per Saban Wildcat creates an "11th Gap" for the offense

I think some might be getting a little carried away with this whole spread offense thing, or iam sorry if iam misinterpreting the phrase...

I think it will be just like last year, predominantly a power running formation, keeping it tight, and close to the vest, with the element of pass now being implemented in, one level up from what we did last year, as well as a lot of decoy stuff so Ronnie can continue to handle the ball and have the defense stay honest at the same time, something he did not have last year.

Space...Lanes...misdirection...Hesitation..Presnap motion...All these things that the wildcat creates, is going to make ronnie a very dangerous man, and ronnie doing that, is going to make Pat very effective in his role.

I guess i just dont see the spread that some are reffering to, I dont think there is need this year for Pat to be handling the responsibilities of that style of offense....His role will be to enhance the Smashcat and ronnie brown.. Baby steps.....Execute and perfect those baby steps, but baby steps nonetheless.

 

add to that "adjust to the ball" i.e. be quick but don't out run the pass, then YAC, YAC, YAC

 

That's a good point. In fact, I see quarters coverage as just such a disguise. It's impossible to know whether it's a cover 1, 2 or 3 from the alignment. Or a better way to say it might be that quarters gives you the flexibility to switch to any of those coverages from the base alignment.

I also favor the 3-4 or even the college 4-4 for that same pass rush flexibility.

I imagine that as the size template changes we'll end up with a four man line and seven very similar type guys behind them. The CBs will still place more emphasis on speed and the middle guys will place more emphasis on size but they'll all be closer. I expect more Sean Smith sized CBs and more 4.5 speed LBs.

 

I think Bpk and I are using the terms "spread" and "option" to refer to more than just the WC. The spread includes the NE and Ariz. offenses. I think the future will bring a merging of those into something similar to what the Gators run now. It's basically a spread/option. That's what I think the Dolphins hope to be able to run with White.

 

how is what we wanna do, anything close to what tom brady and kurt warner do?..if thats a direction we wanna go with the spread, then Henne would be the man for the job, not Pat...now i know you said to merge the two together, but i also dont want Pat running the ball like tebow does, he'll get killed.

I see ronnie brown as the leader of the WC and pat as his sidekick, I see something new, different. simple, power football with Pat as a weapon keeping the defense honest at all times...maybe next year when Pat gets bigger, stronger, he can do some of the tebow stuff, but not this year imo.

Its ronnie's show, and Pat will have his role, in that show....

 

the show is a collective effort of the right pieces or the show won't go on
not about one player but a series of right pieces to make the system run properly

with the addition of White you gain experience in running the SingleWing/Spread (WildCat) & a legitimate passing threat

now we have the right pieces to run the system in place

 

The Gators run a spread option. It's an evolution of the spread run by NE and AZ that incorporates a read option (run/pass) for a dual treat QB. IMO the Dolphins want White to be that dual threat. That won't make him RB's sidekick most of the time. It will mean that White is the QB and RB is one of the running backs. Not every time, but more often than not. I don't think they are hoping they can run that in White's second season. They are hoping to run that this year. That is what we saw White do in the practice reports and videos.

The advantage is that the formation should force the D into man coverage which is an easier read for a QB. So White will add the passing element there. He'll also run, but probably not exactly like Tebow who tends to just follow a G or C up the middle. I expect that we may even see White run an option. Or more frequently a run/pass option to one side of the field. This will make his reads even easier and put him in space against smaller players.

 

Schematically pressure stops all schemes though, so thats almost mute. Teams that want to pressure this year's wildcat will find the ball thrown over their heads.

 

I see what your envisioning.

i see ronnie and pat being interchangable, and totally playing a two man game, with ronnie getting the majority of the snaps with pat still being on the field. You see Pat getting the majority....I dont think hes ready for the spread option Raf.

Sidekick, decoy, minority reps as the wcqb, is how i see Pat being utilized. maybe up the ratio from 10 percent of our wc plays to about 15 or 20.....must keep the presense of the base offense in full affect. cant get to ahead of ourselves.

IMO, it would be a mistake to take the ball out of ronnies hands without finding out what he can do with the ball in his hands, while pat white is on the field with him, keeping the defense honest.

For me, its all about what kinda of space and lanes that are created from Pats skillset threatening the defense, so ronnie has some more room to run, and showcase his own skillset.

