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Brian Billick on "Why" the Wildcat won't work long term

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, May 27, 2009.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    http://wnst.net/wordpress/brianbillick/2008/11/29/wildcat-offense/


    1. B Billick is a sharp cookie, but I disagree with spped and athleticism being that much of a factor, that could be a reason why no offense would ever work in the NFL.

    2. The roster limit is probably the best reason why it wouldn't work long term, the offense requires maybe 5 players who can run it and have to perform, though that is not that high of a mountain if one thinks about it.

    3. The Rb can't threaten the defense with any semblance of a passing attack, that would seem to be true, but mostly because no Rb has really tried threatening the Defense with a credible passing game.

    It is not that much of a stretch to say Pat White could do that out of the Wildcat.

    And interestingly, we have P White, Ronnie Brown and ex HS Qb Devone Bess on offense this season.

    4. The pounding a Wildcat Qb would take is probably the largest limitation, but that is more of an unknown then a "cannot be done" because once again, no one has tried the WildCat over a long enough period of time to see if the pounding would be that much of a factor.

    HC Sparano has mentioned that initially, what the WC did accomplish was confusing the Defensive Assignments, it wasn't that the Oline was putting a hat on a defender, it was they didn't know thier assignments, to me that means the WildCat could conceivably work over a full season as Olinemen become more skilled at blocking for ithat offense.

    Defenses will improve against it, however the offense can also increase their performance in running it.
     
  2. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    What is Billick talking about? Who ever said the wildcat would become a fulltime offensive system? It's just an extra package designed to take preparation time away from the opposing defense. If a team decided to run the wildcat fulltime, then they could just carry 2 WRs and fill the extra spots with wildcat personnel. But no one is going to do that, because thats not what the wildcat is for; and thats why Billick is no longer a coach.
     
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  3. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    I don't think a QB could withstand it long term.

    The two guys we talk about most, Pat White and Tim Tebow, got banged up running similar kinds of offenses full time in college. Even Michael Vick, at 7.5 carries a game over his career, can't withstand it.

    But not only will the Dolphins challenge Billick's opinion on the matter (as a staple), so will New England (in 2010 when they draft Tebow). And perhaps Tennessee (as they still have Vince Young), Seattle (Seneca Wallace) and whichever team signs Vick.

    OT: Billick wrote this last November, if that makes a difference.
     
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  4. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    he is right on 2 points ...

    it is a change of pace formation / system ... and should not be run for extended periods of time, unless on a particular day - a team is getting riddled by it (ie. the match up dictates it)

    a QB could not run this formation / system full time and last 16+ games ...

    on the other 2 points ...

    well, your roster is dictated by your schemes, so - if we have to sacrifice '1' roster spot for White ... that doesn't seem to outlandish ... especially, with our FO - who mandates that players be multi-faceted.

    Teams have done a good job thus far against it, well - because, it hasn't been too challenging to stop ...
     
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  5. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    And this coming from the "offensive genius" Billick, who won 1 SB purely with Defense. Not the strongest of opinions IMHO.

    We will likely rarely ever run the formation more than 5-7 times a game, that doesn't sound like a QB killer to me.
     
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  6. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with Billick. The WC will continue to evolve and become more of a spread formation. It will continue b/c that's what the colleges use and it's what more of the QBs coming in will be trained to do. The NFL rarely gets their QBs from anywhere else.
     
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  7. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    Actually you beat me to that part.
    Billick proved himself to be something significantly less than an offensive guru due to his consistent middle of the road offenses in Baltimore.
    However he absolutely loves to use 24 dollar words in an effort to convince everyone that he is smart.
    Anyway.......
    I don't think anyone wants to make it a "staple" the way you might use a counter play or single running back. But I also believe that Pat White is going to do more than just line up as our WC QB.
    Mostly I just laugh at the skeptics. You just know that a lot of people didn't think that passing the ball instead of running it would be successful long term. "hey its going to be hard to find people who can throw the football that quickly and that accurately"
    Interestingly enough a fair amount of RB, WRs (and CBs) in the NFL started off as QBs in HS or even college.
     
  8. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    If that happens, I think Universe collapses in on itself.
     
  9. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    He's right, it's best used as a change of pace formation and teams will catch on pretty quickly to the new "wrinkles".
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I think the key to that is, the Wildcat will have more then one Qb, White, Brown, and maybe Bess or Ricky Williams.

    Just the defensive preperation for the tendencies of 3 ro 4 different WC qb's would be a nightmare.


