Chad Pennington Limiting our Offense? Numbers say otherwise...

That is complete BS. Saying Pennington doesn't have a strong arm and limits the offense especially in throws beyond 20 yards and showing stats to back that up, is not showing distain.

 

They showed a stat that shows he isn't effective at throwing over 20 yards.

Are you saying that if you take Pennington and add in a stronger arm then Miami's offense would not be more open?

Miami did an excellent job of using what they had to their best ability with Pennington.

 

the QB gets too much praise when a team wins and too much blame when they lose...

Penny obviously helped us, he didn't lose us ball games, he didn't make many mistakes... hes a great QB, but his physical limitations are such that he can not make all the throws, i dont see why this is so hard to understand...

 

what does it being the best its been in years have to do with anything? we are limited in the plays/passes we can call, therefore the offense is limited... does not mean we cant have any success, we obviously did... but it is still limited in what we can do with Penny at QB...

 

I've got to raise my hand on the John Beck being great one...I really thought he had the skill to play in the NFL but he never saw the field again since his stint in 2007..

As for Pennington, what's not to like? I'm certainly not tired of winning football games, and he can do that for us.

 

He kind of reminds me of Greise. Greise was a field general. He could march the team down the field down by down.
I think it takes brains, skill and pure determination to be a good qb. And I think chad has that in him.
I also think a good qb is one that is for the team and not his personal stats and ego, like Chad.

 

personally, when i say limiting our offense... i mean limiting what it is capable of doing... not limiting what it has already done...

 

I realize Cutler has a strong arm, but to me, he's just not a "winner". Some guys have "it", others don't. Maybe he's just been on bad teams in college and in Denver and he'll prove me wrong in Chicago. But to this point he is a glorified Jeff George. JMO though.

 

And there it is, Chad Pennington wins football games for us, his stats are secondary.

Nice anecdote about Bob Griese DDebby, Field General is a good way to describe them both.

I pointed out in another thread that "if' Pennington plays 13 or more games, you can pencil in 3,000yds, 15 TD's, and an above average Td to Int ratio and a 90% Qb rating.

That puts him ahead of Griese statistically, but behind Dan the Man, even late in his career Marino was amazing statisically speaking.

 

I'd be happy making it to the AFC Championship GAME, let alone winning the thing, we haven't been to the game since the early 90's, we haven't won a playoff game in 15 years or so...

 

Jay Cutler limits his offense just as much as Chad Pennington.

 

it seems we are trying to associate limitations with a lack of success ...

NO ONE on this board is saying that Pennington hasn't / won't be successful ...

most on this board do understand that Pennington does have some limitations as to the plays he can execute -- as does every player in the league ... less play action, he can not go deep -- does that mean we can't win a SB, NO ... it just means that we don't have any exciting explosive plays to watch ...

NO ONE wants to trade a trip the the SB this year, for trading out Pennington -- even for Henne (who most, including me, believe he will be a longtime successful QB here 'potentially' starting next year) ...

just like in sex ... we would like a little umph every now and then ...

 

Actually that's probably a very good way to put the debate into perspective, IMO.
To me any so called limitations that Pennington has he is able to compensate for because he's aware of his arm strength.

 

I've said it before, Pennington's lack of arm strength is more than made up for in his other qualities. His, intelligence, his leadership, his accuracy. He's remarkably cool under pressure and can efficiently pick apart a defense. He's the best QB we've had since Marino. Hopefully he can keep it up this year.

 

And this post brings absolutely nothing whatsoever to the debate. You can do better than that.

 

If you had to score 40pts a game to win, which QB do you want Cutler or Pennington.

You might be a homer if you say Chad Pennington.

It's nothing against Pennington and what he does for our offense, but it opens the mind to a different perspective.

 

Good thing teams rarely give up 40 points a game

 

Not at all, but that's a strawman argument. The RB plays an important role in those stats as well, so how exactly are we supposed to use them to determine how Pennington limits our offense?

I admire your effort in going back and finding stats, but the ones that you used are faulty.

Again, another strawman. This has nothing to do with how our team played statistically 10 years ago, it has everything to do with how our offense operates out on the field and which plays are used, which ones aren't, and how the defense plays us.

