementary"

    I also served a term on the Martin County Historic Preservation Board and have an open invitation to return. It was rewarding and frustrating at the same time. I also belong the the St. Lucie County Historical Players, a group dedicated to bring history alive to that County. We perform plays and in period happenings several times a year.

    The point is, you do not have to make a career out of history to be involved and have a REAL impact on our future. I am overjoyed to find a 16 year old lad so interested and learned about the subject, I feel you have much to look forward to, as do we as you grow. Well done my young friend.
     
  24. sking29

    sking29 What it takes to be cool

    7,053
    2,181
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    East Tennessee
    Good post Marty and I agree you don't have to have a degree in History to stay involved and you don't have to make a career out of it. I was just trying to recruit him. :wink2:

    However if you're someone like me and want to constantly surround yourself with the stuff a career may be the best option. I'll never say anymore that anything is definite as your plans can always change but hey if you want to make history your full time job there are options out there and that was another point I was trying to get across. :yes:

    Once again great post Marty and you helped me as well because knowing more ways to stay involved in History even if one day I did decide grad school is not the place for me this information will be really important. History is a broad field and there are many ways to be a Historian even if some snobs say you have to be a scholar (and trust me there are a lot of scholars that say that).:pity:
     
  25. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Marty,
    That is truly fantastic of you, my friend. Well done.:up::up::hi5:
     
  26. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

    31,582
    17,137
    0
    Nov 23, 2007

    Here is the South Carolina Ordinace of Secession, I do not see any mention of slavery;

    Ordinances of Secession


    A quick perusal finds only Texas and Virginia mentioning slavery specifically in their articles. I was surprised at how the wording changed with the state pedigree and/or when the article was written.
     
    Ducken and gafinfan like this.
  27. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

    31,582
    17,137
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    my Florida connection here is with Col. Henry Titus, namesake of Titusville Florida. Remembering that I portray my GG Granfather in the first person the Titus family were known to us. There is no evidence one way or another to know if Gramps was friendly with Henry himself but he was friends with Captain James Armour at Juputer Light who was his arch enemy. On my families first trip up/down the St. Johns 1872, they were in the company of Mrs Titus and the children, so we knew them all for sure. As my GGGrandfather I treat him as an aquaintence but not friend. It is complex tho.

    My Uncle moved up from Hypoluxo Island to manage the Titus house when the Col. died 1882. My Gramps fought in the Union, Titus was serously pro slavery and was part of the bloodshed at Lawrenceville Kansas. A leader and/or instigator in fact.

    Col. Henry Theodore Titus
    in Bleeding Kansas (1856)


    [​IMG]
    Titus and pro-slavery forces going to attack Lawrence.

    [​IMG]
    Titus captured at his Kansas cabin in 1856.

    [​IMG]
    Titus' pearl-handled sword. Kansas Museum of History.
     
    gafinfan and padre31 like this.
  28. daphins

    daphins A-Style

    5,450
    2,632
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    HAHAHAHHAAAA! I can't BELIEVE there's a thread with this in it. Junior year in HS I moved to NC and dated this CRAZY girl that LOVED to get on a pedestal about "The War of Yankee Aggression".

    I rib her about it every chance I get :D
     
  29. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

    31,582
    17,137
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    The election was November 7th, 1876. It wasn't a miscount, it was skulduggery. William H. Gleason corrupted the election results to get himself elected.

    Arva Moore Parks; Miami in 1876

     
    gafinfan likes this.
  30. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Hmmm, it seems that this cat can't change its spots.:lol::wink2:

    Thanks Marty, this is why Florida history is and has been always so interesting to me.:hi5:
     
    cnc66 likes this.
  31. charlestonphan

    charlestonphan Junior Member

    4,229
    1,493
    0
    Mar 22, 2008
    i think perhaps that this is an abridged version of the entire document. here is a link to it in it's entirety from Furman University;

    http://facweb.furman.edu/~benson/docs/decl-sc.htm

    within this document slavery is referenced frequently, but as a subtext. the decry that the non slave states were not enforcing US fugitive slave law's, for example.


    but i will definitely agree that the gist of my home states point in the S.C. Articles of Secession were that the non slave holding states were not living up to their end of the bargain by enforcing the Constitution nor Federal laws.

    so why should they remain in the union if the other side had already shown they were not going to live up to? not one of my high school, or college history professors, nor one of the 40 plus authors i have read on the subject, have ever come close to justifying it to me.
     
    cnc66 and gafinfan like this.

Share This Page