One step at a time, master that level, move to the next, and the next level imo, is smashcat with the threat of the pass...how that is conformed and named, i dont know. I think our coaches are making a new offense on the fly.

 

The Ravens run blitzed whenever they seen the WC formation. Having a passing/running threat receiving the direct snap, takes away a defense's option to do so, unless they want to get burned by the pass. This is what White will do for us, and prevent teams from just selling out to stop the run.

 

djphinfan seems to be usually the only other one who is thinking like I am when it comes to Pat White playing this year

I can't see a team that puts such a high priority on ball security using a rookie qb (one that 90 percent of people on the boards seem to think was drafted 2 rounds too high at that) to be prepared to successfully run a formation that we'll be using so much. The Wildcat at this point is still a power football style formation...I just don't see Pat White running through the middle of the line quite yet.

What i can imagine is White taking sweeps like Ricky used to, with the option of throwing or continuing to run. I see him in Pennington's position, running a reverse (with the option to pass like we used in the Houston game) or taking a route to take that CB out of the play.

I don't know, I just don't see them taking Ronnie's direct touches away. Heck he usually doesn't get enough anyway! Maybe a few times White will get a snap, but I cannot see him being the main guy quite yet. Then that just makes him a running quarterback...a rookie running quarterback...yikes.


On a sidenote, I wonder what kind of role Parcells had in mind for Jayson Foster last year?

 

Agree entirely.

There's still the very big "if" of IF the spread option takes hold in the NFL. It may not flourish, for a vbariety of reasons. ONe reason is that you need a very particular type of personnel, and those types of players are very rare. How many Tebows and Whites are there? Precious few.

It also puts a premium on a very versatile running back. The LenDale Whites of the world would not cut it in a spread option attack.

Not sure yet what sort of WRs you would want.... I suppose the same mix... some quick slot types, but I'd think you need ALL your WRs to be decent blockers to run a good spread option where you could be running out to the sides lots.

 

brother ive been battling this subject about white and the wildcat 3 months before the draft.. Iam on the record in saying that we should and would take Pat white in the draft, and, the wildcat was for real and going to become a hybrid offense {there were some fellow brothers that agreed and we sure did battle the majority} but i think most our now coming around, because of the committment from the front office when they did draft Pat..... I wanted Pat for one reason, and it wasnt to run the spread {not yet anyways}, it was to enhance what ronnie brown started and did so flawlessly with power..... now, i may be seeing this with a little tunnel vision here, but to me, i break it down to whats more dangerous of a threat and what skills do i have at my disposal and how those skills get my offense first downs, keep my defense off the field, limit my turnovers, and take the will out of the opponents iam facing {watch highlights of ronnie in sad diego}

To me, its Ronnie runnin the cat {like we know he can} behind a better stronger oline with upgrades at three positions on the interior, and an additionl weapon/ athlete being added, thats basically removing a player that has no value to the wc offense {chad} and replacing him with a player who can literally do it all, from an athletic standpoint. The objective... keeping the defense honest to create those lanes and space that i refferred to in my previous post, so our traditional oline can pound the way they wanna pound, and so ronnie can have that space to showcase that ELITE talent {inside joke} which is not a joke. Thats what the hybrid will be imo.

If some wanna call when pat takes the ball every once in a while 'The spread', thats fine.

 

Exactly.

You know, I just went back and watched abunch of 1999 and 2000 Rams games to see what sort of system Martz was running, and if it had similarities (Bruce, Holt, Hakim wide with Faulk as the runningback) to an early spread (without the option element). I was actually surprised by how often Martz ran plays (passing AND rushing) out of a 2 TE formation or I-form. I didn;t see a lot of similarity.

The closest thing to where we're heading is a hybrid, imo, between the Florida/Tebow system and the Pats spread system with the single back next to the QB... except in our case our Qb is also a Runningback in that spread set.

I feel like that places the REAL extra stress at the linebackers' level. Not the D-line. The LBs require safety help, and THAT's when the probelms begin for the pass defense. It's really not a pass-attack oriented system... it's built, imo, to stress the second tier of defenders (Linebackers) so that they need help. It's a run-strong offense which can pass selectively to "punish" defenses who decide to try to send their LB's some safety help.

Perhaps the answer is more of a 4-6 look, like the old Bears' look, with more agile guys tighter up... like oversized DBs playing LB alignments.

