JT on confidence in Camerom

EDIT: LETS STAY ON TOPIC, TALK ABOUT THE POST, NOT THE POSTERS

OL's are fragile things... and just the fact 3 of the guys are same was huge benefit... I credit Houck... I don't discredit Cam and don't think for a moment he didn't have some input.. but please.... just let it stop there... the guys up front weren't happy at the beginning of TC... but because of their belief in Houck they pulled together and started jelling as a unit... it helps they all have been healthy for change as well.. far more important than ANYTHING Cam had to do it...

And the JA deal.. please just stop it... the guy was never given an opportunity... period... he didn't prove anything more in practice than he had before... he got in the line up because of necessity... and as I had said to you many times... let his play decide.. not his practice... he's proven very soild...

 

How do you say the defense is better? 40 pts to the Jets? B.Westbrook's career high rushing game was against us. AJ Feeley managed to look good against us. Buffalo got everything he needed to get when he needed to get it. We folded like an accordian in the 4th qtr against a less than stellar Buffalo offense. the only 2 games where we could even pretend we had a good defense were the games against the Giants and Steelers in some of the worst field conditions in the NFL in years.

 

"incorrect an foolish" KB?
Center is one of the most important pieces of an OL. It can have a huge influence on the play of the line. Houk should be credited with it just like he was credited with line success at his other jobs in the NFL.
Who are your sources for these one-on-one meetings and blocking-scheme changes that you claim as "fact"?

 

So you'd rather spout off about something you know nothing about and refuse to learn? You are the one that said: "many coaches have 'built a team the right way'......and NONE of them lost every game in a season with a non-expansion team. The fact that he is on the verge of 'accomplishing' this unheard of feat, should tell you something." He is facing unique circumstances. Yet you're trying to compare those circumstances to others, one's by your own admission you've no idea about.

How are the things i listed MY criteria? There are the situation he stepped into. That's a FACT.

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. I'll ask you, who's had it worse? Expansion coaches? Nope. They have the benefit of starting fresh without having to tear down anything and didn't have to do it under the microscope of expectations. Dungy with the Bucs? Again, no grandiose expectations, to work under. Sean Payton in NO? Again no grand expectations, a QB at his height, and an emotional springboard.

Ok fine you're not blaming him for everything you're just saying he's responsible for everything. Your standard of one win is arbitrary. It means nothing. The difference between 1-15 & 0-16 could be one lousy point. So, essentially what you're saying is one point separates Cam from being ok to Cam being horrible. That is an emotionally charged, over-simplification.

 

What are your sources for the stuff your spewing?

PS I believe it was Cam and Randy who drafted Samson. by the way.

 

I find it hard to believe that anyone can honestly believe that this Dolphins team is the worst situation any coach has ever walked into in the history of the NFL.

Your argument that expansion coaches, and Sean Payton had no expectations may be true but what expectations did Cam have? He was the one who believed we could be a playoff team. If he didn't than why did he approve signing Porter, pushing to trade for Green, etc.

The fact is this team went from 6-10 to likely 0-16. That is abominable no matter the injuries or number of rookies you're playing.

I agree that Cam is not to blame for everything, but does that mean we have to absolve him of all blame?? As the head coach, doesn't the buck stop with him?

 

Not a valid comparison. Those teams were expected to be abysmal, for the most part. I distinctly remember the '89 Cowboys being compared to a high school team, and laughter when they placed so much emphasis on winning a few preseason games to mask how inept they were.

Cam Cameron took over a team with an over/under on season wins of either 7 or 7.5, depending where you shopped.

If we go 0-16, it will be virtually unprecedented. I've been here more than 20 years and I'm not sure any team has ever gone under its season win projection by 7 games or more. We were talking about it the other day. One guy had records on those stats going back 15 years and he couldn't find an example.

I have no idea why posters here are downplaying it, acting like, "we knew the personnel was terrible and a season like this was inevitable." Garbage. It should be virtually impossible to manage something like this in the NFL. When I was in Miami in August, many media members were predicting playoffs, including the Herald beat writer at 10-6. The norm estimation was 8-8. One female commentator on one of the Sunday night wrapup shows picked 6 or 7 wins and was laughed at by her colleagues. I guess we're supposed to forget about those things.

