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Serious problem with our Offensive scheme

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by DOLFANMIKE, Aug 28, 2009.

  1. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    offensive line must improve for the game to move forward
     
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  2. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    O ye of little faith. Do you really think that Sparano has shown the plays? The routes? The blocking schemes? The stunts? The coverage schemes? The blitzes? You are talking the most devious little shrimp scampi in NFL coaching circles here.
     
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  3. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    I don't think the problem is our system. Most pro teams are like us and they run everything at some point. Mutiple set offense.

    I think the problem is more based on us not attacking the entire field.

    Penny is the master of the dink and dunk. We're lucky to have him. His numbers last year were unreal and the fact that he is so good at that style of play, and that he doesn't make many mistakes, could very well be a part of why we don't do other things much or very effectively. However, over time having such strong tendencies allows quality coaches to determine what parts of the game you are neglecting and focus their attention on the things you overuse.

    Wildcat success clouds the Base issue, because it changes the statistical data on our runs and passes
    If you take out our long runs from the Wildcat, and you take out the long passes from the Wildcat (Cobbs, etc), then take out our Flee Flicker to Ginn (Trick Play) what do we have left in terms of our rushing attack and our passing game? Our offensive stats aren't nearly as impressive if you take out a trick play or two and the Wildcat from last season. They looked about like what we've seen during our first three preseason games this year.

    The Wildcat has success because it breaks all of our tendencies and leaves the defense in the unfamiliar or unpredictable. The same goes for trick stuff like the Flee Flicker. But our base has brought defenses up in our grill with aggressive run reads and teams are not defending the whole field against us. That's bad offensive football if we allow teams to get away with that. That's exactly what a problem with a scheme is. One teams X's and O's are creating problems for anothers teams X's and O's by formation, reads, and or excecution.

    When we line up over and over and struggle with the same issues, thats a problem with scheme and/or personel. I've watched the games just like you all have, and I really dont have much issue with our players in general. We clearly are being played in a small box that isn't respecting the entire field. Until we figure out ways to effectively play the whole field (aka stretch the field) we aren't going to improve our run game. We aren't so much better than everyone else that we can line up and block 8 with 7 or block 9 with 8. We'd likely have a simliar problem even if the defense was only playing 7 against our 7 blockers against the run, because the run reads are so aggressive that our blockers and runners don't have much of a chance. The defenses have figured out that they can make that run first read and still make it into that close by medium curl to flat zone with little to no problem. That is why we are getting stuffed and will continue to struggle rushing the football and on 3rd downs in general.

    In a nutshell, I see our Base offensive problem as very similar to our Wildcat problem when Ronnie is running the show. Teams don't fear the pass from Ronnie so they crowd the box in Ronniecat. It's pretty well documented that our players and staff understand that concept. I think the same is part of our problem in our base. We only throw certain types of passes. We can throw great medium and short curl to flats. We can throw the quick hitting bubble screens to the slot or hitch screen to the WR. We are very effective at all this type stuff. We in fact may be one of the best teams in the league at it. So what are teams going to focus on defending when they play us? They focus on stopping the things we are good at. A good coach always tries to take away the other teams greatest strengths.

    But any play action screen that takes some time to develop we look horrible, and we rarely throw the seams or deep from our base sets. Teams have identified the base limitations (whether by design or player talent - Penny's arm) and so they develop reads and zones that allow them to come up screaming against the run or defend the medium curl to flat routes in a small box. Teams know that even if they can't cover us one on one on the deep routes we will likely underthrow the route anyhow (making it less of a threat) or that we won't throw it to begin with making it no threat.

    IMO this is where the problem comes that makes our 3rd down problem and rushing the ball problems. Teams are doing to us exactly what we want to do to them in our Quarters scheme on defense.

    I think understanding all that is where to dig in order to see what our problems are on 3rd down and with our scoring threat in general.

    Hopfully our new Wildcat, Wildpat, or other base efforts will fix our problems here. But it's not tough at all to identify the fact that we are seeing very aggressive defenses aimed at defending our middle to short range passes and running attack. Perhaps we'll see more 3-4 WR sets, or the spread offense that we saw Pat White run some plays out of during preseason? There are many ways to get a defense out of playing a short field and boxing us up on a short field. Stretching the field is not just about throwing a deep pass, it's about using formations and motion that forces the defense to respect all parts of the field. Throwing the ball effectively down the field each game would be a great start to letting defenses know they arent going to box us up. Play Action (which we have seen in preseason) is another way to make their aggressive run reads hurt them defending us. I think the key for us will be finding ways to run our base from a variety of looks. Last season, we had some of our greatest offensive success when we came out in new looks by formation running some of the same plays that we run all the time (Counters, Blasts, etc). We don't have to be predictable just because we are a ground and short pass based offense.
     
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  4. phinnhedd

    phinnhedd Reality.

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    Mike, like you I want to see more production on 3rd down situations... How much would you put the inefficiency on 3rd down conversions on Pennington's back? To me I've seen him checkdown more often than not and usually it's a few yards shy of getting the first down. That to me is really frustrating. Sometimes I think making the completion is more important than trying to extend the drive to him.

    Have you seen anything like this or am I just making something out of nothing?
     
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  5. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    ive seen the same thing out of him but he's always been llike that. it might be out of design as much as him though. he may simply refuse to take any chances and punt rather than risk turning it over
     
  6. phinnhedd

    phinnhedd Reality.

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    I guess that's what separates risk-taking qb's to guys like Pennington. I'm glad he's our qb, yet I feel like if he would just take a risk in some of those situations that he'd have more success. On the flip-side, there's a better chance that he may throw an interception. Maybe him injuring his shoulder took some of that confidence away at some point in his career (or not maybe he has always been that way, never followed him in NY), but with his arm strength improved this offseason I'm hoping to see some zippy passes on 3rd down this season, and thus extending drives and winning the time of possession battles.
     
  7. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    I think part of his high efficiency is that he takes what they give him. He doesn't force things often and avoids throwing places that may be moderately defended and instead goes to the wide open route that gets tackled short of the first down. That could be a problem with our skill guys not breaking tackles or making the play in another way.

    To me, the problem is we don't have many routes that even challenge parts of the field. I'd like to see more drags, crossing routes, picks, and most of all seam routes to the TE or slot. Some more deep routes on post, skinny post, and fade would compliment too.
     
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  8. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Right, I think our coaches want that, and in fact may even demand it.
     
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  9. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    should get another look on Thursday, since the game got wet & bogged down against the Bucks
    everything is fixable
     
  10. dolfan7171

    dolfan7171 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for clearing that up for me. I would like to see the Dolphins "stretch the field" this year. I have a feeling that is what we are going to be doing. We were very limited in what we did this preseason. I think it was on purpose so that all you mentioned and I highlighted will be done this year to shock everyone. You know to give Miami an edge against its opponents this year.
     
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  11. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Jim Mandich's take: 'The Dolphins' passing game concerns me'
    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-jim-mandich-s090109,0,3131903.story

    "The Miami Dolphins are 3-0 in the preseason, but it doesn't feel like it.

    I mean the questions and concerns coming into the season are still there. The passing game concerns me. Is the passing game reliable?

    It is 3rd-and-9 -- are you confident that you are going to convert?

    I did see two powerful throws from Chad Pennington against Tampa -- one to Brian Hartline and the touchdown to Anthony Fasano. However I have not seen the 3rd-and-10, drop-back, read-it, plant-that-back-foot, read-the-coverage and hit-his-man throw.

    Also I have not seen them go vertical on a designed play.

    Ted Ginn Jr. is solid on one side, but Greg Camarillo, Davone Bess, and Brian Hartline all could start opposite Ginn on opening day. All three will play against New Orleans."
     
  12. dolfan7171

    dolfan7171 Well-Known Member

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    I think it will improve. I think Sparano wants to focus on fundamentals in the preseason and do the big play stuff in the regular season.
     