I do expect to see lots more passes go Ronnie's way, even if Pat takes the snap. More screens and option routes for Ronnie. What in the hell does an OLB do when Ronnie is slipping past him, but Pat White is running wide with the ball? Which one does he commit to?

If that LB commits to stopping White, then the Safety behind the LB needs to be pinching up aggressively to get to Brown.

Essentially, the defense is always on its heels, reacting instead of dictating and that's a huge advantage for us.

Inevitably, those safeties coming up to support will get burned when Teddy or our other WRs manage to beat their cornerback. In fact, in this type of Wildcat would a corner even DARE try press coverage, knowing they have no help if beaten? I'd think corners would HAVE to play a cushion. If so, that massively helps smaller guys like Ted, Cammy and Bess get off the line.

The more I think about all this, the deeper the rabbit hole goes with ways to exploit tactical advantages....


IF Pat White can absorb the playbook, execute properly, and pass accurately.... all at NFL speed.

-sigh- If....

 

Actually, a guy like Hartline should be ideal for this offense. He is very good at working against slot-corners for short to medium inside routes (he dominated Vontae in the mini-camp footage I saw on middle routes). Yet, Hartline does have enough speed to release deep up the seam too. He's not a burner, but he is versatile enough, and not too slow nor big, nor too small.

I think Hartline's a perfect fit fot this type of offense, especially if we ever go 3 or 4 wide with it.

 

i like that brother, as long as it doesnt mean staying in the pocket and executing like a warner or brady, i just dont think he can be that qb {too many reads, not big, average accuaracy.}...thats why i think this offense, or at least some of it, has to be made from scratch with ronnie all over the blueprint.

 

Completely agree. While Hartline is not a burner, I believe he averaged 22.9 yards per reception in 2008. Its the route running that stands out, IMO.

Also, great post earlier on the Martz two tight end formation. I really enjoyed it. The two tight end's used out of the run and pass game is often used by Mike Mularkey in Atlanta. They used A LOT of it last year when they pounded the rock with Michael Turner.

 

That's why I think White will be taking the snaps. The spread/option will basically be a smaller playbook with simpler reads. Using this offense is what allows a rookie to contribute some. I'm a big believer in having a QB sit for at least two years when he's transitioning into the pros especially when that transition is from a shotgun to to an NFL drop back. But using the spread/option makes the transition easier. First he's going from shotgun to shotgun. Second, he won't face as many potential coverage reads.

I also don't understand how anybody can think White won't be taking the snaps in the WC when we already saw him do it in practice. Sure RB took some snaps as well (and I think he should continue to do so) but he did that with CP in, not White. I tried to find the article, but I was unsuccessful. Here's a quote from the article that somebody posted though:

"On Tuesday, in a pad-less scrimmage, White took the center snap, scrambled left and threw on the run over the middle for a completion. He faked a handoff to a cutting receiver and threw incomplete in the flat. After another incompletion, he threw a deep completion down the sideline that sent some players whooping.

And that was it. Four plays. Two minutes. You could have blinked and missed the pass arriving to the Wildcat. The innards of innovation often aren't loud or sexy. On Tuesday, it was as quiet as the Dolphins continue to be about the Wildcat."

I just don't see The Dolphins saying we drafted White to use in the WC, which Ireland admitted after the draft, and meaning that they want him to be Cobbs. They wanted a passer. That's why they got a QB. And I don't think they meant they wanted a passer in a few years.

And I agree that the limiting factor in the Gator offense transitioning to the NFL is that there aren't that many Tebows and Whites out there. That's why White was drafted where he was by Miami. There was a credible report that NE was all set to take him in the 2nd and I believe it. That's what gives Miami a great advantage. Other teams can't prepare for it and they can't duplicate it. That's why Miami should and will use it now and not in a few years.

If we just stick with the WC as it was last year then it is just a gimmick. Many teams can duplicate it (in practice and in games). I do think RB is particularly adept at the quick decision making required but he's not unique in that ability. It's not even that much of a problem for DCs to defend after having an off-season and TC to think about it. You just put 9 in the box and match-up. After looking at it during TC the D should have an easier time making the reads and can play downhill. It only becomes a problem for the DC if the person taking the snap is also a legit passer. Then they are at a disadvantage b/c the offense is able to wait until the D commits before deciding if it will be a pass or a run. With the right trigger man the D can always be wrong. Then they have to scramble to get back in coverage. If we put White at something other than the QB then we can only pass (with any kind of consistency) off of a pitch or hand-off. This diminishes (or eliminates) the advantage that our passing game had b/c it gives the D time to recover.