On FootballInsiders.com, they have a statistical basis for estimating how many wins a team should have. Miami is at 3.3. No other team is above or below its figure by 3 or more. Very few are off by 2 or more. It's on the bottom tables of this link.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff.php

On edit: correction, I overlooked Cincinnati, which has an estimate of 7.1 statistically, with a 4-8 record. That will really be a battle of underachievers when we play the Bengals.

 

Also, the eras those coaches took over in were totally different. There was no unfettered free agency, no salary cap and much less parity.

0-16 should be impossible in the modern NFL. Unfortunately we have come to expect the impossible with this team

 

And Bill Belichick was FIRED from his first coaching job. Even he admits that he was not ready to be a head coach in Cleveland and that going back to work for Parcells was the best thing that happened to him. It was only through his great work as an assitant the second time around that he even got another opportunity

 

I'm spouting off about things I know nothing about?? Ok, once you prove some of your "facts", I'll prove mine:

Ok....if this is a fact, prove it.

sounds more like a guess than a FACT, proof?

more proof please.

guessing? proof?

Yeah, no front office is ever in flux during a coaching change....but I'm sure you can prove this 'fact' as well.

Sure his situation is unique.....every situation is. but the only true FACT that I've seen on this thread is that he goes winless in a 16 game season, he will have 'accomplished' something that no other coach has ever done.

Now, I've asked the question I asked above about this being the worst situation a coach has ever walked into to several posters....and each person I've asked has always skirted the issue. You are the first to tell me that you think that it is. That's your OPINION. So it makes sense to me that you wouldn't want him fired under those circumstances.

My OPINION of the situation he walked into is different than yours...I don't think that it is the worst situation ever.....so if the results are the worst ever, bye bye Cam.

 

That part is hard to argue with

 

You can fin it as hard to believe as you want too. That doesn't mean it isn't true. Prove me wrong.

Just cause he said it, doesn't mean he meant it. Name me one coach who starts the year saying we're gonna suck. Porter, I don't know. He does, I don't. Green, was brought in to help ease Cam's and Beck's transition. That is very well documented and discussed to death. The fact that you still need someone to give you another reason is your problem.

That philosophy is dumb. You can't say any negative result is unjustifiable. I'm not making excuses, the situation is what it is. If Brady went down, and the Pats lost the rest of the way and lost their playoff game, wouldn't that be abominable by your definition? Simple fact of the matter, is that regardless of the results, the process that caused those results are valid,

I didn't absolve him of all blame. There were some questionable calls and time management issues that were his fault. The abysmal mess that this team has become isn't. And if anyone thinks that being 1-15 or 0-16 is a big deal, is just coming from an emotionally stunted place.

 

You think Cam deserves another year, fine. I can see where you're coming from even if I disagree.

I personally have seen nothing from this man that makes me think next year or the year after will be any different. When we were healthy and "his guys" like Trent were playing we were still winless and arguable looked worse than we do now.

If Cam gets more time, what is reasonable for this "emotionally stunted" man to expect next year? Shall I be happy with 2 wins? Will 2 wins next year be enough to give him a third year?

 

Also Fins, Cam started out with the #4 ranked defense statistically from a year ago. He believed that they would continue to play well, hence the Porter signing. He happened to be wrong, we all were, but lets not re-write history and argue that he walked in to a horrible situation

 

Technically, we've lost 6 games by three points each, which means, we're only 18 points worse than we were last year, if we finish 0-16....all the injuries. blunders, and bad breaks we've gotten this year, had to have taken away more than 18 points( I can think of two blunders that cost us 12 points right off the top of my head) so, that means we are actually better than we were last year!

 

lol
I'm not a guy that normally gets on coaches. I was with Dave up until the last year b/c I didn't think you could fire a guy that went 10-6. However, I have just seen nothing from Cam to suggest he has the tools to be a great or even avergae head coach. If I did, I'd be more willing to ride it out another year.

