Former Husky Donald Thomas Ready To Resume His Rise

Well, if this makes sense, D Thomas's injury and absence is allowing Sparano and Gugs to develop other Guard prospects like Frye and Berger and Lewis and Alleman.

Last season Thomas's injury really left us short handed, with Alleman being a street FA pick up, this season they have a chance to develop a couple of players and see who is the best out of the group to play backup Guard.

IMO, Alleman could surprise this preseason, he is a player with the physical tools, he has had a full season as a Phin and in the weight training program as well as all of the OTA's, if Alleman can play for us or not, we will know as he has no excuse not to be playing well.

 

Hard for an offensive lineman to play with an ailing pectoral muscle. He needs all his upper body strength and conditioning to be 100%. His timing with the other o-linemen won't come back without a full camp. Better to let him heal, go with one of the other guys, and let him work his way back in some time in mid-season.

 

I say give Thomas all the time he needs to heal the right way, and have him come back by the halfway point. That will give us good depth on the o-line heading into the second half of the season, when hopefully, we'll be making a serious run at the playoffs.

 

I didn't really see any progress at all from Alleman last year. He got dominated by teams with bad defenses (i.e. Rams) and absolutely pummeled against better defenses (Jets, Ravens).

Had he progressed somewhat throughout the season in '08, I'd agree with you. But I saw nothing from him last year at all to have any confidence in him this year. I really hope he doesn't prove to be the best of the bunch of Frye and Berger because if so I think we're going to have the same problems we had last year running inside.

 

Donald Thomas...The myth The Legend continues.

 

His back has been injured so far this preseason as well, but the thing to remember is Alleman went from walking the sidewalks to starting for us, he never had the chance to learn our blocking scheme, that makes a difference.

 

No, but he did have a full year to learn the Saints blocking scheme and was put on waivers after one season, that says something IMO. I wouldn't expect much out of him, talent shows through regardless and Alleman looked completely overmatched and out of his league last year.

 

I think we could survive one interior OL injury but not two.

 

I think you maybe right L2G, not based on last season but based on Alleman being on the injury bikes during OTA's, that is the fastest ride off of the Dolphins roster I know of.

 

I know that he looked promising last year,but that's all we can say as fans.
The real issue will be if "the others" can step up to the plate at RG.I personally can't count on DT to be healthy.Even if he is,has he shown anyone that he can man the position long term? It remains to be seen.Stay tuned....

 

Hey, Thomas, Wake, Smith, White, Hope and Hype is the lifeblood of fandom Dj.

 

You got that right ComPadre, however can we get this cat to play an extended amount of football so we can get a grasp of this mans talent. He's such a freakin tease. lol

 

I agree with those who think we shouldn't expect a healthy, contributing Donald Thomas until mid-season.

On a side note, I see the Pats signed Al Johnson, who played Center for us a bit last year. I wouldn't doubt that Belichick has Johnson explaining every detail of the Wildcat plays and blocking scheme as we ran it in 2008.

No matter, our plays and blocking will be different this year. It does, however, mean that we'll have to change stuff up a little more. Including our calls and signals, but that's probably standard practice anyways.

 

You better hope it isn't Hype and Change, or else you're in for a big disappointment.

As far as Thomas goes, both of his injuries (over the past 2 years) can have a negative impact on his play even after he gets back on the field. I don't want him out there until he's ready, if that means that he starts the season on the sidelines, so be it. Coming back isn't good enough, coming back at 100% is what he should be shooting for. I wonder how much a young player, who is worried about losing his starting job, will try to hide from the medical staff in order to get back out on the field.

 

Thomas will return to start the season
there is plenty of depth on the offensive line

 

Really? based on what?

Ndukwe is below average
Alleman is below average

Andrew Gardner and Nate Garner have yet to see the field in a real game.

Berger is a journeyman player who has never even been average enough to stick on a team.

Brandon Frye is another who may or may not be good, but nobody knows yet. What we do know is that he's in his 3rd year and he has yet to see any significant action where he has shown he can be a good lineman.