 

While we're discussing just about everything, I have to ask. Does anyone think we could see more 1 gap, 3-4 fronts next season? I don't know how much it was used last year, maybe Disgustipate can fill me on this or someone else, but if Merling starts opposite of Langford, I could see them playing 5 technique instead of head on and then Starks in the middle on passing situations.

I think that if there's a coach in this league that can find enough fronts to stop a spread offense, its Bill Belichick. His scouting is heavily based on hybrid prospects; looking for guys who can play in a two point stance in the 3-4 front and then drop down in a three point stance in a 4-3 front. Not to mention, they just added Patrick Chung to the lineup via the draft. He's not a great player with the ball in the air but he's a complete player, as he can lay the wood at strong safety and then be a very good in the box safety for them. He plays very smart, stays home and doesn't over-pursue from what I've seen of him.

The only thing that I'm worried about in our secondary with the newly implemented Quarters is discipline. We must be a good run stopping team this year, in my opinion. If we don't, the whole Cover 4 look will be in shambles because if we can't stop the run, there comes the play action, draw's up the safeties, and all they have to do is send a tight end on a ten yard up and in route, which will open up the middle of the field for the wide receivers.

 

I could see us using a 1-gap on passing downs only but that really seems to be a against tendency. I think they want most of the penetration to come from the LBs and the DL to take up bodies and play more of a read and react style.

I think BB is very worried about stopping the evolution of the WC. I don't think he's worried about stopping it with out the passing component. He already did that in their second game against it. But I think he realizes that that the Gator offense is the logical next step and that you need versatile athletes like Chung to match up. He's always used the LB/DL hybrids so that wouldn't be new for him.

 

I think if anyone comes up with a defense to stop a spread, its going to be in college. Belichick is as smart a defensive mind as there is, but I think Saban may have an advantage over him. Saban sees it a lot more, and has a lot more time to work on it.

Very true. Considering the level our defense played at last year, and the improvement in personnel along with our defensive staff, I'm not really that worried about it.

 

of course hes gonna get his share of snaps in the wc, but iam thinking that if you take the ratio of wildcat plays that will be executed on sundays this year, ronnie brown is gonna have more reps relative to Pat.

 

I think if RB gets the majority of WC snaps as the QB then the WC will not be anymore effective than running RB out of our base offense. The only real advantage will be forcing teams to use some their practice time on the WC.

 

I think the easiest way is if we leave CP in and have White come in in place of one of the backs. Then White takes the snap and we run the WC or CP takes the snap and White is lined up as the slot WR in the base O. I think that has the greatest potential to screw with the D's mind.

The other thing we could is run a series of three or four plays upon a change of possession. That would make it easy to have White practice just four plays during the week and have a decent grasp of them. That's kind of how we did it with RB last year.

 

I disagree. The wildcat creates a dimension that the base does not. the base is constricted with Chad p and is the reason why we opend this cat up in the first place.. IMO,You put pat white on the field with ronnie, interchange them at the helm, and let them play football together.

 

The WC only creates a new dimension if the D is confused or there's a credible passing threat. That's why as the year wore on our run success out of the WC diminished. The D was no longer confused. They just played it as a heavy run tendency formation and run blitzed. At that point our big plays out of the WC all came out of the pass.

You lose much of the advantage of replacing CP with White if you put White at something other than QB. That's what we did late in the year by having RB pitch the ball to CP who then threw the ball to Cobbs and RW (on different plays). Basically those are just flea flicker type trick plays. If that's all we're going to run just keep CP in.

 

Last year was more 1-gap defense, almost exclusively actually. Matt Roth, early on last year when he was practicing as a DE stated that he was playing alot less 2-gap than he did in Saban's defense.

I think there's a possibility the defense goes back the other way, and is more of a 2-gap defense this year than it was last. Here's a Louis Ellis quote:

Beyond the fact that the Herald goofed up badly by suggesting there was such a thing as a 3-gap responsibility(What he was trying to say is he played 3-technique), but it does suggest a potential change.

It's possible the 1-gap from last year was a transitional form. Where alot of 3-4 coaches will run a modified 4-3 while they are getting their players in and working the technique they want, we had already been doing that with Saban/Capers. They still had guys like Merling and Langford transitioning from 1-gap 4-3 positions, and guys who were better 1-gap guys like Merling, so they used some Wade Phillips elements I think. Instead of both a positioning change/weight change/etc., maybe they did the transition slowly?