 

Oh yeah....this part. How is the difference of 0 - 1 win arbitrary? If it is then any criteria ever given for job security is aribtrary.....improvement from last season, playoffs or bust, super bowl or bust....all of these things can be the difference of 1 game, 1 point.

IMO it's not the difference between ok or horrible.....it's the difference between pretty bad (with maybe a chance to turn it around), and WORST OF ALL TIME.

For the NFL history books - it's the difference between just another team at the bottom of the 2007 standings, or the WORST TEAM EVER. The reason that noone will ever talk about the 1976 Tampa Bay Yucs....because the 2007 Dolphins did it worse, and didn't have the excuse of being an expansion team.

Winning is what matters. 12 tries. 12 failures. If he goes 16 for 16....why would anyone want him back (besides you because he was put into the worst situation any coach has ever seen in your opinion).

 

Burger:

First of all, the issues that Cam stepped into are, in fact, facts. Are you honestly sitting there saying, we don't have a significant age discrepancy, we don't have a horrible draft record from the Wannidioit's years, that Capers wasn't already here when Cam was hired, that we haven't had a significant amount of injuries, and that our FO isn't in flux? Those things I need to prove to you? I didn't say no other rookie HC had to deal with all those issues all at once for sure. I said I bet. I still do. You are the one who's so sure Cam is accomplishing something no one else has done, under circumstances that many others have. I'm trying to point out to you, that you have no idea if any other coach has had to deal with this perfect storm of crap that Cam does. Since your point was that comparison, and you can't back it up, it is ultimately bunk. Not sure why that's so tough to grasp. Try it like this, your basing your entire point on "fact" you can't prove.

No. There are the other facts about the situation that Cam walked into.

Fair enough.

Your opinion allows for nothing, no causes, no reasons, no solutions. That makes it irrational. It is based solely on the win-loss record and Cam's title, there is nothing else to back up your opinion. You neglected to reply to my point about your irrational standard for Cam with the 1 win thing. The statement you made and your glancing over the topic in rebuttal furthers my belief in that you're emotionally charged about this to the point of irrational thought. Essentially, you sound like your just angry and inconsolable.

 

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2007/03/cam_cameron_qa.html

Q: Have you talked to Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor about what the team's direction is?

A: "Zach and JT have their eyes open and they are pros. It’s very obvious that what we’re doing is not rebuilding. So we haven’t had to have any sit-down discussions. I’ve kind of winked at them and I’ve kind of said, ‘Rebuilding, huh?’ Then we sign Joey Porter. Now, they kind of laugh about it because obviously people are hammering them. We’re not rebuilding."

 

Wow, forgot about those quotes.

Cam believed he had a potential playoff team when he took the job and it wasn't completely unreasonable, espescially given the "soft" schedule at the beggining of the year. Unfortuantely he was wrong. alot of us were wrong. I didn't foresee the defenses collapse either.

I just argue that we shouldn't re-write history and say that Cam walked into this unprecedented situation that no coach should have been expected to succeed in.

Also, for infins, I would argue that when Marvin Lewis took the Bengals job that was arguably the worst non-expansion situation a coach has ever walked into. They had more than a decade of ineptitude, an unhappy locker room and incredibly horrendous ownership. He immediately changed the culture of the team and went 8-8. Yes, it's getting away from him now but he was able to break even with the worst franchise of the previous decade who had been the worst team in the elague the year before he took over.

Cam didn't have to deal with anything close.

 

No. There's a world of difference between 9-7 & 0-16. There is virtually no difference between 1-15 & 0-16. It is irrelevant, especially in the context of, 1-15 means Cam can come back next year and can't if it 0-16. All your justifying it by is that no one else has ever done it. That to is irrelevant, outside of your feelings. So if 3 other teams had gone 0-16, then you wouldn't be as mad? Would it make Cam worse or better? Do you see how that has no bearing on Cam's performance?