If D. Thomas turns out to be good and plays, then yes, we have a solid starting OL. But beyond starters it's a bunch of below average or unproven players. Plenty of depth, I do not see.

A couple of praising words from post practice interviews by the coaches isn't enough to sell me on these guys.

 

23rd..you sure do have high hopes brother.

 

Nah, if I can survive a 1-15 season, with the 1 win coming in week 14, disappointment is no new situation for me.

We'll see, to me, my position has not changed, as long as Sparano and Co "know" they need a player for a position, we will be fine, it's the out of the blue injuries that really crush a unit.

Heck Faneca and Kendall (or whomever) are still out and about as UFA's if they don't like Berger, Quinn, Frye at RG, or if they don't feel Thomas will be back in time for the season.

 

23rd, the one thing we do not have on our line is depth. That is something this FO didn't address this off season. When/If Smiley or Grove go down with an injury, no one should feel comfortable.

 

It seems to me we moderately addressed the OL backup situation this offseason. Not with anyone high profile, but they at least brought in a couple more bodies and who knows, maybe our strength & conditioning program and OL coach can get these guys up to snuff. That's what I hope for. Heck, our best pickup this offseason just might be the new OL coach.

And I agree Thomas shouldn't come back until he's fully recovered and ready to be a mauler.

 

Long-Smiley-Grove-Thomas-Carey
the Orca-5 will eat defense alive

I believe by the end of the 2009 season our Offensive Line will be recognized as one of the best in the NFL & is destined to enter the books with the likes of the RedSkin's infamous Hogs because:

1) we have the best set of BookEnds in the NFL: Long & Carey
2) we acquired a top-tier NFL veteran Center during the off season upgrading significantly the position
3) we have two outstanding guards & excellent back-up depth for 2009
4) Coaching & development:

(A) Bill Parcells is the power House of the trenches. wherever he has established a team, he has assembled powerful Offensive & Defensive Lines.


(B) Our Head Coach is an Offensive Line Coach. He made his bones @ both the university level & in the NFL as a premier Offensive Lines Coach. Tony knows the Offensive line.

(C) The firing of Maser & hiring of Guglielmo. Coach G. was the Assistant Lines Coach for what is arguably the top Offensive Line in the NFL, the NYGiants. They will be coached up exceeding all expectation.

(D) there exists a template to build upon: 1. size & strength 2. character (they like leaders, especially team captains) 3. history: they trace them from their HS days playing football. 4. Consistency, love of game, team players that buy into a system & a willingness to work hard & through injuries.

(E) the front line has been assembled after diligent research. the home work was done. the Orca-5 have earned the stamp of approval of the Trifecta. Both Ireland & Sparano talk with great enthusiasm about what the Orca-5 will present to the league in 2009. With the obvious support of the Silent One behind it all.


Where's the problem?

 

Well...

Grove isn't a top tier center, at best he's a 2nd tier center and at worst he's an injury prone center who has failed to live up to his billing coming out of college. Is he better in the run game than Satele? Quite possibily, but he needs to prove that he can play a full season before I consider him to be a quality pickup.

Smiley is tough as nails when fighting in the trenches, but he also has injury concerns. Thomas is a complete unknown who doesn't even have a full NFL game to his name. We have no idea what type of player he is or if he will be able to stand up to a full season of the NFL grind. All of the hype surrounding him came from the vets talking about his strength last offseason, that doesn't necessarily translate into a dominant player, or even a good one. Thomas is really at a disadvantage when it comes to expectations and his future, his injuries have given fans even more time to speculate and let their thoughts run wild as to what type of player he is. If he doesn't live up to those expectations, I'm afraid fans will turn on him and not give him time to develop. As far as depth, so far all I see is a few warm bodies, we know nothing of their actual ability and won't until the season starts.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I would caution not to get too carried away.

 

KC Joyner would disagree.