    That is why a Qb who can both run at an NFL level and pass at an NFL level is required, IMO to be successful the "qb" has to be able to run the standard offense as well as the WildCat offense, 5 straight running plays won't get it done, to really use the thing they must shift in and out of the formation and still run both offenses credibly well.



    Well, it is a copy cat league.

    IMO it doesn't matter, we pretty much ran the same plays but the Oline was poor by the end of the season, 2008 was more a glimpse then the offense within our offense that IMO we will see.

    P White as the Qb go with 4 Wr, then audible into the Wildcat, then run the stock offense, that will be fun to watch.
     
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  11. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Which happens with every offensive system in the NFL, the key is controlling the tempo and execution.

    ESPN on the Wildcat:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76A82ANqKec"]YouTube - Gus Malzahn interview on ESPN about Wildcat package[/ame]


    Vince Young and Pat White (though I disagree with that comparison) with some spread offense highlights:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_uICHrI79s"]YouTube - Texas Longhorns & West Virginia Mountaineers[/ame]


    Watch the language on the second one though...:)
     
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  12. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    Absolutely, brother. Regardless of schemes, formations, etc....whatever.
    If you can place yourself in the driver's seat - set the scene to be proactive and not reactive then you're setting yourself up for success.
     
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  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That is how you win with a change in your offense, surprise helps but sooner or later it comes down to execution.

    Interesting footnote vis a vis Pat White and the WVa offense.

    DC Pasqualoni and George Deleone have either defended against it (at Syracuse) or taught players how to operate in the Spread.

    And Brannon Marion may be a better shot at making the team then was thought previously, Tulsa runs the spread and has WildCat options in the offense.
     
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  14. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i agree with billik although if pat white is limited to 15 plays a game i could see how the wildcat could pose significant problems. i think thats why parcells and sparano decided to improve upon it
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Billick is a smart guy, I do question some of his conclusions simply because the WildCat has not really beeen run in the modern NFL in a serious manner.

    I see an mini offense with maybe 10 plays that 3 or 4 erstaz Qb's can run but each bring their own strength to the table.

    If anyone is interested in the Wildcat addition to the Spread offense, and you are capable of reading CoachSpeak:

    http://www.thespreadoffense.com/2009/04/utah-2003-video-clips-zone-read-out-of.html

    [​IMG]

    or

    [​IMG]

    Fascinating site/blog, apparently the man is a Coach and he really disects the Spread and the Wildcat with a eye specifically to Pat White's role in college and the NFL, and what Ronnie Brown did last season as well as colleges that run that offense.
     
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The Dolphin version "explained":

    http://bal.scout.com/a.z?s=118&p=2&c=863498

    We ran four plays in the WC last season:

    The Steeler:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    "Power"

    [​IMG]

    "Counter"

    This is the formation that Ronnie was most likely to pass out of, he hit Fasano on it against the Pats for a TD.

    [​IMG]

    This is the Browns wrinkle on the Wildcat.

    Apparently, Pat White was "the guy" to run this thing according to Scouts and FO types at the Combine, with Atl's Dmitroff saying:

    3 basic plays though? That is not enough to really make this mini offense very successful over the long term, to few options to defend.
     
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  17. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What happens if we line up in a Wildcat formation, the defense stuffs the box to deal with a run, and White gets the snap, drops back, and throws it over everybody's heads into the resulting single coverage? How do you deal with a Wildcat QB who can also throw the long ball accurately?

    As much as I respect Billick for the job he did with the Ravens, I disagree and think that this is going to be a movement, similar to what happened when the T formation and the I formation came into use.
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That is what White may bring to the table cdz, the "Cure" for stopping the run out of the wildcat is putting the Free Safety in the box at the line of scrimmage, when the Qb can pass effectively, someone will be man on man covered as the Safety is occupied.


    What killed the single wing as DE who can run and pursue from the backside, QB Coach Lee solved that problem by adding additional blocking on the backside of the formation.

    The analysis video featuring Ronnie has CP, Ricky W and Ronnie explaning that they thought the WildCat was not going to work, and then why the Patriots couldn't stop it when we started running the thing.

    But what is of more interest is, 3 plays, that's it, we can do much better then that and as Sparano explained "we left alot of meat on the bone last season".
     
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  19. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    not true. more than once we ran the wildcat from a 3 rb shotgun set

    (ricky)(ronnie)(cobbs)

    ronnie had the option to give to ricky on the playaction, or use cobbs as a lead blocker. rickys td vs seattle was from this set.

    we ran a lot more than 3 plays from the wildcat last year.
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    billick, belicek, whoever you wanna put in there has no clue if they say it will not sustain, its never been freakin done for cryin out loud, and the reason for that is a team has never committed to the formation, while committing to a player that can execute it properly. You put Pat white and ronnie brown in the backfield together with some misdirection, with football players that are intelligent, big and strong blocking for them that have shown the ability to exectue x offense, and you can call it whatever you want, its gonna work, its gonna smash you in the mouth, AND its gonna make you look silly on certain plays.