 

Not sure where I re-wrote anything. Are you too saying the things Cam stepped into weren't true? Cam, you, me, and JC could believe that we were Super Bowl bound at the start of the year that don't make it true. He was wrong, and you're right, we all were, but if the situation wasn't so bad, when he started, then how come we suck so bad? Magic?

 

The man is in over his head... plain and simple.. this latest little botch job about Cam having Mularkey call the plays.... all the while Cams man-crush TG lies about the process... is just another stop of the circus... it's pathetic... and it needs to end... period!

 

Fins,
I don't think we're that far apart in our thinking, only in the potential solution. Yes, Cam was wrong about the defense and it made his situation more difficult. But even when things get tough, shouldn't a good/great coach get his players to buy into a program and win a game or two?

I hate to keep bringing up Dick Jauron but I think the comparison is fair. The Bills put their 13th palyer on IR today. Buffalo was not that much more talented than us before their injuries (with a few exceptions, like receiver, which I grant you) and yet that team has gone out and won 6 games. They win the games that we lose. The close games, the games where a penalty or a turnover makes the difference.

Why haven't we won even one of those games? Obviously Cam isn't to blame for everything but he has to bear the ultimate responsibility.

 

yes, if 3 other teams had gone 0-16, and it wasn't unprecedented....I would be more accepting of it. I'd probably still want the guy fired for going an entire season w/o proving that he can manufacture a win, but I would be as insistent upon it.

0-16 will be an embarrassment that will forever be tied to this franchise. That isn't 'my feelings' that's a FACT. It will be no less significant than 17-0 was. As proud a moment as that was in Dolphins history, this will be an disgrace of equal magnitude.

It amazes me that fans who worship at the feet of the 17-0 '72 Dolphins....don't see the absolute embarrassment of 0-16.

 

bad coaching?

 

I'm not the one that said that.

Look, I'm not disputing that things are horrible. But they are what they are for various reasons and I'm not going to lay it all at Cams feet. I like our draft class: A possible future pro-bowl center, a BIG play WR, A huge tough lead blocker for our future probowl RB, and a young smart strong armed QB who could all turn out to be the foundation we've been begging every coach since Shula to lay for this team. I want to see what him and Muller bring in next year and I think they deserve another shot to do it again.

 

sorry infins, still getting used to this posting thing

 

Fair enough infins, we'll agree to disagree. But I'll leave you with one question, what would be an acceptable season for the fins next year?

JJ went 7-9 in his second season following his infamous 1-15 campaign (even though I've argued ad nauseum that the situations are not that similar). Is 7-9 reasonable for the non-Cam fans to expect or hope for?

 

Yes, he does, and if he doesn't prove next season that this season was a fluke, his *** is out of here...... and I guarantee that that time frame is a hell of a lot shorter than the "one year longer than Shula" that he planned on being here.

I think that will be a fair punishment for all his transgressions.

 

Talk about being short-sighted and really mixing metaphors... This takes the cake.

 

Geez, I've been arguing all day that 0-16 means nothing, now you want me to say our won loss record next year will be the be all end all?

Can I just say that I want to see improvement across the board and that how much, will only be decided one day next season when the feeling does or does not come to me. Trust me too, I'm not going into the season with a soft spot for a coach who coached us to an 0-16 record the previous year. If I don't see improvement I'll scream about it as loud as anyone.

 

Ok, fair enough.

I would just feel much more comfortable with that idea if we had seen any evidence that Cam is an even average coach. If he doesn't prove this year was a fluke then we are having this same conversation next year, arguing about conitnuity and the like.

I just feel that if the man shows nothing we may be better off cutting our losses now rather than wait a year. Sometimes you have to walk away from the blackjack table.

 

it was a direct response to another post....I didn't come up with the metaphor

 

Today I agree with you 100%, people talkin trash about a guy that has always been an example inside and outside the lockeroom should just be quiet. I mean the guy had a MVP year last year playing the position and this year thay change him and the results are not good, how about using him back at his old position, I mean he had one good game were he was playing his old position and the week after thay put him back at his new position, the guy should be upset!!!!!! Cam has made alot of bad calls, we definately need to question his abilities and leadership.