Stats guru says Miami Dolphins did well with signing of Jake Grove


With training camp opening Aug. 1, ESPN stats guru KC Joyner, whose analysis we often share here, gave us insight into the Dolphins' additions, plus an alarming Joey Porter statistic:

• Joyner's metrics reinforce that Miami got the better of the center swap with Oakland. (Miami signed Jake Grove, then traded Samson Satele to the Raiders for a sixth-round pick.) On running plays where Grove was at the point of attack in 2008, he had an exceptional 90.6 win percentage. That means 90.6 percent of the time, the defender that matched up against Grove did not stuff the hole or make contact with the runner at or behind the line of scrimmage. Those runs averaged 6.2 yards.

By contrast, Satele's win percentage was 79.5 percent, and runs behind him averaged 5.4 yards. Grove's success rate is among the NFL's best and higher than any Dolphins lineman in 2008. Grove also allowed just 1.5 sacks (both coverage sacks), Satele four.

I am concerned about injuries though.

 

Always with the negative waves L2G, always with the negative waves..

 

That's fine, I'd like to see him explain away the times when Grove was pushed backwards like a football sled last year. Not top tier IMO.

Sorry for ruining your buzz, padre.

 

L2G vibes are grounded in reality, IMO. We can be homers and make wishful statements as fact all day long, but it is still only wishful thinking. Until we actually SEE it on the field, it needs to be viewed with caution. Grove may be a tremendous inprovement over Sampson, and I hope he is, but history says he is an injury risk.. riding the bicycle doesn't win games. We have offensive line depth, but just how good IS it.. when the bullets were flying, some of those guys that are being considered quality backups were being mauled.

 

Actually Grove was one of the best Centers in the AFC last season, even better then Jason Brown who people were lusting after, Grove's blocking percentage was either slightly better or slightly worse then Brown's, they both were well over 85% efficiency.

It's beautiful baby..can you dig it?

 

The explanation was in the article:

That means 90.6 percent of the time, the defender that matched up against Grove did not stuff the hole or make contact with the runner at or behind the line of scrimmage. Those runs averaged 6.2 yards.

Grove's success rate is among the NFL's best and higher than any Dolphins lineman in 2008.

If Grove got pushed back it happened less than most other centers and/or his opponent didn't touch the runner or fill the hole. That's basically Grove's job and in comparison to all the other centers in the league he was among the best. I can't think of a better definition for top tier than that.

 

I was only responding to you about you saying Donald Will start the season and that we have great depth... but i like your post anyway.

 

Hey that's great, what were his numbers in the 4 games that he missed? Or the 9 games that he missed the year prior (starting only 2 of the games that he did play in)? For a guy that has only played 16 games once in his career, percentages mean very little. If Grove can't stay out on the field then he has no business being in the same conversation as someone like Brown.

I question how those numbers reflect upon an individual offensive lineman's performance. The running game is so much more than one player, it's not as easy to determine as it would be for a WR and catches or a K and FG's made. How many of those yards are easily attributed to Grove versus his G or the RB? Grove had a hand in those numbers, but I don't know that I can attribute them to him alone.

As for being pushed around and somehow that's a positive, I don't buy it. On a passing play the goal is to keep defenders away from the QB, basically protect the pocket and give your QB (offense) time for plays to develop. If a guy is being bullrushed into the backfield, that's not top tier IMO, regardless with whether or not the defender was able to make a play. When you look at the Atlanta game clip that I posted before, Grove missed key blocks and was pushed around far too much for a guy who is supposed to be a top tier C. ck also took a look at that game and this was his take...

I think we as fans overlook those things and feel that he will perform differently because he's on our team now. Raider fans were jazzed to get rid of him, there's a reason for that, Grove is a career underachiever and is injured far too often to really be effective. That's not how I classify "top tier", a player who is considered top tier is able to stay healthy and dominate at his position, I'm sorry but that just doesn't describe Jake Grove IMO.

 

I agree that OL play is hard to grade but I trust somebody who watches every play of every center to be able to more accurately discern how centers compare. I would bet that every center gets blown up some of the time. One could take those plays and use them as proof that said center sucks. But unless you watch very play of every center you can't accurately say how they compare.

