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Debate: Offseason Spotlight: Did Dolphins Overachieve in 2008?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by njfinfan, Jul 1, 2009.

  1. njfinfan

    njfinfan The First Lady

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  2. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    one of them made fun of Tony and alluded that it was really parcells team.. idiot
     
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  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I would say we "may" have overachieved, not "did" overachive, the problem with Wilcotts and Baldinger's views are they assume that A) We did not have reproducable results B) That CP and JP had career type seasons and won't replicate their results from last season.

    HC Sparano was a rookie last season, he has no track record for either Baldinger or Wilcotts to say things like the Turnover Ratio or low penalties per game for most of the season can be duplicated or not.

    That is where analysis of the 2009 season falls down, there is no track record to rely on to say with certainty how much discipline with the ball and on the field will carry over into this season.

    As for Pennington and Porter having "career years" it is true for JP, however JP was also a one man pass rush last season, we've added some pieces to the mix this season making a revertion to JP's norm of 10 sacks can be mitigated if JT has 8 sacks, or Wake shows he can sack the Qb in the NFL. So the idea that JP won't be able to carry all the water this season seems a shallow reason to downgrade our prospects.

    Which brings up the real key to our season Chad Pennington, first of all he had a geat year, but not in every statistical category, CP basically had the type of season he used to have prior to 2004's shoulder injury, he was within his career norms in TD's and Yds when he plays 13 or more games and that would mean as long as CP is healthy, duplication is the most likely outcome in 2009.

    And as per usual, they both feel the WildCat won't work this season, most did not think it would work last season either, however it worked well and we added the best triggerman for the WildCat in Pat White, if anythng the WC should be even more flexible and dynamic this season./
     
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  4. NolePhin

    NolePhin Look out for D-Bess

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    I just hope we don't get robbed. What I mean is, I don't mind if we go 8-8, as long as thats the best our players played. One thing I can't stand is when injuries come in to play, and the player and the team get robbed of a great player, sometimes on a record breaking run like Ronnie Brown before he tore his ACL.

    I know its football, and robbed is probably not the right word for it, cause yes it does happen all the time. It just leaves too many "if's" and "but's".
     
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  5. baboo72

    baboo72 Bleeding aqua & orange

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    I don't think we overachieved at all last year. The same people were last year telling all and sundry that we weren't as bad as our 1-15 record.

    Sure, we had some luck when it came to winning the division thanks to the Jets blowing it and Patriots losing Brady in week one but we lost 6 games by 3 points or less so the odd bounce here or there, a pick or even slightly better weather could of seen us going 6-10 or 7-9 so I see last year as a 4 or 5 game improvement - which isn't as much of a fluke as the so called "experts" are calling it.
     
  6. opfinistic

    opfinistic Braaaaains!

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    We had a lot to prove last season, and we had egg on our face after that dismal 1-15 season. IMO we did overachieve to some extent, who wouldn't under last year's conditions?

    New Coach

    Tuna is the Head Man in charge

    New QB with a chip on his shoulder

    Tom Brady's injury opened a window of opportunity and made the East a level playing field

    Ricky and Ronnie were both healthy and eligible to play

    Easy (relatively speaking) schedule

    We won a lot of close games in the 11th hour, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that in itself is a testament to the new regime's influence over the players. They showed up and played 60 minutes of football week in and week out and never accepted defeat before the final whistle was blown.
     
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  7. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    Its funny how last year they were singing the praises of Matt Cassel and how well he was playing and now he is chopped liver and the Patriots were not a good team because Brady was out. Its sounds like they were saying that the Dolphins 11-5 record was a fluke, Saying the Dolphins didn't have injury issues is rubbish as we lost a couple of offensive linemen and still played pretty good.
    They might as well face the facts, Tony Sporano is a good coach who is smart and innovative and the Dolphins are accumulating good talent. With Bill Parcells overseeing everything and Ireland gathering talent this team is in some pretty darn good shape.
    They may not finish 11-5 but they will be a good team and wont give away games, and they wont be an easy game on any opponets schedule.
     
  8. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion there is no overachieving or underachieving. You are what your record says you are. Now you may be a better or worse team than another team that shares your record but there is no overachieving.
     
  9. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I think the Brady thing was lucky. But we were a much better team than 1-15. That was the fluke year. That was the perfect storm. Talent-wise we were a 5 - 7 win team in '07. In '08 we significantly upgraded our QB and depth, not to mention our coaching. We were easily at least 3 wins better talent-wise in '08. That would make us an 8 -10 win team. We may have got some bounces that pushed us closer to 10 wins than 8, but it was no more than what half the teams in the league get every year. If we over-achieved it was by at most a game.
     
  10. Colorado Dolfan

    Colorado Dolfan ...dirty drownin' man?

    I'm so freaking tired of hearing "Brady's back!"

    Someone needs to explain to these folks that the 'Phins aren't afraid of a Brady-led Patriots team.