I gave you the most meaningful stats based on those conditions, they show you that Pennington doesn't make throws that he knows he can't make. His passing zone is within 20 of the LOS, because of that defenses don't fear the long ball like they would against a Jay Cutler. The numbers prove that without a doubt, Pennington just doesn't make those throws with any regularity. As such, defenses shorten their zone, they play closer to the line and cheat against the run, meaning the running game has less room to operate and less room for error. Guys like Ginn are misused because Pennington can't make throws to utilize their talents, again the numbers show that conclusively. Pennington's completion percentage drops dramatically once he throws outside of his zone.

The argument has never been that we can't win with Chad, the argument has never been that our offense isn't better with Chad than it was with Jay Fiedler, it was, is and has always been that our offense is limited because Chad doesn't have the arm to throw deep, that defenses shorten their zone and cheat against the running game. Any other characterization of that argument is a strawman.

 

Actually, last season we came back from being down to the Chiefs in 10 degree weather, and one Dolphins teams of old would have lost, But Penny did pull that one out, our Defense was getting scorched.

 

Again more strawmans.

I remember those conversations well, I was right smack dab in the middle of them and the people on the otherside were reactionary and basing their opinions on nothing more than knee jerk reactions.

"Matt Ryan is a BEAST" .......before he had played in an NFL game

"John Beck SUCKS!".....when he was thrown into a starting position without being prepared, without a decent supporting cast and with players who had given up.

"Chad Henne is a BEAST!".....see Matt Ryan

"Chad Pennington is a BEAST!"......despite years of comments from Miami fans to the contrary, some of whom are the ones now [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]calling [/FONT]him a beast. Not too mention statistics that flat out tell a different story.

Strawman's don't win you an argument, they only emphasize the fact that your original point isn't supported by facts. Noone is saying that Chad Pennington sucks, we're pointing out a reality that is backed up by hard facts. Attempting to change the subject or mischaracterizing our position is silly and does nothing to support the purpose of this thread.

 

unfortunately that's one that can't be tested

The numbers you showed have nothing to do with the argument. Why, when the issue is how Chad limits the offense, would you post stats that Ronnie Brown is a big factor in? Team stats do nothing to refute our argument.

And again, noone is saying that Chad sucks, we're simply (and correctly) pointing out that our offense is limited by Chad's abilities. The stats that I posted are the most accurate and relevant to the conversation.

 

Interestingly enough,
Denver scored more than 40 points once last year. (41 against the juggernaut Oakland)
Denver scored fewer than 20 points 7 times last year
Miami did not score 40 points in a game last year (but did score 38 twice)
Miami scored fewer than 20 points 8 times last year.
Denver's record was 8-8.
So I've got to say Cutler certainly can't be relied upon for that 40 points per game.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2008.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2008.htm

 

what does that have to do with the question? would you rather cutler or penny if you had to score 40pts in a game?

95% of the NFL world would say Cutler...

theres a reason Penny has never thrown for over 25 TDs... theres a reason hes never lead a top 5 offense... there is a reason the Jets were so willing to look for his replacement and move on from him...

I love chad, and am glad we have him, but im not one of those fans who can never see a negative in any of our players... his arm strength limits:
-redzone TDs
-deep sideline fly patterns
-deep outs
-separation needed by our WRs

its just the way it is... hes a stopgap here and our FO feels the same way apparently...

 

I didn't mean for this to turn into a Pennington vs Cutler thread, I was merely using Jay as a comparison to show the frequency (or lack thereof) of Pennington's passes over 20 yards. To directly compare how Pennington has done to how Cutler might do in Miami is pointless because that's something that will never be answered.

 

1. Why is 40 pts the "magic number"? As was pointed out, we scored 38x2
2. "Never led a top 5 offense" Which proves...what?
3. That is why we brought in Pat Turner and tried to upgrade the Oline, if we are going to rely on R+R, we should be able to power the ball into the endzone in the first place.
4. Every Wr needs seperation

Oh there are issues with Chad Pennington, there are issues with every QB, he does win games, and he does put up respectable numbers, if we sink this season it won't be because of Chad Pennington, one can dream about Chad Henne awesomeness, but it's purely imaginary.

 

but that had nothing to do with the argument... overall, the offense is limited to shorter passing.. the splits do not lie. No one in this thread is insulting Penny, we are simply making an observation that "your" premise, and the way you have presented it do not support the original contention that Penny doesn't limit the offense. When a defense is not afraid of the long ball, it enhances the defenses ability to control "other" aspects of the game.

Just because the offense produced the best numbers "we" have seen since Danny, doesn't mean it isn't limited. Review the splits that Mike posted.

 

Indeed, I would put forward that the line of thought of "limiting the offense" is a sort of pointless as well, the goal is to win games, nothing else particularly matters.

Now this is a bit of homerism, but consider that this is the first offseason since 04 that Pennington is 100% healthy, his shoulder, his ankle, both are as good as they are ever going to be, it will be worth watching to see if he throws with a bit more zip on the ball.

He might, it's one of the things "us" fans get to watch for.

 

It's an example of the old saying "be careful what you wish for". Every one of us; and I believe I know you well enough to say that you are no exception, are hoping Henne is our guy for the future - that franchise QB that we've been sorely lacking for years. But I have no reason to rush Pennington out the door prematurely just so we can (potentially prematurely) usher in the Henne age.

 

It's not that I don't want to see Chad Henne, far from it, but I've followed the NFL for three decades now and "know" a rookie Qb can fail miserably at first, or for the whole career, there are no guarantees with a rook/young Qb.

Henne may be Phil Simms jr, he could also be Matt Leinart jr.

So if we have a pat hand in Pennington, play it, he can win games, when he's right physically he can really move the offense, and he's proven and he understands what we are trying to do and executes at a high level.

Chad Pennington is the Anti Daunte Culpepper, C-Pepe has a huge arm, is he still in the NFL?

 

its just an example... and you still haven't answered the question, i think its a valid question...

that he most likely can not lead a high powered offense with his limitations

that doesn't remove the fact that he is not a good redzone QB TD wise, regardless of what we'll try to do to overcome his deficiencies there... his arm strength limits his ability to make tight passes in the redzone, thus limiting his TD totals

of course they do... and they need more separation when Pennington is the one throwing them passes since Penny can not fit it into tight space... im not saying its a good thing or a bad thing, im just stating a fact...

 

But I did ref: post 67

 

Is it an example, or a valid question?

Seeing as we did score 38 twice, Cutler topped 40 pts once, I'd say why not Pennington? Cutler's record was what in Denver 24-22 or something like that?

If you ask me, who would you rather have as the starting Qb heading into the 2009 season, then I'd say Culter, he's younger and has more upside.

My take is the Jets can't draft very well, the one dominant type player CP had in NY was Curtis Martin, Coles was just "okay", other then those two, the Jets did not really have the ingredients for a top 5 offense IMO.

It also should be noted that Pennington's best years in NYC, Martin and Coles were in their primes, and CP did well.

Sure, if one looks only at stats and not wins, if we manage another 11-5 season, and CP has 15 Td's, to me he was massively successful for us, it's about "W"'s not TD's.

Sure, despite that CP threw for 3,700 yds and 19 td's and had a 90% efficiency rating, it may not be pretty, it is effective, C-Pepe could throw frozen ropes to receivers and doesn't put even those numbers.

 

haha, why are you guys avoiding that question

if someone came up to you last season and gave you a choice of QBs put into the same situation, and asked, which QB would you choose if you have to score 40pts in a game, Cutler or Penny?

who is your choice??

im not asking how many pts did offenses of their respective teams score last year, im not asking who had a higher TD to pass play percentage, im not asking about any stats or anything like that... its a who would you choose question... im guessing by the evasiveness that your true answer you dont want to admit

 

this is not the subject at hand... the numbers were posted for comparative value..if you wish to discuss who you want start your own thread.

 

i dont see what that has to do with a QB that limits our offense... i see absolutely zero connection... if you want to talk about who can get the most Ws on what team, start a new thread... this is about Chad limiting our offense...

yes penny had a career year, it was great for us... what does that have to do with WRs playing with him needing more separation? i didn't say he cant be successful, i said his weak arm can not fit the ball into tighter windows therefore the WRs need more separation... so this really has nothing to do with any of that

 

This is your opinion. In fact the key words you're choosing (underlined) to use are subjective terms.
Myself I think getting into the redzone ie: 20 yd line and closer does the opposite of your contention. IMO it actually plays to Pennington's strengths. You are asserting that Pennington has too weak an arm to throw the downfield passes that are required for a high powered offense, right? However it shouldn't be argued that he has an "NFL caliber arm" (whatever that may be, right?). Nonetheless, shouldn't it then be said that his forte would be shorter passes? That would then fall within the redzone parameters.
As to who I would rather have as QB if I needed 40+ pts, I thought my statement made my opinion obvious. IMO one is as good as the other. In needing 40+ pts neither has the edge. Cutler has led his team to a 40+ game once in his career. SO IMO believing Cutler to be the better choice is wishful thinking only.