You seem to believe that a top tier center never gets beaten but I'm sure that's not true. I remember seeing Dwight Stevenson get bull rushed on a few occassions and he's the best center I've ever seen.

And I don't expect him to be better than he was b/c he's a Dolphin. The stats show that he was the second best center in the league last year (to Mangold). If he replicates that then I will be very pleased regardless of what Raider fans think.

Actually the fan thing cuts both ways. First I don't find most fans to be particularly knowledgeable so those opinions are considered with a grain of salt anyways. But further some players become fan favorites and can do no wrong while others are demonized and can do no right. That demonization can occur for a variety of reasons. Sometimes the player is slow to develop or he just makes an obvious mistake. Whatever the reason that player is never treated objectively by the fan base again.

 

The 9 games two years ago?



What do they matter? Head to head, Grove outplayed Jason Brown last season.

As for "well he missed X number of games" that same logic should then disqualify Ronnie Brown, or whomever missed games due to injuries and it should be pointed out that missing games in the past does not mean the pattern will continue in the future, for proof, Pennington played all 17 games last season, by averages he should have missed games...right?

 

They aren't infallible though, one man's trash is another man's treasure and vice versa. I've seen scouting reports, the one that Phunwin posted sticks out the most, that say Grove isn't very strong and has issues with pass protection and leverage. We'll just have to wait and see which Jake Grove decides to stand up.

Nah, just not as often as Grove was last year. Of course great players make mistakes, it's the frequency that determines how effective they are.

In oder for him to be effective, he needs to be out on the field. I wonder if his numbers are skewed a bit because of a lack of attempts due to the injury bug, regardless, he needs to be playing in order to be an asset to his team.

That's very true, but you have to look at how the information is being presented. If it's presented in a "he sucks" or "he's a BEAST" type of way, it's easy to brush it off as an extreme. But when facts are presented and used to caution against overhyping, it's a bit different.

 

Zoom

You know what that was, padre? That was the point sailing past your head.

The point being that in order for him to be effective and considered a top tier player, he needs to be out on the field making plays. If he's sitting on the sidelines, his ability is completely irrelevant.

It depends on the type of injuries and how they occurred, I don't believe that Ronnie's injuries would indicate that he is injury prone. We've been over this before, if Ronnie is injury prone, then what does that make Adrian Peterson?

Actually history shows that he has a hard time putting 2 healthy seasons together, so nuts to that argument.

 

So how can any team rely on Peterson or Brown then? That would seem to be your "point", a injury plagued player should never be allowed to start for the 'Phins.

This inspite of Y Bell, Penny, Ronnie, Rickey, all playing 17 games, based on their injury histories they should have never played here..

See above list...always with the negative waves, morning, midday, evening, always with the negative waves...

 

I don't classify Ronnie as an injury plagued/prone player, he suffered his knee injury doing something that he wasn't used to. To me that is a freak injury and not a chronic issue like Grove who just can't seen to stay healthy.

So because they all played last year we can guarantee that they will all play in every game this year? Using past history is a guide, not an absolute. Could Grove stay healthy all year? Sure. Should it be counted on considering that he has only one healthy season to his credit? Nope, history shows that he has trouble with durability.

Reread Marty's post, it's rooted in reality.

Another way to put it, my negative vibes are better than your homer-eroticism.

 

hey i like it when padre is erotic, lol...seriously, i love it when you guys battle. its so homoerotic, i mean homererotic.

 

Ronnie has missed alot of time for a #1 Rb his age L2G, and don't cherry pick, what about Bell, Ricky W, Pennington, even Fergie was coming off of a lost season.

Unless or until Medium Jake Grove goes down due to injuries, why sweat it?

And there is the fact that Grove played on some real garbage Raiders teams, it's a unpretty fact that players can and do give up on seasons or are in no hurry to return, we finished 07 with 15 players on IR for a reason.


As for Marty's view, I don't see why downgrading our own players before Training Camp even begins, sheesh, what are we Jets fans or something?

Your Groveaphobic....

 

I said no such thing. I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth.