Ronnie Brown on the trading block?

Thanks for the clarification surferosa!

 

You keep bring up Peterson. What does Peterson have to do with Miami anyway? And what does his college injuries have to do with the pros. So far in the pros, he's been injured once. But again, that has nothing to do with Miami, Ronnie Brown, and how our front office looks at the running back situation.

 

It's a valid comparison of players who play the same position and thier injury history over the past 4 years.

And college injuries are important, otherwise teams wouldn't have scrutinized Peterson so much leading up to the draft. Injuries don't shut on or off depending on the level of play, they don't say "Oh, this guy is in the NFL now, time to stop being injured".

It's a simple comparison and a simple question.

If you feel that Ronnie is injury prone and that is sufficient reason to move him, then one could posit that you feel that Peterson is injury prone and would be willing to trade him away as well.

 

One, Peterson is not a Miami Dolphin. We CAN'T trade him. Two, if he were, I'd be much happier with him because he is better than Brown. So I would allow a little more leeway before trading AP. Besides, it remains to be seen just how much AP will be injured in the NFL. I used Marino as an example in an earlier post. He had several knee surgeries well before becoming a pro and he lasted 17 seasons. So college and high school injuries don't necessarily mean anything. Adrian Peterson's future remains to be seen. But it is much too early to proclaim him injury prone as he has only sustained the one injury at this level and he came back strong and fairly quickly.

And the fact the RB is injury prone was NOT the only reason I suggested we move him. That's putting words in my "mouth." I said it would be good to get something for him now because his contract is up and I don't see us paying top dollar to keep him. I added that he has also proven to be injury prone. I also included that backs are easier to come by and the premium on running backs isn't what it used to be. The injury thing was only ONE of the reasons I said I wouldn't mind trading Ronnie for a 2nd rounder. Not the ONLY reason.

 

Bro, it a hypothetical. Just like when we say "Boldin in Miami? Imagine what he could do in the wildcat" or "If we were to draft Sean Smith, where do you think he should play, CB or S?". Lets not get all ticky tack and pick and choose when we can use hypothetical situations.

He wouldn't be in this offense, his stats would not resemble the numbers that he is putting up in Minny. He would be a part of a two back system and his production would slip, causing his numbers to resemble Ronnie Brown or Marion Barber.

Again, injuries don't shut on or off depending on if the guy plays in the NFL or college. Peterson is 2 years removed from a serious collarbone injury that caused him to miss the remainder of his college season, it's not like I'm pulling an example from when he stubbed his toe when learning to walk.

Peterson's injuries occur in the same time frame that you are using to criticize Ronnie, the comparison is more than fair.

Where's the proof? He suffered a knee injury doing something that was unfamiliar to him (making a tackle), he hurt his hand in a fluke-ish manner (getting caught in a face mask), those injuries are not related in any way.

A player who is injury prone suffers from reoccurring injuries that hassle him throughout his career. Someone with multiple concussion syndrome is injury prone. Someone who has a degenerative bone disaorder is injury prone. Someone who injures the same body part over and over again is injury prone.

Suffering 2 freak injuries that could happen to anyone is not a good case that he is injury prone. One could say that he suffered from some extremely bad luck, as sick pointed out, but luck has nothing to do with a player's actual body and his susceptibility to suffering injury.

Again, over the same period of time Adrian Peterson suffered more serious injuries that caused him to miss significant time. If you feel that Ronnie is injury prone, do you also feel that Peterson is injury prone? This has nothing to do with their talent on the field, this is strictly about their ability to stay healthy.

You mentioned that RB are easier to come by, but how many team have been able to find RB's that have the strong overall game that Ronnie has? The guy gains yardage at a 4.4 clip over his career (a statistic that you said was important), he is one of the best receiving RB's in the NFL (praise from Belichick), his blocking in the backfield is well above average for a runningback, he is the focal point of our offense and the main piece that made the wildcat effective. Add to that, he has a great attitude and is a great teammate, and he did all this behind suspect offensive lines. How many teams can pull that rabbit out of their hat at will?

The draft is a crapshoot, every team feels that they are selecting the right player, none of them think that they are going to draft a bust. Just because Parcells may feel that he can draft a replacement, that doesn't mean that he actually can, even with multiple chances.

We have a RB that teams salivate over and spend countless resources to try and acquire, why get rid of him? It makes zero sense. You're speculating that the team doesn't want to pay him, yet they've never given any indication that's how they feel. This rumor started because of an article written by Lombardi, lets end it with another article from Harvey in which he speculates that the Phins may resign Ronnie before the season starts.

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2009/04/trade-ronnie-brown-no-way.html

Neither guy has an "in" to what the Dolphins braintrust is thinking, both are just speculating. Why we are even taking this discussion seriously is a head scratcher, Lombardi's evaluation of Ronnie was the polar opposite of the truth, so why feed into the nonsense?

Another bit that I find amusing from Lombardi is that he says the FO doesn't want to spend big money on Ronnie, but he's proposing that we trade him for Boldin who will receive a monster contract and plays a position that some could call "a dime a dozen".

 

One name for you. Herschel Walker. Second name for you. Ricky Williams. I doubt we'd see those kind of deals for Ronnie Brown but big deals do happen for RB's.

 

Phew, this is a lot, but a lot of good stuff! For some reason, my thanks button is showing up, or I'd have thanked all the responses L2G, because it's been a good discussion although I don't agree with some of your points--others I do.

Pennington does handicap some of things we can do, but as it is with most every player (including Ronnie Brown), except the great ones, you take the trade-off. Chad is extremely accurate, smart, and his intangibles are off the charts.

The reason why I used Chad Pennington as an example is because your statement

and if that is the case, than Chad Pennington would not prove your point, because we're not giving him an extension. Wouldn't you agree that Chad Pennington's worth to this team is pretty extravagant? Take him off this team and we're 5-11...maybe.