    Its just football man.
     
  21. siciliansith

    siciliansith Resident Deviant

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    Ok this aint much detailed compared the schooling i recieved reading the page full of posts.

    But if this is not a viable change of pace offense and new scheme, what was the K-gun? Under Levy and Kelly the No-huddle run n shoot was used at opportune times much like our scheme, they utilized it perfect got themselves to 4 superbowls? Now again if we are talking about personel they had a great defense to allow for a mishap if they turned the ball over quickly. But on offense they made it work. I believe the jurys still out on the wildcat and it only takes the guts to try.
     
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  22. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Billick is right in saying that it isn't going to work as a long term base formation for the reasons he espouses.

    He seems to be endorsing it as a change of pace formation which is where we were most effective in its use, and he also pinpoints the weakness in the formation we had last year with Ronnie Brown not being a big enough threat in the passing game to stop good defenses keying in against the run.

    What I want to see is Ronnie Brown, Pat White and Chad Pennington on the field at the same time, because it will keep opposing Ds guessing until the last possible second about whether we're running a WC play or a regular play with Pat White at WR.
     
  23. late again

    late again Senior Member

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    I know, it's short sighted and close minded to say flat out "it wont work in the NFL"
    If the defense doesn't know when it's going to be sprung on them it's going to work some of the time. Besides, if they commit too much to trying to defend the WC then they're going to leave themselves open for Pennington to call an audible and then something else will work. Its just like anything else - once a team starts to show their own defensive tendencies in defending our WC we'll pick up on it and make our own adjustments.
     
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  24. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    There shouldn't be any doubt that the Wildcat is not a base offense, it is a change of pace to keep the defense thinking and to give them something else to prepare for. I don't think anyone has said this will be an offensive scheme that Miami is going to use in place of the regular offense. Thats like saying the halfback option pass wont sustain itself because a team will have to draft only running backs who can pass the ball.
    I don't think it is anymore of a trick or gimmick play than the flea flicker, half back option pass, tackle eligible or any number of other plays that are out of the ordinary. I also think the Dolphins are good enough that they don't have to use trick plays but thats JMO.
     
  25. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    Finally, to adapt the style of play with an “athletic” quarterback that could effectively pass and run from this style of play can not be sustained. No quarterback in this or any other league could get through the grueling NFL four preseason games, 16 regular season games and subsequent playoffs. Like the earlier observations, you would have to carry a group of quarterbacks that run this style of play that would be prohibitive given today’s roster limitation.


    How does "HE" know this? It doesn't look like the NFL ran this formation in rescent memory.
    True, a starting QB would probably have a hard time doing this if he played every snap of the season
    That's where a player like Pat White or a Mike Vick can come in and dominate.The actual starter will be rested during the season.I guess I didn't see Brian Billick(who?)address this.
     
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  26. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The Wildcat is more then those plays Onehondo, it's a sort of a "mini offense", meaning the "Qb" has to make reads and the "Rb" has to make reads and there are more then one play to be called.

    For example Pat White comes in, lines up in the WC, we run a dive play, then White lines up at Wr and Brown becomes the Qb, there are several options for that offense, not just a simple "trick" or "gimmick".
     
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  27. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They said about Rockne that the forward pass would never work consistently. It was just a gimmick.

    We were talking about Shula's 347 wins and regular season winning percentage of .676, which averages out to over 10 wins for each of his 33 seasons.

    Well, Rockne: .881 winning percentage over his 13 seasons. All on his coaching and his innovations. Unfortunately, we're too young for that to have happened in front of us.

    I frankly don't know if this coaching staff is sufficiently innovative to change the way pro football is played. I hope so. But we already saw happen in front of us what Shula did. If we see a revolution happen in front of us, too, I don't think anyone except maybe a Steeler fan would argue that there is a better fan experience than the Dolphins have given us. And then we'll go beat Pittsburgh in the AFC championship game. 27-24. By three points in double overtime. And when the Pittsburgh media is interviewing Roethlisberger after the game and a reporter asks a dumb question like "what happened?" he'll say: "Did you happen to notice that the other team out there was the Miami Dolphins?" And he'll mean the whole history of the franchise, from 1966 through the return of the championship.