  13. phinnhedd

    phinnhedd Reality.

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    It's amazing we're winning these preseason games at all. Looking back the only game we score more than 12 points was @ Carolina where we scored 27 pts, which seems like an anomaly so far.

    Jacksonville 12-9
    Carolina 27-17
    Tampa Bay 10-6
    New Orleans 10-7

    Seems like our defense is winning these games for us not giving up much in the preseason, hopefully that follows suit into the regular season. On the offensive side of the ball I don't think we're going to win many games scoring only 10 points having the toughest schedule in the league. I seriously hope this is just because it's preseason and we're not really opening up our offense.

    Last night I was really frustrated while Henne was in there because we really haven't seen them showcase his skills and then he hit Ginn with a pass that looked like it was a laser beam. That kind of pacified me for a bit, then back to the check off passes and short hitches. Anyone else feel the same thing?
     
  14. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    If your team does the same thing over and over again how can one expect different results.We are continuing to do exactly what we did last year on offense but this year we will be facing a more difficult schedule...
    Why hasn't our offense evolved...it seems like mgmt wants to make Henne into a carbon copy of Pennington...not sure how thats going to work in the long term but in the short term I have my doubts.

    Running between the tackles with our multi-million dollar line is non existent.The use of Ted Ginn is almost non existent.Long passes used to keep the defense honest is just like last year almost non-existent...This team is going to have major problems this season facing good defenses that stack the line just as Baltimore did to us in the playoffs.

    The only salvation might be the wildcat as it protected our poor offensive line last season but honestly all the money invested in this offensive line I expected much more...Lets see what the regular season brings in the way of success for our offense
     
  15. phinnhedd

    phinnhedd Reality.

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    We'll see against Atlanta, I guess as long as we win the details don't matter. Gonna be interesting.
     
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  16. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    our offense will be as good as the offensive line allows it to be
    which I believe will be excellent.
    don't see problems in the offense.
    I see a dynamic & diversified approach to the game that fits the talent we dispose
    respectfully disagree. there is no problem with the offense.
    by game four the Orca-5 will be dominate & everthing will open up.
     
  17. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    OK. How do you feel now after Week 1. We had the same problems I mentioned during the entire preseason, and many games last season, espcially in our losses.

    We don't attack the whole field. We are poor on screens and almost never attempt medium to deep routes in our base offense. Our rushing attack is overwhelmed because defenses are aggressive on their run reads and dropping (flooding) into short to medium drops in coverage.

    Today was the exact thing I have been talking about.

    Where were all of our adjustments that we've been "saving" for the regular season? We were pathetic today on Offense. I think we are better than what we saw today.
     
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  18. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    How does the regular season look now regarding your observations in preseason?
     
  19. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    OK. Regular season now. Will we draw our guns anytime soon? What do you think after seeing the same thing week 1?
     
  20. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Do you still feel as if our scheme is in good order and that my notion that we have problems is half baked after watching the game week 1? Now that the regular season is here we definately are not in "televised practice mode" and it's all about winning at this point.


    Now I do think our players are struggling, but I also see some things going on as a coach that clearly impact our ability to perform on the field, which I have pointed out as schematic in nature. We still are not attacking the enitre field effectively and in some ways we are not attacking it at all. It's regular season. We should be operating more effectively by now. I see the exact same problem we had in preseason and many games last season on offense.
     
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  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    DMike...you?

    Teams can look great or poor on opening day, we looked poor, but at least give it 3 games before making prognostications...
     
