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Serious problem with our Offensive scheme

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by DOLFANMIKE, Aug 28, 2009.

  1. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I may be typing as the same time as you Mike. Forgive me as I wanted to make the time useful. :lol:

    http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009082750/2009/PRE3/dolphins@buccaneers#tab:watch

    1:40 Press Man on Ginn (1), Off Man on Bess (2), Press Man on Hartline (3), One LB on the lone back (4), one Free Safety (5), and six on the rush (6,7,8,9,10,11)

    1:50 Cover 2 and we found the hole

    2:01 Press Man on Ginn, Press Man on Hartline, one free safety, two linebackers to account for two backs and six on the rush

    2:10 They are playing Man on the goal line! Watch the TE release at the bottom of the screen. It's a typical "man" mistake. Dude was caught with his eyes in the backfield.

    I agree with you in one aspect. The first half showcased some horrid playcalling. They were playing man for almost the entire game. It wasn't until the second half that we started attacking "man". But remember that there is no evidence that this team would play "man" prior to this year. Who would have thought that they would have a 33 year old Ronde Barber playing on an island.

    But let me give some excuses for the team now. We do not play a man team in our division. We do not practice versus a man team on our defense. We practice to pick apart zones.

    Man can make a team look bad offensively. It covers everything but counter, reverse, fades and combination routes well. It challenges the referees to make alot of penalty calls and this crew was more than happy to oblige. You should know this defense. We watched it for years but we know the end result. You will win some by being physical. You will lose some by being physical. You will not defeat the top tier because they will pick you and your man scheme apart.

    Out of the highlight film provided you saw one zone. They automatically checked to that zone based upon our personell and alignment. If we were going to play 21 personell (two receivers and one tight end) they were going to play man. For the most part, 21 personell is our game on first and second down and we did a piss poor job of responding to the coverage in the first half.

    For all that we know, the playcall situation could be due to the loss of headset communication from the booth. I have not seen a report of it but that was some foul weather last night. Who knows?
     
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  2. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    I guess if you are only familiar with Zone Cover 2 zone with Safeties over the top and CB's in the flat that would make sense. How about the cover 2 variations. Cover 2 man (2 Deep man under) etc. They ran cover 2 deep all night. The Tampa 2 of old wasnt just about CB's sitting in the flats, nor was it just about man under with Cover 2 over the top. The Tampa 2 has alot of underneath variations both man and zone, but is mostly just 2 deep over the top.

    In fact, Rhonde Barber himself mentioned in his interview during the delay that they were still holding on to some of the Bucs old Defensive coverages from the Tampa 2. He went on to say they (the coverages) will always be a part of Bucs football.

    How's that swis cheese smelling now? LOL
     
  3. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    That is true, but I have no idea where to find that stat. So this is the next best thing that I could find.

    There were some short throws for long gains that jump to mind, but there were plenty of deeper throws that resulted in big plays that I can recall.
     
  4. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Were you drinking last night? Ronde only said that after he affirmed Pam Oliver saying that he was being asked to do different things from the past.

    Who in the NFL does not include Cover 2 in their scheme?
     
  5. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    They definitely were in that 2-man under defense a lot. Atleast it appeared to be. Hard to see without the All-22 video...
     
  6. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    O' I am very familiar with zone. For instance if you watch the Chad Pennington highlights all you will see is him checking down and picking apart the zone coverage.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d812328f4/Pre-WK-3-Chad-Pennington-highlights

    But notice that this video is listed as "Pennington highlights". The plays in the first half were being called versus zone coverage. The man defense was causing alot of problems with the routes being called. The Tampa defense was getting off the field by utilizing man coverage.

    So we go into the half. They probably chart the first half. They know a little more about tendancy. So they come out calling plays to attack man in the second half. What happens? Immediate score.
     