As far as Ronnie goes, he handicaps us in ways as well. He is a 4th year player that we still had to split carries with for the fear he wouldn't make it the entire year. Not to mention, as great as Ronnie was, Ricky Williams was still being used at critical times last year in the 4th QTR. To me that is handicapping a team.

The reason why I bring these up isn't because I'm downgrading Ronnie, because I agree, if he gets the carries and stays healthy he could put up extravagant numbers, but more to prove the point that he isn't going to get the dollars he expects in an extension, thus making it a good idea to see what value is out there for Ronnie Brown (that is a serious run-on sentence, haha).

That's exactly what a bonus is--a reward for good play, but the amount of money and potential of a contract has a lot to do with incentives and statistics. Statistics and play have everything to do with a contract, but so does worth to a team, and production on a field. Statistics in my mind is a measurement of production--that's why agents use it (you hear it from Rosenhaus all the time) and it's certainly in contract negotiations. Again, the reason why I bring that up is because Ronnie's statistics/production hasn't been that of a Top 5 RB, which is the type of extension he will look for (an assumption that could be wrong yes), and if it is, I just don't see us giving it to him.

Putting the strength of the running game isn't as much of a risk with this team, especially with the OL that we have. We put such high regard in the offensive line, by saying things like it wouldn't make sense to let Ronnie Brown go after upgrading our OLine and finally getting a great OLine. But, now after the thought of letting Ronnie Brown go and using a rookie RB it's a serious risk. The OLine is still great and would certainly allow the rookies to have a higher success rate than say with others.

I agree though, this draft class doesn't look remotely as strong at the RB position as last year. Knowshon Moreno, sounds like a plan, but Cedric Peerman, yes much riskier.

While, Parcells isn't perfect, he's the closest thing there is to it IMO and maybe I'm more trusting than you are, but after the turnaround and his track record I'm willing to let the man have some leash.

 

Anybody else having trouble with when you go to reply to a post it logs you out and you lose your reply? It's ticking me off, haha.

I want to preface this by saying I have a huge man-crush on Ronnie Brown. I've taken a stance that seems like I don't view him as a long-term player or a great player. He's the most exciting player I've seen since Dan Marino and he's my favorite player in the NFL. But...

If Ronnie Brown wasn't injury prone than why has our team made sure to make concessions the last two years to try and get him through an entire year? You don't split carries when you have a great back, if you're not worried about him getting injured. Not to mention, the reasons for splitting the carries have been to keep him healthy per the coaches, front office, and beat writers.

Are the injuries freakish? Yes, but as Tony Sparano says if you're injured and not playing, you're not dependable. This front office doesn't care how you get injured, but if you're not on the field, it doesn't matter.

Ronnie Brown has missed games in 3 of his first 4 years. To say he doesn't have durability or injury concerns going into the season, would be lying. Why is it when we talk about the potential of Ronnie Brown, people say things like "if he stays healthy"? You don't say things like that about guys who aren't injury prone or have durability concerns. And, yes they are the same things.

 

Disagree and my post above this one explains my position. There injuries man, flukish or not.

If that's the case, why is Yatil Green viewed as a bust and injury prone? He hurt his ACL in non-contact drills and hurt another one on a sprinkler head. Those are flukish, but it doesn't ease the tension Fin fans have toward the guy.

Injury prone doesn't mean they have to be the same injury or re-curring.

If he continues to have seasons where he doesn't miss games, yes it disproves that. Even the Dolphins have fear about Ronnie's durability--we've had to split carries with him his entire career. He has an injury free year and now you hear him having a bigger role and more opportunities

 

This goes to show you what Belichick knows when you compare stats from last year(I don't need to hear that Ronnie and Ricky split catches between them because so did quite a few on this list that had more receiving yards than Ronnie Brown

Maurice Jones-565 yards receiving
Kevin Faulk-486 yards
M Forte-477
R Bush-440
L Tomilson-426
B Westbrook-402
C Taylor-399
D Ward-384
S Jackson-379
S Slaton-377
F Gore- 373
L Washington-355
J Norwood-338
W Dunn-330
C Buckwalter-324
M Moore-320
F Jackson-317
D Rhodes-302
M Lynch-300
K Smith-286
D McFadden-285
P Thomas-284
R Rice-273
J Charles-272
C Johnson-260
JJ Arrington-255

RONNIE BROWN-254...

Not saying there all better running backs than Ronnie or that I would prefer any over Ronnie
ALL MY LIST SAYS IS RUNNING BACKS WITH MORE YARDS RECEIVING LAST YEAR COMPARED TO RONNIE

 

I'm long-winded and I like to debate, so it has been fun.

What is Chad Pennington's worth to the team? Is it extravagant?

I guess his worth is extravagant in relation to our past revolving door of QB's, but his worth is also a bit exaggerated. We spent years looking for some stability at QB, sometimes I think our fans overrate Penny, as evidenced by the "about-face" in opinion from his days as a NY Jet until now.

When Pennington was in gag green we called him a "noodle arm" and said that he was as fragile as a china doll. Sure some people acknowledged that he was a good game manager, but we all scoffed at the idea that Pennington was the type of QB to lead the Jets to the SB. Now that he's in aqua and orange, his arm strength magically reappeared, he's a leader, it was highway robbery that he didn't make it to the ProBowl and wasn't MVP. In short, he's on our team now so he's a superstar. I just don't buy that, he still has physical limitations that severely handicap this offense, so his worth in my eyes isn't extravagant, it's.....complicated.