    I absolutely cannot wait for the season to start. I want to see them try this stuff.
     
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  28. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    next time we meet things will be very different
    he's simply wrong in his analysis
    Balto. will not have the success they had the first time around with a fully functioning & revamped system
    last year we used three plays, one of which with an option to pass
    think about it
     
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Before i get to crazy here, lets remember this quote is coming from a former coach during the beginning of last year..

    I promise you, you wont hear any such comments coming from a coach like belicek. he knows very well where this offense and scheme is heading, especially him, considering how he loves misdirection and spread offense.

    Parcells is leading this revolution, he has studied it and sees the lanes, space and hesitancy in creates, you combine those three things with big strong, smart football players and you have a new type offense..The hybrid 80/20 smashcat..its not a joke, and far from a gimmick.

    I'll go on the record right now...this Hybrid offense will be so sucessful it will make tim tebow into a top 10 pick.
     
  30. siciliansith

    siciliansith Resident Deviant

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    I agree, with changes made and players indocranated into the system i feel that it will be more potent. We have astablished a legitimate passer into a offense that created 7+ yards per play last yr. Now its been beeting to death that we got shut down by the blitz i'm one that is holding out hope, while not base offense it will be used liberally
     
  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    they will not be able to blitz anymore.

    Thee hardest thing to do for a defense is to defend the blood zone and passing areas once committed to a blitz. Pat white will be perfect in setting a defense up. We so want them to blitz, because thats when pat's skills will be on display. running around scrambling behind the l.o.s, throwing on the run, and tucking it, finding lanes, and running for first downs.

    Its woodstrock on steroids..lol
     
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  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Billick is largely credited for bringing the Spread to the NFL in MN.


    Could be, remains to be seen, I do think this is not a fad for the Staff, they are dead serious about running that offense.

    Depends largely on what "we" do this season, keep in mind Dick Jauron ran the spread in Chicago in 2003 or so, and by the next season it had been "solved".
     
  33. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    It the Patriots draft Tebow, I will throw up a little in my mouth.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    one thing to keep in mind brother, is that the offense requires serious discipline.. The ability to execute one set of downs in the proset, then the very next in the wildcat is whats so intriguing, now some will say 'well that will screw up all the timing', for which i will debate, we have been training for that immediate switch for a year now {nobody else has}, i believe we have intelligent players on our offense that are ready to imbrace and execute accordingly, almost like, the non rhythmic, back and forth of both offenses {80/20}, actually becomes our rhythm.

    Wait til this moment happens, The wildcat personell comes off the field while the proset personnell comes on {basically chad for pat} except for one thing, pat stays on the field with chad and ronnie in a two back set....{slow evil laugh building into a creshendo}lol
     
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  35. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That is not a argument that I would make Dj, and that is an argument that is made at spreadoffense.com..

    Check this out, Pat White, 4 Wr, 3rd and 7 from our 40...
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He'll go to high imo, someone is going to hitch their wagon to that man, and personally i wouldnt blame them one bit.
     
  37. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    I'm just glad that we have a front office that is willing to try new things and break out of the box. Maybe the wildcat doesn't work long term. I still think it's worth the experiment.
     
  38. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    The first reason is spot on why it won't work long term in the NFL.
    It's why many teams had given up on it in the college ranks.
    Sure it works wonders against teams with which theres a great disparity in talent levels however, anyone remember how those wishbone option teams fared when they ended up coming down and playing the highly talented and speed filled teams like UM and FSU in the 80's and 90's?

    Billick is right on with his assertion.

    The quote from Smiley is a foreshadow of how this upcoming season will go if were a successful team. We'll continue trying to make the wildcat more of a focus and it will continue to give lesser and lesser positive results as it did last year as the year wore on. At that point we'll stop screwing around with it and focus on building a solid core offensive unit.
     
  39. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    A lot of people on this site are counting on it. :lol:
     
  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think your joking, but if not, i would like to say this,i believe i spend more time then anyone on this site besides my boy alen, i think your discrediting the intelligence of the board.

    If i may speak on behalf of the board,

    #1 we dont think or want it to become our fulltime offense.

    #2 we see the benefit of the two working together, and how the wildcat can actually benefit the base,and how effective considering our personell {coaches and players} the wildcat can be on its own.

    #3 we dont think that Pat can beat out henne in the base, but every player deserves the chance to prove us wrong. he was drafted with the intent of him playing the wildcat qb role.

    80/20 hybrid smashcat with threats of the pass sounds about right to me.

    So i guess you not only agree with bilick, but you also disagree with the majority of the board AND Bill parcells, Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano.
     
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