  7. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    I hear you. The rain all 3 games looked like it was brutal. That most likely is causing some headaches, but we see rain all the time in Miami so we have to account for it. Again though, although I posted this just after the 3rd preseason game... this is a problem we have had for an extended period of time that doesn't seem to be improving at any rate that is going to make a difference. I understand some of you are saying it's just preseason, don't worry about it... but I just see the same problems that we had last year reappearing and I hate it.
     
  8. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    And you are right too earlier when you mentioned the Bucs were cheating their azzes off holding and pushing past 5 yards over and over. They could have been called twice as much as they were for blatant holds.
     
  9. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Well Mike, I won't get into the long ball issue, though I agree to a point. However, I completely agree on how inept we are when running screens. I've said this many times. I always see teams kill with screens and wonder why we can never seem to have that same success. When we got Smiley, whom was supposedly very good at pulling, blocking on the move and having Satele, whom was also supposed to be very good at that(thank God he's gone because he was absolute garbage, IMO), as well as having Ronnie, whom has amazing hands and could kill with YAC, I would think that we would be able to kill with screens, but..... Oh Well. I don't get that at all. :D
     
  10. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    preseason football sucks. nobody gets to play long enough to get into rhythm except backups. Starters are antsy and because of that, a little unfocused. They want to make plays so badly that they lose focus. Our offensive line is way better then they are playing and i think that has a lot to do with just not getting to hit enough people. it'll straighten itself out in the season.
     
  11. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    What I see on our screen passes is a lot of what I see on our runs. No-one is getting into space and blocking at the second level. What's worse than that is when no-one even gets passed the first level pulling and there are 4 offensive lineman on the runningbacks hip when he catches the ball.

    The deep pass would be nice, we don't even have to complete them to open up a defense. Just Ginn getting behind the coverage and being overthrown a bit would do wonders.
     
  12. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    While Im not sure we are seeing everything we will see during the regular season....I do think Coach has a valid point.

    Last year we were a dink and dunk team, I think some of that was because of our personel. Some of that was because of Chad Pennington. Some of that was because of protection purposes, etc.

    Part of me does wonder if there is some degree of a "opening" up of the offense that quite obviously the Coaching Staff has kept under wraps...but..I do remember our practices and reading Omar talking about how often we would be going deep at times.

    I think some of Sun Tzu's Art of War applies to a degree here. Teams we play in the regular season, really arent quite sure how to game plan against us. Can they realisticly use last seasons game tape, and try and draw corollary there? Possibly, but hear me out on this. We have a very good defense (despite what we saw last night)...a better defense than any defense we will be facing this pre season....so...why not practice all of your new offensive schemes against a very stout defense of our own....and never have to show your cards to any other team. This allows us to game plan from a position of strength almost every time this season, because teams truly have no idea what to game plan us with...especially at the beginning. No other team we will be facing, will be rolling out anything new on offense...they have established offensive schemes that are tried and true.

    I believe our protection and running game will be better this season....I think you will see more deep passes, especially off of the play action similar to what we saw last night from Chad Pennington to Hartline.

    I would be careful trying to get a glimpse of what our team will be doing, or how they are actually doing during preseason...because I know our front office will use every tactic thats legal to give us a competitive advantage. False information will be used a ton.


    All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
    - Sun Tzu, the Art of War


    Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.
    - Sun Tzu


    I believe our front office applies these principles with their thinking. Hence the change to the Wild Cat...this is not your garden variety football front office.
     
  13. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I agree which is why I mentioned the timing with the original post. I take issue with many things on this offense but "who we are" is not changing. I never thought it was going to change for the entire offseason.

    * Chad Pennington is not going to turn the ball over. When he does we will most assuredly lose.

    * We have to remain one of the lowest penalized team in the league.

    * We have a little more depth to sustain us through injury.

    * A running game must be established. If not the best we can hope for is one and done in the playoffs.

    * Wildcat is being utilized just as it was last year. It is a gimmick to get this team through the games that they just should not win because they cannot establish a running game. They believe in Pat White as a backup quarterback as a result of his passing ability.

    * This leopard has not changed it's stripes. From the Giants, to the Patriots, to the Jets, to the Cowboys, to the Dolphins..... We are a run based, play action offense.