If I'm just putting a value on his play, his ability to manage a game, then I would say that he's definitely above average. I subtract points for weak arm. If we are talking about his effect on the offense as a whole, I rate him as average because of how much of our offense is untapped and the way our young players aren't being utilized properly. So no, I don't think his worth to the team is extravagant, I think we could have done just fine last year with Henne, maybe not playoffs, but we would have had a more realistic season. Lets be honest, we took advantage of an easy schedule and came out of nowhere, we surprised teams with the wildcat and Porter had a career year, things aren't going to be that easy this year. This year we are going to see the real Miami Dolphins in action and we may not see the same results.

So seeing that even the FO knows that Pennington isn't the longterm answer and have pointed out his lack of arm strength, no he isn't extravagant. He made us look alot better than we were last year, but he is replaceable because his physical limitations limit what we can do, cause defenses to play us tighter and don't allow our players to take advantage of their physical gifts. So I don't buy that Penny is so invaluable to us that he's in the same boat as Ronnie.

And this is where I think you are missing the point, we didn't run the 2 RB system because Ronnie was injured, sure it helped to take the load off of him, but we would have run that system even if Ronnie was 100% healthy and never suffered that knee injury. That's a Parcells style offense, that's what they did (and do) in Dallas with Marion Barber. When Barber and Jones were splitting carries, they were splitting them roughly 60/40 to keep the RB's fresh, not because they couldn't carry the load, but to keep the running game strong from the start of the game to the final whistle. The fact that we used the 2 RB system the way we did has nothing to do with Ronnie's health, that's just Parcells football.

So that isn't a handicap

First of all, we don't know what type of numbers Ronnie is going to be looking for. It's all speculation at this point, and in my opinion it's faulty speculation. We shouldn't immediately assume that Ronnie is going to be looking to break the bank, he may and he may not. Brown isn't represented by that blood sucker Drew Rosenhaus, so negotiations shouldn't be heated.

And statistics play their part in contract negotiations, but they aren't the only thing that figures into salary. Worth to the team might be the most important thing, if the player isn't worth much to the team, the team isn't going to take the talks seriously. And as I pointed out earlier, Ronnie could have rushed for 2,000 yards and scored 20 TD's and the Dolphins would still find something to knock him down a few pegs because that's how negotiations work. The agent doesn't walk in with the players stats, drop them on the table and then the team looks at a chart to see how much each yard, every TD and every carry is worth. So while stats play a role, there is much much more to negotiations than that.

I'm not convinced at all that this OL has improved since the end of last season. Smiley was lost for the year and is going to be a questionmark until he can prove he's healthy out on the field. Thomas suffered a serious foot injury that has the ability to be a nagging longterm problem. Even if he were to return at 100%, he's still a player with only one game of NFL experience, most of his hype came from player who commented on his strength in training camp. Grove comes with his own set of injury concerns and the Raiders fans weren't exactly upset to see him go.

I don't see this OL being set at all. We spent money, yes, but you need to spend that money wisely and I don't feel that we did. We had an opportunity to land Brown and ended up paying Grove just a few million less than what Brown got from STL. We really missed an opportunity to improve, instead we paid big money to a lesser player.

Cadillac Williams

He was supposed to be one of the best RB's coming out that year, better than Ronnie, people were upset that we didn't draft him instead because he was as close to a sure thing as you could get. How did that turn out?

The draft isn't an exact science. The FO's do their best to make an educated selection on draft day, but they don't know anymore than we do how a player will turn out until he's out on the field producing. That's too big of a chance to take with a rebuilding team, you just don't trade a guy like Ronnie because you think that a rookie may turn out to be as good or better.

Parcells is good, but he isn't infallible.

Would you use a 2nd round draft pick for Quincy Carter to be your QB of the future? Parcells did, and he rode Carter long after most people had already come to the conclusion that he wasn't NFL material. Would you use a first rounder on Pat Harlow, Leonard Russell, Eugene Chung, Kyle Brady, etc, etc, etc? Parcells did, he saw something in each of those player that made him think that they had 1st rounder written all over them and for whatever reason they never panned out. As good as Parcells is at what he does, he makes mistakes, he makes bad judgments and he drafts bad players. And when he was with the Jets he tried to accelerate the rebuilding process by overpaying FA's and he left them with a cap mess.

So while I respect Parcells, I'm not content to just be happy that he's making the picks.

That just isn't true, they aren't splitting carries because of Ronnie's health, they are splitting carries because that is the system we have in place. Cam was splitting carries because he wanted to keep the RB's fresh, when that didn't work he fed Ronnie the ball and he excelled. Last year they split carries the same way they would have had Ronnie never suffered that injury and how they did it in Dallas. It had nothing to do with his health. Now the FO may have commented that the system would help Ronnie in his recovery by lessening his load, but they didn't make concessions at all.

And if you can't make the distinction between reoccurring injuries that make a player "injury prone" and freak injuries that could happen to anyone (like the ones Ronnie suffered), you aren't looking with an objective eye. His injuries weren't related in any way, getting your hand caught in a facemask isn't an indication that you're body is susceptible to injury, tearing up your knee while making a play that isn't routine to you is not injury prone, it's bad luck.

A guy like Trent Green is injury prone, he had multiple concussions which were reoccurring. That isn't Ronnie Brown, far from it.

 

And that's fine, but that doesn't take system or number of pass catching opportunities into account, those are blind numbers. Everyone from Belichick, to our FO, to NFL scouts, to fellow players, to our very own gurus have remarked several times that Ronnie is one of the best receiving backs in the league, he has elite ability out of the backfield. They look at his technique, they look at what he does with his opportunities and they all feel he is one of the best. Numbers are only one part of the discussion, and context is important.

 

Thatta boy harvey

 

harvey is the man

 

Cameron never hurt Ronnie's morale at all IMO. In fact Cam taught Brown how to work harder to earn his spot. It was the only good thing he did for the Dolphins really. Once Ronnie hit the field he was pretty much unstoppable in '07 until the injury of course.

As for trading Brown I'm not against it. Do we really want to see him for 4 more years. RB is good but not great. He will demand big cash.


Comparing RB to AP in this thread made me chuckle.
If only Ronnie had that second gear.
Then the trade rumor wouldn't exist.

 

You were chuckling for nothing, the comparison had nothing to do with talent, just injury history over the past 4 years. It amazes me that so many people have overlooked that in order to call Ronnie "injury prone".

 

Good stuff, again.

I'm not missing your point, I just don't agree with it. I think that's a big difference. I'm not going to agree with your point, because I just don't understand your rationalization--but I do respect the hell out of it.

I see that you don't put much worth into Chad Pennington on this team, but he was the runner up for the MVP. I can post numerous articles about how Tony Sparano and the team feel how much his worth is to the team. Is he the long-term answer to this team, no. And that is the reason why there hasn't been a contract extension talk--maybe they view Ronnie in the same manner. I used Chad Pennington on the premise that his worth is so high to the team, why isn't that being leveraged into negotiations? Because it isn't everything. Ronnie's worth to this team is high, but it's not going to get him the money, I expect him to ask for.

Yes, he split the offense in Dallas, but it's not indicative of every Parcells team. He didn't have much of a split in New England or New York when he had Curtis Martin. If anything that goes against both our theory that Ronnie could be one of the best backs in the league, because Parcells has shown a tendency to feed a guy if he trusts him--like he did with a great RB in Curtis Martin.

And I think you're kidding yourself and lying if you honestly believe that one of the reasons, maybe not the over-riding factor, for Ronnie not getting a bulk of the carries was to keep him fresh and keep him healthy--especially at the early portion of the year. I'm not the best at research or being able to search the forum, but I'm sure there is something out there to show that.

Here is a little information that I found on it.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d808be202&template=with-video&confirm=true

While Tony Sparano doesn't come right out and say, we're going to limit Ronnie Brown because of his knee injury, I think we can deduce from that little information that it had to play in the decision making process of the amount of work Ronnie Brown got last year--especially in the early portion of the schedule.

And because I believe that played into that decision making process--it is a handicap in my book. Parcells didn't do it with Curtis Martin and I think we can all agree that Ronnie Brown has more potential and talent than Curtis Martin. It has to do with the trust the Parcells team had in Martin, that they do not have in Ronnie.

As far as the numbers Ronnie Brown will command, you're exactly right. I don't know what he will command. BUT, if he commands a Top 5 RB salary (one like the one Maurice Jones Drew just got), I don't think they're going to give it to him. They've put a huge investment into the OLine and I don't know if Parcells views a RB as the same type of investment--again reasoning to why I believe it's not a poor idea to look into what type of value you can get for Ronnie Brown.

For every poor decision you made about Parcells, I can comeback with what he's done right but for the length of this reply's sake, I'm not going to go into that. He's got a strong track record, with poor decisions, but he's regarded as one of the best--if not the best--and to me there is a reason why.

Whether reoccurring or fluke, IMO, they are injuries and take him out of games. Maybe his body isn't injury prone, but maybe it's the style he plays football. Is Ryan Freel's body susceptible to injury? Maybe not, but the diving into the walls, and breaking up Double Plays, and putting your body in the way of a pitch to get on base aren't ways to keep you healthy. Am I telling Ronnie Brown to not go for a tackle after the ball is intercepted? No. But, whether poor luck, fluke, or having a body that is susceptible to injury, in my mind, if you can't stay on the field for an entire year and show that consistency you're injury prone--and I feel very confident in saying that whether fluke or not, if Ronnie Brown doesn't stay healthy with this front office, he won't be in our long-term plans.

As far as splitting carries, again I addressed that up above, but as you mentioned to me regarding injuries and looking with an objective eye, I ask you to do the same about the coaches decision making process in splitting carries this year. I just can't imagine that it didn't go into the process when they were deciding how to split up the carries.

 

This story seems to be picking up steam. This was posted on Tim Graham's AFCE blog today.

Miami Dolphins

An unnamed source tells Palm Beach Post reporter Edgar Thompson the Dolphins want to trade running back Ronnie Brown. Thompson looks at the potential suitors.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afceast

It could be a few things:

* just piggy-backing off the original Lombardi story and the response from Fialkov
* fueling some fire to a smoke screen Miami is trying to provide
* fueling some fire to get more offers rolling in because they really are interested in dealing him.

 

I would be shocked if Miami signed him to an extension. This front office just hasn't set that precedent. They rewarded role players such as Patrick Cobbs and Greg Camarillo in season with extensions, but have shown to wait out large contracts to see the market.

I fully expect Ronnie Brown to a free agent after his contract is up.

 

And I'll stop you right there.

Debating and discussion is one thing, but removing civility from the equation and replacing it with insults is over the line. Please be respectful or the conversation will end.

Nope, because as I pointed out he is holding this team back with his physical limitations. A guy like Ginn is misused, his game is speed and getting separation and stretching the field, but he isn't being utilized that way because Pennington can't connect with him downfield due to lack of arm strength. So they've tried to get Ginn involved in other ways. Pennington physical limitations cause defenses to play us differently, they don't fear the long ball so they are able to cheat against the run and shorten the field. That's a handicap, not just for the player, but for the whole team. So no, his worth isn't "extravagant", his worth is complicated. It's a battle between his ability as a game manager vs his inability to properly utitlize the assets on the team due to a weak arm.

And what is a HC supposed to say about his players? Is he going to praise them to the press or create a rift by speaking frankly? Even during the worst part of our 1-15 season Cam Cameron never singled out and badmouthed his players to the press, no HC in his right mind would do such a thing. Chad is efficient, he makes the most with what he has. He isn't a gunslinger, he isn't a good fit for a vertical offense, he's a dink and dunk player whose presence doesn't allow our offense to reach its full potential.

Some of you have repeatedly used stats to condemn Ronnie Brown, if I were to use the same logic for Pennington, I could come up with 2 separate conclusions. If I were to base my opinion on yards and TD's, I could say that Chad had no business being talked about as an MVP candidate. If I were to look at his completion percentage, interceptions and QB rating I could say that he is one of the best in the NFL. So which is it? Again I fall back on the worth to the team argument. While Chad is efficient, he's holding our offense back. If we want to improve, we need to be able to throw the ball deep and stretch the defenses so that they aren't cheating against the run. So while Chad is efficient and doesn't turn the ball overwith his passes, he's also a bit of a liability that not only effects the passing game, but also the running game. Therefor, in my mind, his worth isn't extravagant, he isn't a player that is invaluable to the team.

It's not indicative of every Parcells team, the NFL has changed over the years and I'm sure there are many aspects of his coaching/GM style that have changed over the years to stay one step ahead of the competition. All the matters is the most recent examples from which we can make comparisons, what happened in 1995 is about as meaningful to todays game as what happened in 1985, the game has changed. Show me one coach with any longevity that has been 100% consistent throughout the years without adapting. It doesn't happen because in order to stay at the top of their game, they need to make refinements to stay current, to be better than the competition, to stay ahead of the game before they are left behind. The days of one RB carrying the ball 300+ times and being the only option are coming to a close as more teams embrace the 2 RB system, the numbers are dwindling because the game is changing.

The numbers that matter are the most recent examples. Take a look at what the Cowboys looked like under Parcells

2003
275 Troy Hambrick
225 shared by 5 players

2004
197 Julius Jones
132 Eddie George
110 shared by 4 other players

2005
257 Julius Jones
138 Marion Barber
116 shared by 3 other players

2006
267 Julius Jones
135 Marion Barber
66 shared by 5 other players

2007
204 Marion Barber
164 Julius Jones
51 shared by 4 other players

You can see the progression there, in 2003 Hambrick was receiving the majority of the carries with the next closest person behind him carrying the ball 70 times. Even then the overall carries were split pretty evenly. Over the years Parcells has gradually gone to a true 2 RB system that splits the carries between 2 backs, and that's what we are employing here.

Or as Sparano says

So your main piece of evidence is an article from 11 months ago? An artice written shortly after last years draft? An article that was written 4 months before Ronnie was involved in real game situations? You're basing your assumptions on outdated data, Sparano was talking about how they were going to treat Ronnie during camp to get him prepared for the season, again context is important. You're using a quote from May to explain what the team was doing in November and December? That's a pretty big leap and a leap in the wrong direction IMO.

Noone said that Ronnie was going to pick right up where he left off, he needed to come in and prove that he was healthy and able to handle what the coaching staff threw at him. If they didn't feel that he was ready and couldn't contribute at 100%, do you really think this FO and coaching staff would put him out on the field and risk him reinjuring his knee? No coaching staff, FO, training staff, etc is going to put their players our there in a position to do more harm to themselves, that just isn't going to happen. Your assumption about why they ran the 2 RB system is wrong, and that is also supported by Sparano's quote about the system that I posted earlier and will post once again.

That quote btw came after the season, one month ago to be exact, after Ronnie proved that he was fully recovered from his injury, and after Ronnie played a full season on said knee. His injury had nothing to do with our desire to run a 2 RB system, then or in the future.

Case closed

Really? Because Curtis Martin is more than likely going to be inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2011, it's good to know that you value Ronnie so highly, which makes this conversation about his ability seem silly. And why would Parcells not trust Ronnie if he's more talented than Martin? Does that make any sense? Now whether or not Ronnie is as good as Martin is up for debate, that's another thread entirely.

As I pointed out above, Parcells has trended more and more to the 2 RB system over the years, Sparano's words don't support your argument, they refute it. The NFL has changed, in order to be successful you need to have 2 RB's to share the load so that they can be fresh in the 4th quarter to wear the defense down. I'm not sure how else I can state it, the facts are there for you to see.

You don't know, but you are willing to assume? That's speculation and nothing more, which makes this thread kind of silly.

I could speculate that Parcells doesn't like Free Safties because he didn't resign Hill and instead signed Wilson who is a Strong Safety. Would I be right or would that be random speculation based on bit and pieces of truth?

Until the team makes a decision or tips their hand, we should all assume that Ronnie is a Miami Dolphin and support him.

That's fine, statistically I would win that argument because he's had more players fizzle than shine, as all HC and GM's have.

Parcells' draft successes have been mostly on the defensive side of the ball, especially in the earlier rounds of the draft. He's a defensive minded coach and that has carried over into his drafting and FA signings. When he has gone early on offense, he has drafted offensive lineman and our draft last year reflects that (OT, DE, QB -who was BPA, DE). Parcells is not free from making mistakes, he isn't infallible, and thinking that he is going to be able to hit on a RB if we trade Ronnie away is reckless. The draft is a crapshoot, as Parcells' draft history and the draft history of every other team in NFL history suggests.

You don't trade away proven talent for a complete unknown

So you want Ronnie to change his style of play to prevent injuries? You want him to shy away from his strengths in order to stay healthy?

Okay, which part of his game should he have changed in order to prevent the knee injury? He was trying to make a tackle, something that he wasn't used to, and something that we as fans and the coaching staff would have blasted him for if he just stood there and did nothing.

Which part of his game should he have changed to prevent the broken hand when it got stuck in a facemask? Should he avoid contact altogether? Good luck, this is football, players get hit. And truth be told, that injury wasn't Ronnie's fault, the defensive player was trying to knock the ball loose.

Neither injury was his fault, neither injury makes him injury prone, they were bad luck....something that could happen to any player. So using bad luck injuries as a sign that a player is ijnury prone, every player in the NFL could then be looked upon as being injury prone, meaning that Parcells and other teams don't have confidence in any player.

Or we could stick with the tried and true definition of reoccurring injuries or injuries that are degenerative nature as "injury prone". A player who suffers a concussion is more likely to suffer another and more severe concussion, that's injury prone. Ronnie's injuries are not of that nature.

Done, and Sparano's quote backs me up. You used an article from May of last year to assume that we used the 2 RB system because Ronnie wasn't ready to play at 100%. That only works if you also believe that our FO and coaching staff would put Ronnie out on the field before he was physically ready and risking his health. Was there an added benefit of lessening Ronnie's workload? Absolutely, but as Sparano's quote and Parcells recent history shows, the 2 RB offense would have been in place regardless.

 

Wow, l2g. That's just not an accurate statement at all. You can make an argument that his arm strength affects some of our playcalling but to state that he is holding the team back is just wrong. Do you really think we would have done better than 11-5 last season without Chad Pennington? Do you put no stock at all in his smart throws, ability to manipulate a defense, ball security, etc? Does that all mean nothing to you? Is a few more post patterns in the playbook worth giving all that up in your mind?

 

It isn't? His lack of arm strength doesn't limit our playbook and force us to find other ways to utilize players like Ginn? His physical limitations handicap our offense, which in turn hurts the team because defenses play us differently, they don't fear the long ball and they cheat against the run. Again, this is the same thing that we told Jet fans for years when Penny was in NY, he didn't magically become a different QB once he put on our uniform.

Pennington helped us win games, but how many games did he cause us to lose? We won't know because there isn't a stat that we can pull from an alternate reality, but we can look at how our offense runs with him behind center and deduce that we are a vertically challenged team because of his limitations. When Sparano was talking about Henne, he emphasized how the ball was jumping out of his hands, that doesn't happen with Penny. There is a reason that the FO is looking at giving Henne his shot after this year, it's because he will open up our offense even more. He may not be as efficient as Chad, but he will bring a new dimension to the team.

 

He got hurt 2 times already.He is good but nothing we will miss.

 

I don't know about you but anything deragatory I said about Chad Pennington in a Jets uniform was said out of frustration because he beat the crap out of us! I was happy the day we signed him. I knew what we were getting. A smart veteran QB with a good NFL track record.

And how many games did he cause us to lose? Are you kidding? We lost 5 games! And you can only place a large portion of the blame on Pennington in one, maybe two of those. Both the Ravens. And I don't know if you noticed, but the Ravens ate a lot of QBs for breakfast last season. It was a special defense. But the fact that we won 11, and lost 5 makes it ridiculous for you to even hint that he hurt our team more than helped it.

I can't believe you aren't willing to give Chad Pennington his share of credit for turning a 1-15 team into an 11-5 team. If you can't acknowledge that he was an integral part of that turnaround and helped our team much more than he hurt it, then I don't want to waste anymore time debating this issue.

 

He is smart, I've never said anything to the contrary. He is a very good game manager and he's efficient. But our offense is restricted with him behind center. I was dead serious in my comments about Pennington while he was in gag green. I gave him credit for being a smart game manager, but also pointed out his flaws. He's much better than the revolving door that we've had in years past, but lets not overrate him because of that, lets keep his ability in perspective.

So your number is 2?

And I never said that he hurt us more than he helped, I am simply pointing out that he did limit us. Nothing more and nothing less. somehow my valid criticism morphed into wild slander over the course of 2 posts. lol I simply asked "how much did he hurt us?" and I didn't even bother to take a stab at putting a number on it because that would be impossible. So I stuck with my original complaint that he handicaps our offense, that our playbook is thinner because Penny can't make certain throws. That's all.

Brother, I am. I said that he helped to make us look better than we were, but I'm not about to make a drastic leap and say that his physical limitations don't factor into my decision or that he's obviously an extravagant part of our team. I think we could have done relatively well with Henne taking snaps, I don't think we would have made the playoffs, but I don't think that we would have been 1-15 either.

Opposing defenses would have had to respect our deep passing game, which would have opened up more room for the running game. I also don't think that the coaching staff would have let Henne attempt as many throws as Penny had, which would have given more carries to Ronnie who is more effective the more he touches the ball throughout the game. I think our offense would have been fine without Penny, at the very least it would have been different and more open.

 

Worded this way your argument is much easier to handle than "He's holding the team back."

In my mind a guy who is helping a team win more games than they lose isn't holding a team back.

I can certainly agree Pennington does place some limitations on our offense. In my mind he makes up for those limitations with accuracy, ball security, clutch play, etc.

To get this thread back on track...

I love Ronnie Brown and don't want to see him traded!

 

And this we can all.....well, most of us, can agree on.

 

+1 for calling our oline "the Orca-5"

 

I agree totally about Pennington. That's why I wish they'd make it a REAL open competition for the spot THIS year. If Henne is better, play him. He does have the potential to bring another, and hugely needed, dimension to our offense. Our passing game will not garner the required respect with Pennington under center, and as a result, we'll still have everyone stacking up against the run. None of our receivers will realize their full potential (Ginn for specifically) until we have a QB in there with the arm to get him the ball.

Folks argue and say "how can you take Pennington out after an MVP-like season?" And I answer: "If he is out played by Henne and earns the spot and can bring that important element to the offense, then why would they NOT play Henne."

I realize Pennington played well for us, and I respect the hell out of him and his leadership and great attitude. But to me, football is about winning and taking whatever measures are necessary to elevate the team - to make them better. If Henne brings that, then he should have a fair opportunity to start. And as I've mentioned before, now would be the perfect time to at least give him the opportunity to compete to be the starting QB for our offense. The offense is young; the team is young. Why not let him grow with them? It only makes sense. Why let everyone around him grow on the field while Henne, who could be better, sits? Then when he comes in NEXT year, he has his growing pains then we take a step back that we didn't necessarily have to take. Let him take the growing pains with the rest of the young guys. Remember Troy Aikman in Dallas? He took the growing pains with the team as Johnson brought in youth. They went 1-15, 7-9, 11-5, then to the Super Bowl. (I think that's right). It didn't hurt Troy. He turned out to be a damn good QB. And Henne has the same type of strengths Troy had.

Anyway, I got off on a bit of a tangent. But the bottom line is, Pennington does limit our offense. There is no doubt about that. I want to see Henne on the field and see what he can do and what he can bring to our young and improving team.

 

I would just like start off by saying that I was in no waytrying to convey that you were lying, and it wasn't being used an insult. I'm sorry if that is what came across to you.

Second, this conversation is over. The tone has obviously changed, and it's not a discussion anymore. This has turned into an argument in which you are trying to prove me wrong, an opinion that I have, MY OPINION, and trying to disprove that with what you believe to be correct. I respect that opinion, but its obvious by this response that you don't respect mine and your intention is to try and show how you are right and I am wrong. While my intention is trying to show where I'm coming from and what I believe.

You don't want want me to remove civility from the discussion, but you've done a fine job by calling my responses and argument silly. I understand the response to feeling accused of something, so I understand you coming off defensive, but I believe it's a bit of the "pot calling the kettle black" by your way of mentioning me "removing civility from the equation".

It seems like your main goal is rack up as many "Thanks" as you can so you can point the arrow to you as a win. If that's what you'd like, fine, I'll make up 7 different names, give you thanks and proclaim you the winner.

As I've said before you've missed the entire premise of my original responses. I think it's a valid idea for the front office to see what Ronnie Brown's value is. If they feel they can get it, I'm behind the move.

Next time, I'd suggest maybe PM'ing me and asking me what was up with the response before posting something like this and completely demeaning my opinion and leaving me with this tatse in my mouth. Again, just a suggestion, that has helped me in being able to respond appropriately, because its very difficult to understand humor, sarcasm, and intention through the internet.

Case closed...you're right, I'm wrong. You win. Thanks.

 

I realize what you are saying about Peterson is hypothetical, but I don't think it's a good example because 1) he isn't on our team and 2) there have been countless players come out of college who had injury problems but never had serious issues in the NFL. Peterson's torn ligament last year may very well be the only injury he sustains. He hasn't been in the league long enough, IMO, to use him as a valid example in a hypothetical. You also have to consider that Ronnie has always shared carries, and up until last season, he got injured every year WITHOUT being the "work horse." Peterson is the work horse back for Minny so the probability of injury obviously goes up. Ronnie, on the other hand, while sharing the load, the probability of injury should go down. But it didn't until last season. I also disagree that if we had Peterson, that he would be used in a two back system. Sure we'd have someone to spell him, but Peterson IS an elite back. He has the dynamics of a sure fire hall of famer. Ronnie does not.

I realize Ronnie's injuries do not relate one to the other. But he has shown that he gets injured a lot. And if the coaching staff wasn't concerned about that, then he would likely get more of a work load. And this is where I think the trade issue comes in. If someone offers us a reasonable trade, BP and Co. would do it. Not only because of injury worries, but because I don't see us forking over $6-$7 million a year to Ronnie Brown. And that's about what it would take to keep him. I can't see Parcells investing that in a running back. It's just doesn't fit his M.O. If we don't trade him, we'll probably let him go and pick up a compensatory pick for him in the following draft. That's why it would be smart to make a move now because we'll get a much higher pick for him now than we would as a compensatory selection.

I'm not taking the article or articles that seriously. I'm just making a case for why it wouldn't be a huge blow if a trade did go down. Ricky Williams, Cobbs, and a draft pick would be more than substantial in replacing Ronnie Brown. Ricky still has something left in the tank, he's also a good receiver out of the backfield and he is also a pretty good and WILLING blocker.

Bottom line is, if Ronnie stays, I'll be glad. If we trade him, then I would believe that the front office made a good decision in getting some value for him, because it is MY opinion that they will not pay Ronnie the big money to stay. On the other hand, if Ronnie would come back and play for $4 mill a year, then I could see it happening. But I have my doubts about that. Ronnie will won't to go somewhere where he WOULD be THE featured back. By that I mean the back that averages 20-25 carries a game. He won't get that here, and he won't except a lower salary to stay and continue to be part of a two back system. Again, this is just my opinion. But I think it makes sense.

 

I really like Ronnie Brown, but frankly RB's are tough to keep healthy and easy to replace. I do think he's special when healthy, and I like what he brings to the Fins.

I'd prefer to play him this year and see what he can do after all our FA moves, 2 Drafts, etc. I think he could have his best season this year.

 

I think Penny played very well for us last year, and I'm not sure he doesnt hold onto that QB job longer than most people think he will. He's already playing at a level we hope Henne can get to. Now being the huge Ginn and Bess fan that I am, I really like the potential of Henne in our offense. I do think Ginn could have had over 1,000 yards receiving last year based on times I saw him open deep and no ball went his way. Henne could be that X- factor.

That said though, our staff will start the best player. If Henne shows strong signs that he's ready in camp and pre season, I bet he's our starter this year. Penny would be a fantastic guy to have as a backup. But I will say again, I'm not sure Penny won't last a long time in Miami. Especially if we * Gasp * win the Super Bowl this year.

 

I agree. Pennington played very well for us. But there were big plays left on the field which you eluded to about Ginn being open deep a lot. We have to have someone who can get that ball to him before we really see what Ginn brings to the table. Some people think Ginn is a bust. I don't. I don't think he'll ever be the #1 receiver. But he has big play written all over him. But we have to get him the ball.

Pennington may very well last a while in Miami. But Sparano hinted that Henne may well pick up the reigns in 2010. I just wish that they didn't put a lock on that time frame and open the QB competition up. Because, as you said, Henne COULD be the X-factor that takes the offense to another level.

 

Good to know

I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's a discussion. I don't feel any anger or feel my blood pressure going up as I type, it's a discussion. And in discussions each side does their best to present their POV. If one sides think that the other side is wrong, they try to show them why and back it up with evidence to hoepfully change their mind. There is nothing personal about this, sorry you feel that way.

I've called this thread "silly" because it's based on random speculation from a guy whose evaluation of Ronnie is the polar opposite of truth and who is trying to use the argument that the Dolphins won't pay big money to Ronnie, but they'll shell out the bucks for Anquan Boldin. The criticism is of the topic, not the posters, but of the topic started by a guy who is throwing crap against the wall at draft time.

Dude, I couldn't care less about how many Thanks I get. It's nice if people find something that I post to be helpful or intriuging, but it's a worthless internet stat that has no bearing on reality. But your response here is a bit over the top, you are taking this way too personally for nothing.

You also said that Ronnie was injury prone and that the coaching staff only used the 2 RB system because they were making concessions out of necessity because they didn't feel Ronnie could carry the load, which is obviously wrong. I posted Sparano's comments, I showed you the progression of Parcells' offenses over the past few years to back up my side, nothing more.

I think you are taking this way too seriously and maybe it is a good idea to take a deep breath and step back. I wasn't insulting you, I made my comments quite clear all throughout this thread and in my responses to you that this whole idea that Ronnie is injury prone, that he can't get tough yards, that he doesn't get better as the game goes on, that he's about to be shipped out of town is nothing more than Lombardi looking for attention and trying to start rumors.

Frankly I'm surprised that this thread has gotten as many replies as it has, I thought as soon as he gave a critique of Ronnie's game that everyone here would see through it, but that didn't happen. The fact that this thread has gone on as long as it has is surprising, it's based on an uneducated rumor.

I never criticized you or insulted you, I think that you are reading way too much into it and taking my posts the wrong way. Sorry you feel that way, but there was no intent on my part to do so.

 

If Henne is ready, then they should have an open competition to see if he can win the starting job. I don't think it will happen this year, but from all indications it will happen next year. While I like Penny, I just can't help but get frustrated with the fact that our offense isn't all that it could be.

As far as the Aikman flashback, he did very well, but we saw what happened to Beck when he was put in a similar situation. He was rattled and lost his confidence, I think throwing a young QB to the wolves can be just as harmful as it can be beneficial. Sure they get game experience, but at what cost? That's a tough one.

 

But those two statements are conflicting. You don't think that the comparison is a good one because he isn't on our team, but you use players from all over the NFL without a time frame to say that Peterson may not suffer another injury. All I can say is that his injuries and Ronnie's injuries come from the same 4 year window, IMO it's a very valid and fair comparison.

They were bad luck injuries though, they could have happened to anyone. Sharing carries or not, you don't choose your luck, it just happens.

I'll point to Sparano's comments, he doesn't feel that RB's should be asked to carry the load. I would have to think that he would feel the same way regardless with who we have at HB.

Brother, I will refer you back to Sparano's comments, he clearly said that they favor the two back system because they want to lessen the RB's workload, not increase it. As far as how much Ronnie will be looking for, it's all speculation at this point. Ronnie could get a hefty contract and with a little creativity from our FO, it could be spread out in bonuses and lessen the cap hit. If this FO wants to pay big money to a player, they will do it and find ways to diminish the kick in the nuts to our cap.

We don't have to settle for a compensatory pick, we could tag him and ship him out like the Pats did with Cassel. I know alot of teams would be interested to get their hands on a player of Ronnie's caliber, I'm just not quite sure why we would want to rid ourselves of one.

Ricky is one slipup away from a permanent vacation away from the NFL, no team is going to give him a major role in an offense unless they have a RB like Brown splitting time with him. Ricky left the NFL because he didn't want to be the man, he didn't want the increased responsibility and workload, and he's slowed down quite a bit from the Ricky Williams that we remember.

Cobbs.....Cobbs is overrated by our fans. He's a good situational back and he's a good special teams player, but I wouldn't be comfortable giving him 150+ carries a year, especially with Ricky infront of him.

A rookie is just that, a rookie. Not only would we be crossing our fingers that he wasn't a bust, but we would be paying him (Moreno, I'm assuming) alot of money based on hope. If we were to draft a RB and let him play behind Ronnie and eventually be his successor, that's something that I could get behind. But trading away your best player and hoping that you can find someone to fill his shoes is beyond risky.

We don't know that, and until we have some confirmation that the FO doesn't want to pay him or that he won't accept anything but top dollar, the speculation is just going to run us around in circles. I think Ronnie will try to get the best contract that he can, but I don't think he'll be a hardass in negotiations and end up leaving. We've had other players who were perennial ProBowl players who made top dollar, but were willing to renegotiate in order to sign FA's and help the team.

It's not as unheard of for players to take less to stay in a good situation as some people might think.

 

And that's what frustrates me the most. It's not like our players can't get open, they are but the QB just isn't looking them down because he knows that he can't make the play or feels uncomfortable. We have the ability to open up our offense, it's just that one player is unable to make it work.

 

Thanks L2G.

 

I was hoping to have traded him a couple of years ago, I sincerely believe he was a major disappointed for such a high pick. He reminds me of Terry Kirby, his running style.

d-1