 

understand and understood Raf's...

With our oline and the interior being upgraded, with all the horizontal motion goin on keeping the perimeters honest, along with the presense of pat white on the field, I wanna see what ronnie can do running the ball, i wanna see that, Then i wanna see Pat takin snaps and handing off to ronnie {along with an occassional fake to ronnie and pass by pat} to see what kind of dynamic that brings to the table.

 

I noticed some 1 gap defense last year but I didn't realize it was that much.

Thanks for the quote. Yeah, that 3 gap caught me off guard a bit, lol.

I see. Thanks for the explanation and thoughts.

 

Our regime has definite size templates for positions. At QB it's around 6'3, 225lbs. Both Chads are within an inch and a pound of that.

Pat White is six-feet even and 197 lbs.

It's obvious he is not their typical base offense QB.

That said, he is not their typical RB either, is he.

Pat White is a unique specimen drafted to fill a unique role in a unique offensive scheme.


Also, the scheme-advantage of the Wildcat is not actually an advantage. Usually the defense has a one-man advantage (11 on 10) in terms of functional players to cover or block, due to the QB being useless. Wildcat football (that can throw) simply removes that numerical advatage and forces 11-on-11 football. At that point, the better athletes should win.

 

I would be most concerned with Vontae in this regard, not the safeties. In a quarters, essentially there's no over the top help for Vontae anyways... each cornerback is their own safety, essentially (as I understand it). It's four across the back.

The reason I worry about Vontae is he is VERY aggressive breaking to the ball in front of him. Whether it's a run, or a pump fake double-move, Vontae is aggressive at closing down on and tackling the ball carrier in front of him. That makes him a huge target for playaction, pump fakes and double moves.

T.O. has a great double move and I expect that if Vontae plays him, TO gets 6 points off Vontae on that.

 

I think the 'three gap' mistake you pointed out is correct, and that means that Ellis also means he is playing 2 technique, imo, not 2 gap responsibility.

Either way, half the damned time I can;t tell WHAT responsibilities the linemen have by watching.

I do know that Starks penetrates really well, so should flourish in a one-gap system. I tend to like one-gap against the pass, two-gap against the run, or in run/pass versatile situations.

 

This is why it's odd that he is doing no work with the WRs on routes, not doing drills or any WR development, nor runnigback stuff.

Sparano has been adamant that 100% of the focus is, has been and will be at QB.

I agree with you, but how can he step on an NFL field and play at WR or RB if he has not prepared to do so at all??

 

I know that everyone hates Saban, but this is a fairly insightful point of view.

 

Saban: a fine defensive mind

 

I dunno, there isnt alot of 2-technique in the NFL anymore, and when there is its almost always 2-gap responsibility. 2-techniques are what Tim Bowens and Larry Chester did
in 02/03, or what Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa did for the Ravens championship. The only place in this defense where a 2-technique would be used is that weird jumbo 4-3 they use sometimes but I can't really remember the linemen positioning.

 

i have found the axis point where we fundamentally disagree.

You think ronnie is the same runningback running from a proset and that the wildcat does'nt make a difference.

I do.

I think your seeing a different skillset kick in when he's takin the snap out of the wildcat, and is one of the main reasons why ive been hypin up ronnie coming into this season.

Ive said many times, Ronnie's skillset is completely on display and matches beautifully for what the position from a running standpoint requires. You are seeing why based on talent, he was the #2 pick in the entire draft in this formation and i completely disagree with your analysis of him when it comes to him not being any more effective then the base.

You give this guy a better, stronger oline in front of him, you put another athlete {white} that can keep the defense somewhat honest from the formation, and your gonne get a scheme that completely compliments the skillset of a supremely talented athlete.

I know some think that just because we havent seen other backs run the wc its hard to compare, or get a grasp on how good he really is out of the formation, i disagree with that theory as well...i trust my eye, and can see the sense of urgency, and heightened awareness that he gets before the snap. As soon as he touches the ball, all the talent he has, mentally {decision making}, and physically comes together in a split second and the natural talent takes over.

This formation, and the enhancement of it, combined with his talent, is the main reason why ive been coppin this mans jock this offseason.

 

i just made you part of the cool 700 rep club..much respect brother.