    So as you can see I do not disagree that we have significant third and long issues. We will have success on 3 and 6 (or more) about as often as we did last year. The key for this team is not to be placed in that situation more often than not. We will only get over that hurdle from an established running game.
     
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  14. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    LOL? Right.. He affirmed that they were still running some of the old Bucs Defensive zones. They are still a 2 Deep Defense, that much is clear from the game. One thing is for sure, they got away with holding and pushing all night and didn't get hit with half the calls they should have.
     
  15. GRT8

    GRT8 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    This is a very good observation and if you think things will change in the regular season, you would be mistaken. It is a ball control offense and not a wide open offense. The OC has a history of being very boring. The bigger plays will come, but very infrequently. The receiving core is going to need to identify the standout wr's and use them consistently to develop the timing and will take more shots probably after week 4-5. Bottom line is Penny can't push the ball downfield regularly, not matter what stat you try to manipulate and the offense isn't designed to take it deep.
     
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  16. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    I think so too!
     
  17. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Todays post game report:

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...hins-offense-082809,0,3106905.story?track=rss

    The starting offense was 1 for 6 on third-down conversions with Pennington under center, including three failures to convert third downs of three yards or less.

    "You've really got to focus in when you get those third and 2 or 3s," Pennington said. "You've got to hit those. Those keep drives going. With the third and longs, if you can get one, great. You're just trying to avoid a disaster, whether it's an interception or a sack or something crazy.

    "But when it's third and manageable like that, third and medium and third and short, we've got to connect on those to keep drives going. We were doing a good job of that the first two weeks, but we didn't do such a good job of it this week. We've got to go back and look at it and see why and fix it." Sparano also was troubled by the third-down difficulties on both sides of the ball.

    "Our defense was on the field too long and our offense wasn't on the field long enough," Sparano said.
     
  18. finserg

    finserg Well-Known Member

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    i agree i hope we keep him
     
  19. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good questions to ask Mike, and it has been kind of answered in the Premium Forum...

    For the most part all NFL QBs (even the ones with the rocket arm) with a passing attack throw his majority (60-70%) of his passes within 10 yds of the LOS...

    believe it or not...
     
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  20. socalkid

    socalkid New Member

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    imo, i think this teams main problem is the ultra safe coaching staff, the way too gimmicky plays on offense (henning trying to look smart) and the playing to not lose defense(never blitzing).

    Every set of downs its pass rush pass, everybody knows this and they all play accordingly, same as the goal line offense fade run fade, and on every 3rd down above 5 yards penning throws it under the marker and lets his receiver get destroyed trying to get it or get nothing at all pennington really doesnt risk anything, you see the other teams quarterbacks always converting 3rd and 20s on us because they try, if its above 5 yds on us we or im realy thinking its chad just gives up. It feels like we are playing 2 down offense every time.

    henning always tries to make himself look smart with some trick play(usually non wildcat) in the most stupid situations, i cant count how many times we were on 1st and goal on the one and it was fade run fade, or play actions even, then 3 points. The simple answer is to run it then but henning never takes the simple answer because it doesnt make him look smart, every time we start using conventional running to drive we start driving a lot but then when they cant stop the run for the life of them, henning gets smart and throws 3 straight play actions because its his ego> this team.

    The defense just always seems to be rushing 4 or 3 imo letting bad quarterbacks tear us up all day, when we blitzed last year we dominated good teams and when we played it safe we got owned by bad teams. Barely pulling out games against the seahawks chiefs and raiders if i remember correctly.

    JMO from what i saw last year and it seems to be the same this year except we have more talent now. IMO it is the coaches playcalling that is holding us back, i would fire henning and promote lee and tell pasq to blitz a lot more. These coaches are good at discipling the players but as usual never discipline themselves.
     
  21. socalkid

    socalkid New Member

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    i just wanted to add a prime example of this is not letting ginn return, imo it is just so 2 yrs from when they start they are a competitive team because they made it that way , not the players and certainly not the players that were there before them, im just saying if we werent winning every game by one point and by a lot more if we actually used our talent the coaches wouldnt look so smart and people would see as we know that we have a lot of talent its just not used right when the most blatant one in ginn, he like hester is a prime returner in this league right now i cant remember the last time bess got 5 yards on a return, bess is a good receiver but not returner, ginn is a great returner.

    As much as i hate saying it it seems the coaches want to look smart rather then this team winning because they are ego freaks, i see the same thing in boston every year with the coaches ruining games /seasons just to try and look smart with francona pulling the pitcher and losing the game countless times and epstein trading for some fancy new player instead of signing /keeping the ones we have.

    We lost damon pedro manny millar mueller and many others only because theo wants to look smart, i hate the coaches/management on the redsox but i love the players. It just seems that way with every sports team now days. No loyalty only about the coaches/gms egos.

    Its pretty funny how coaches can scream at the players all day but never fix their bs. Ie sparano with ginn and not telling henning to run the ball and pasq to blitz. I like sparano but it seems he is out for himself or to keep his job rather then fixing the problems we have with the coaches, he will yell at the players all day but if it takes for him to yell at henning or pasq he wont because parcells put them there and he doesnt want to lose his job.
     
  22. socalkid

    socalkid New Member

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    just wanna say that the ginn situation is the exact situation as porter before they got here, they didnt use him right so he sucked, once they start using ginn right he will dominate too.

    I remember people saying porter was done and when he dominated last year they were no where to be found. many people are saying the same thing about ginn, what a joke, a lot of the same people said wes wasnt that great, yeah, ok.

    This is the reason many of our castoffs go on to do great elsewhere, people always blame the players and never the coaches even when it is blatantly obvious the coaches fault, aka porter, aka wes, aka ginn.

    The coaches all preach team but its very ironic they are usually more about themselves then anything or anybody else.
     
  23. GRT8

    GRT8 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    the idea is not to just pass under 10 yards, its being able to have the ability to spread the field and the posing threat......if not, those 3rd down conversions become more difficult.
     
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  24. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Socalkid, the RedSox did get another championship after letting all those players go, so I don't know why you're complaining.
     
  25. Fin Fan In Cali

    Fin Fan In Cali Dolphin fan since 1970 Luxury Box

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    Yes and your running game will never get off the ground brother.:wink2: Good to see you around again.:yes:
     
  26. socalkid

    socalkid New Member

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    well, first of all fact isn't complaining, second, if they kept that core group around they would have won many championships, not two 3 years apart, that team had all the makes of a dynasty. Letting those players go and many others in the organization just so theo could get his rocks off cost us many wins/titles. That 2004 team was probably the best team in sports history along with the perfect dolphins.

    Hanley ramirez is also another name that comes to mind.

    If you have a chance to repeat you dont get your ego off you keep the players that got you there. It's theos way or no way in boston.
     
  27. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't want to turn this into a baseball thread, so I'm just going to leave one last comment then be done with this conversation.

    Theo Epstein has done a terrific job with the Red Sox. Right now, you have team that can be a dynasty. The 04 team had no chance of being a dynasty. Younger players that are just as talented and proven that they can win a WS. How can you be mad at Theo?

    If you want to continue discussing this subject, PM me.
     
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  28. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    the offensive line has to play well
    that is the real problem with the offense:yes:
    as go the Orca-5, so goes our season

    I believe all they need is a few more games
    I predicted in earlier posts they would be
    in full stride by game four of the regular season

    still think the time table is about right
    a good OL requires synchronization:
    they have to think & move as one

    the pieces are in place but the programming takes time
     
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  29. socalkid

    socalkid New Member

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    I dont need to pm you, theo has done a horrible job since coming in, i could go move by move but i wont, all the talent was there before he got there and in no way is any team since 2004 close to 2004, the talent on that team was insane.

    nomar, cabrera, ramirez, ramirez, pedro, damon, millar, mueller just to name a few that theo has dumped that inclues 2 hofers.
     