    In fact, the 'Phins are probably the only team that has given Brady fits year-in and year-out. (Barring '07, of course)

    Enough of the Brady man-love. The 'Phins have never bought into it and they're not going to start now.
     
  11. opfinistic

    opfinistic Braaaaains!

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    Kinda Ironic that the guy who terrorizes Brady the most was off the roster last year, but now....he's....back! 99! :woot:
     
  12. The Aqua Crush

    The Aqua Crush New Member

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    I think most people and media would think we overachieved. I don't blame them for that, their expectations of us heading into last season were very low. We could have won 6 games and they still might of thought we overachieved. But it's not based on our success in 08, it was based on their perception of us going into 08. We had a new coaching staff, well last time we had a new staff, past several times we had a new staff, we failed. So for the new coaching staff to come in with Sparano n co', people weren't believing it this time, not after what Saban and Cameron did.

    The 2008 dolphins even exceeded my expectations of them. I expected a solid turnaround, competative team, many close games, some wins, some losses and a sense of direction that wouldn't have to be abandoned heading into the 2009 offseason. SOmething to build off of. A coaching staff who has the dedication and respect from players. I did not expect an AFC East Championship season with 11 wins. I was thrilled they accomplished it, but i can honestly say i did not expect it.

    So looking back and thinking in terms of what i reasonably thought they could achieve, compared to what they did achieve, yes they overachieved to me. But there was valid, sound football applications both on and off the field that contributed to the overachievement, which to me justify's the turnaround, that this team has confidence, sound football fundamentals, hard working players, focused directional coaching staff, and there for I will increase my expectations of them this year, and i really hope (and believe they can) they overachieve my expecations again this year.
     
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  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think Miami played up to their talent. I do not think they over achieved.

    Plus they were consistant. That is another important part. Plus people stepped up and made plays.
     
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  14. Colorado Dolfan

    Colorado Dolfan ...dirty drownin' man?

    My thoughts regarding overachieving:

    No. The 'Phins did not overachieve. We underestimated them.

    The team had the talent, heart, and drive to do what they needed to do. They had very few injuries and held onto the ball. They fought for every yard and made their opponents do the same.

    If the 'Phins were a perennially bad team, there might be an argument. We're not talking about the Lions, though.

    We, as fans, underestimated them. Analysts underestimated them. Perhaps, even, other teams underestimated them.

    I can handle being underestimated again. :wink2:
     
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  15. njfinfan

    njfinfan The First Lady

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    Wore his jersey out today Jimmy! I can't wait to see him back on "our" field.
     
  16. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

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    This might sound crazy but I think the Pats traded away the wrong QB. I believe Matt Cassel is going to lead the Chiefs to the playoffs this year and Brady is going to start showing his age. He might get injured again or the physical skills could start to decline.

    Cassel was their future. Brady is their past.
     
  17. NolePhin

    NolePhin Look out for D-Bess

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    Just out of curiosity, cause I wouldn't trade Brady at this point, but what would you get for Brady? Im thinking it would definitely involve a really good player or 2 and a 1st round or something?
     
  18. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What does the Pats have to do we our 11-5 record last year?

    One win... one loss... how does that factor in the other 10 games won????

    How does NE factor in our so called," Overachievement???"

    We were a better team than those that never reached .500...Yes we barely beat them, but that was because Tony had the team playing the scheme that best suited them, that was ball control through out...

    In 3 (NYJ, Houston, and 2n NE) of our 4 losses, we were in it till the end...

    This Offense last year was not mde to fight it out through the air, but when tasked it did performed well (both NE, KC)...

    Still the main Offensive theme was smash mouth football, and if that theme worked well (as it did against sub .500 teams), they won...

    We had for the first time in over 14 years a core group of players that were talented and disciplined enough to perform the plays asked of their coaching staff...

    In Shulas last "Hurrah" (1995), we had about one dozen first round picks, and that team ended 8-8... the talent was there, but the players egos were the problem, discipline or lack of was the probelem with that team...

    This lead us into the 4 years that JJ had to straighten out Miamis Cap problems...

    and after JJ, Dave was not a disciplined coach, he was a good guy, and it showed on our bad yearly outings with penalties which were drive killers... those teams were talented enough to go far...the issues again was the discipline and execution of plays...

    Its amazing, NE does it every year without HOF players in every position except for QB, and they are not overachieving because they, again, do it every year... its their coaching staff, and to be more precise its the HC...

    So the Dolphins have a HC that inspires the same discipline as BB and we are "Overachievers?"

    I guess Baldinger is WRONG, in thinking that Mami won't sneak up on teams this year...

    He just stated that they are not as good as others think, and IMO, they may again sneak up on those teams that think like he does...

    But of course he only gets paid to talk and not prepare...for the inevitable...

    that is the return of the Miami Dolphins to the "ole winning tradition"...
     
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  19. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    We were not overachievers last year, we were damn well coached last year. The new regime changed the entire culture of this team, their entire mindset. We went from finding ways to lose close games, to finding ways to win close games.

    We went from injury-prone due to lack of conditioning, to a well conditioned team that had few injuries - lets get this clear right now: that is NOT luck, it is conditioning!

    We went from a team that had no gas left in the 4th quarter, to a team that had more left in the tank than our opponents did in the 4th quarter. That is not over achieving, that is strength & conditioning again, that is training, that is coaching.

    The WildCat can be called a fluke, but they cannot take away the fact it accomplished what our coaching staff put it in for: to make up for our poor OL performance in the running game, which we addressed this offseason IMHO by the way. We also went out and drafted the perfect QB to run the WC and turn it into an even more potent weapon this year in Pat White. Teams will not be able to stack the box to counter the WC this season, because if they do Pat will throw a TD on their butts.

    What the pundits cannot get their head around is Bill Parcells knew he was hiring a really good HC and that they put together one of the best coaching and conditioning and training staffs in the NFL. The low turnovers, the low penalty's, the WildCat, JP's best season, beating teams we were supposed to beat, these are all things that come from COACHING. And what is scaring the heck out of the pundits is Tony is 1 year smarter and more experienced as a HC, this team is 1 year more used to the methods and expectations, and O/D schemes, and this team is going to go out and "over-achieve" again this season. Expect 10-11 wins folks, and at least 1 win in the playoffs.

    Then what are they going to write?
     
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  20. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Part of our "achievement" was winning the division. Brady being injured made that easier. I don't feel that the Dolphins played over their heads or that we would necessarily have had a different record had Brady not been injured. But I do feel that our competition for the division crown was weakened by that injury.
     
  21. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think we did overachieve. I don't think we were "really" a 1-15 team in 2007 and I don't think we were really a 11-5 team last year.

    The biggest reason we finished 11-5 was turnover differential. We weren't terribly good at making the other team give it up, but we were unbelievably good at not giving it up ourselves -- in a tie with one of Parcells' Giants teams for the NFL record, I think. It wasn't an accident. Obviously Parcells focuses, even more than most, on not turning it over, and Chad Pennington is obsessed with it as well -- I remember some interview in which he said that you've got 22 guys' livelihoods in your hands when you've got the ball. That's one of the reasons he is so reluctant to throw it deep.

    That said, we were lucky as well as good. If you could re-run the 2008 season with the same players, I'd bet we would have something like 20 turnovers instead of 13. And we would finish something like 9-7 instead of 11-5.

    Also, history is history. I love Pennington, I really do. Without him, we would probably have been 7-9 or so. But only a fool would bet on him getting through 16 games without getting hurt two years in a row. The Dolphins must feel the same way, since they drafted a QB just for the Wildcat. I also suspect they believe that Pennington's arm has only so many throws in it in a season, and he hit his limit in the Jets game (remember the sailing underthrown bomb that Ginn caught? -- it was a warning of what was to come in the playoffs). So, there are a lot of questions there.

    On the other hand, it looks like the front office has done a lot to make the defense stronger. I don't expect JP to equal last year's sack total, but I expect others to make up the slack and then some.

    I think we'll have a hard time going 11-5 again. But if we do, it will be because we are a better team than last year's.
     
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  22. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We probably did over achieve last year. But they cannot take away what we did last year. From 1-15 to 11-5 is a great achievmant, no matter how you look at it.
     
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  23. jupiterfin

    jupiterfin Mild Irritant

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    If we did overachieve, I'll gladly take it. I'd much rather have a team full of overachivers than underachivers.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
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  24. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    "You are what your record says you are."

    This cliche is thrown around when the media often talk about bad teams. I see no reason to apply a double standard and negate its applicability in this instance of our winning season.

    We are what our record says we are.
     
  25. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    I think there's a difference between being overachievers last year and what that means for expectations this year. I still think we'll be a better, more talented team this year. Whether or not that translates to 11-5 and an AFCE Championship is a different matter.

    Aqua was right, we certainly overachieved from the perception of what we'd be able to do at the beginning of the 2008 season. To expect CP and JP to have career years would have been considered major homer-ism... But they did, and Sparano proved he and his staff were not Bill's lackeys and introduced the WC to the league...

    That said, the question was will we overachieve or underachieve this coming year. That is a loaded question. It's entirely possible that the team has more talent and is a better team and not be 11-5 and win the AFCE. Would that make us underachievers ??? I don't think so but these guys apparently do...Now, if we went to the SB this coming year, then an argument could be made that we overachieved, but not because of having less talent than most of the NFL as we have had prior to 2008, but because it simply isn't expected. Teams like Pittsburgh, SD, Indy, NE and others would have to concede to us and that certainly isn't anticipated...

    I think we will be a better team, whether or not our record shows that and that could bring the question up after next season, "Were we underachievers or overachievers ?"
     
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  26. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

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    I bet they could have got two 1st round picks plus a player. For example they could have got Kansas City's 1st round pick this year and drafted Aaron Curry as well as Kansas City's 1st round pick next year plus Tony Gonzalez.
     

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