  30. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    Giving this thread 1 star, I'll let the participants "guess" why.
     
  31. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Ahh, the free boards! It's always a "guess" here isn't it.
     
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  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    DMike, isn't the lack of utilization of Ted Ginn another factor?

    TG has been wide open all preseason, but has caught maybe 4 passes?

    And to be honest, Pennington is not his usual efficient self, he also missed TG in the endzone.
     
  33. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Well isn't that a head scratcher? All the camp talk was how great Ginn looks, so then we get a chance to compete in preseason games, and we make little effort to get him the ball.

    Now thats all fine and good, but remember our HC believes you "practice winning"...

    So why are we "practicing winning" with our hands tied. We don't throw deep, can't run screen and show little improvement on 3rd downs, something we all know Sparano is well spoken on as a desired area of change.

    And no Wildcat.
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Coaches talk a bunch of crap sometimes DMike...


    Err...

    Scratch that...:lol:



    Hartline caught a 50yd pass, he caught a penalty called back 25 yd + pass.

    Agree about the screens though, the oline has terrible timing and they look atrocious.

    And keep in mind, Ronnie and Ricky were sitting much longer than they ever would in a game, they each had very few touches, ditto Teddy G.

    Now it should be pointed out that Pennington simply was not putting the balls were they needed to be, if anyone has an issue, it's Penny.

    The WC...keep in mind even the one to Cobbs Sparano knew exactly how many times they ran that particular play last season, so chances are good we will not see anything new until the season begins.

    But I am surprised they have not let Pat White run a couple of WC plays.
     
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  35. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    A little post game from Sparano:

    “Never as good (as you think), never as bad,” Sparano said when asked if the viewing was as bad as he might have expected. “That sounds like a copout answer, but it’s not. You’re watching and evaluating as many guys that played - 60, 65 guys - and you see some individual performances that were good and some that weren’t so good.

    “What we did in Tampa Bay certainly was not a game plan; it was the same stuff we’ve been running for a couple weeks. We sure didn’t execute it the way we wanted to.”
     
  36. Gitrdone

    Gitrdone New Member

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    I think he has been avoided in preseason on purpose, just for the fact they know what he brings. They want to see what others can do, so having him on the field at the same time can help. Our offense so far in preseason has just looked like it was focusing on certain things each game. Game one has some nice passing, with a run game between the tackles that went nowhere. Second game was less passing with a run game that did move the ball. The 3rd game was as vanilla as it can be in the first half. Though it did look like the ball was being forced to Hartline for a reason.
     
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  37. LoungeRat

    LoungeRat New Member

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    Come on. It's preseason. They don't game plan for this. The goal is evaluation. They showed the other teams the Wildcat is still a part of the offense. Do you really expect them to show the other teams anything new?
     
  38. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    You don't have to be good at everything in order to win in this league, and trying to will cause you to dissipate your efforts and become mediocre at everything.

    Problems with the screen game IMO aren't big cheese. It would be nice to be better but not being good at running screens isn't going to change our win total as long as we can make it up elsewhere such as running power sweeps.

    The deep game is more problematic. I saw a lot of plays last year where Ted Ginn opened up opportunities for other players, but sooner or later he has to get the deep ball in his hands or people aren't going to respect him as a decoy. The catches he made for TDs against the Jets and Seattle show he's got the hands as well as the speed to make something special happen given the opportunities.

    For me the offensive schemes are a minor concern. What has me excreting blue bricks is our tackling on defense.
     
  39. dolfan7171

    dolfan7171 Well-Known Member

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    I am just listening to you to talk this out and I am just curious since there is so many types of offenses out there, in your opinion, what would be a successful offense to have? Do you think we will see anything like that this year?

    Thoughts?
     
  40. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, thank you, thank you. Long passing in the NFL is much rarer than fans realize. Even so, Pennington is particularly reluctant to do it. It's not so much that he can't -- there are other throws that require more oomph than the bomb -- but he hates low-percentage throws.
     

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