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  22. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Wow, you really are thrilled to be "right" aren't you? Is it fun rubbing in these kind of predictions in the face of other fans after a tough loss? :pity:
     
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  23. Bofin

    Bofin Member

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    i agree dolfanmike. today we did not attack down the field at all. i think your observations are pretty much spot on. i have no football background by the way. i did see penny look down the field 3 or 4 times in the first half so i think we had some plays called that would help with the problems you identified and thats a step in the right direction. he never threw the ball though and was under some pressure in all of those plays. on the tv footage i could not see what was happening down field, i was saying to myself that those recievers had best be WELL covered down the field. when i say well covered i mean really bloody not open cause sometimes you got to let your playmakers make a play. we need to back teams out of the box and have to take more risk with throwing some of the routes you mentioned in order to do it. pretty frustrating opening game. if you or others have film i would really like to know what penny saw on those plays.
     
  24. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    I think by game four we should be @ least treading water
    however
    after a terrible opener
    it looks like a long, long swim to that distant shore
    good thing we're Dolphins:up:
     
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  25. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    I think Mike may deserve a bit more credit than that.

    I'm not picking on you here, cause I know you're a good guy. I know today sucks ball sack but Mike isn't being nasty to anyone that he has replied to.
     
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  26. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I'm sorry, but IMHO coming into your own thread and making 4 consecutive posts after a tough loss basically in not so many words telling fans they were wrong for being optimistic about our offense is tacky and completely unnecessary.
     
  27. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    it's the offensive line
    look to game four for redemption
    these things take time to put together
    it's a matter of synchronization & communication
    it takes a few games for an offensive line to gel
     
  28. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I understand you frustration, but I don't think Mike was trying to piss anyone off. He may have been in the "I'm pissed off at this team, I told everyone and no one believed me" mood. Which is different from the I told you so.

    I think we are all frustrated and quite pissed today.
     
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  29. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    Umm they are paid top 5 money. We won the division last year what makes you think were going to sit around and keep Pennington in to wait for the Oline to "gel"?

    Its the playcalling. The line gave enough time for pennington he just made poor decisions and throws.
     
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  30. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    So, in the preseason he was right for being wrong, but now he's wrong for being right?

    DMike has every reason to say I told you so; in a detailed and informed way he pointed out what he saw wrong that was not being addressed. As usual the Pollyannas came out in droves to pound him.

    Now it turns out he was EXACTLY right - and he is damn well entitled to say "I told you."
     
  31. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    our offensive line was beaten into the ground, totally defeated in the trenches
    I think it was as simple as that
    however
    everyone has an opinion & your opinion is valid as the next
    maybe you're right

    but I really don't think so
     
  32. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    It doesn't matter who is wrong or right. IMO, there's a time and place. And if the first thing that comes to mind after a tough loss is to come in and tell fellow fans who are obviously stinging after a tough loss "I told you so" not once, but 4 consecutive times, then that's a **** move IMO.

    If some of you want to give others a free pass for being obnoxious then be my guest. Can't help but notice it's getting a little cliquey around here lately.
     
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  33. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    In case you missed it, we have freakin' Peyton Manning up next and Phillip Rivers on deck. Two teams capable of punishing an opponent with a lethargic offense.

    They better turn it around, and quickly, or this season can be over in the blink of an eye.
     
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  34. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Offensively we left off where we did vs Baltimore last year....Penny in the pocket staring down field and not seeing many windows his arm can fit the ball into. IMO, we ask too much of him..


    As Mike said in his original post, we need more wildcat. Personally I want to see a lot more.....we should have ran it 3 times as much today. Quit "tinkering" with it and open it up. It's a home run type of offense, if we're going to commit to it then commit to it and run the amount of plays necessary for it to be worth our effort.

    And if we're going to keep riding Penny to as many wins as possible and keep Henne on ice, then he's gonna need some help, just like last year....more wildcat;]
     
  35. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'm more inclined to give everyone a free pass today considering what we witnessed considering the expectations for this season. You and Mike included.
     
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  36. Brown42000

    Brown42000 Chillin

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    The defense will be top 10 this season but the offense must get better from the play calling to the blocking.
     
  37. RBrown23

    RBrown23 Thanks GISH

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    I feel that we should have ran more of the basic wildcat package. We did once i recall, and Ronnie got a 5 yard gain off of it and thats a good gain. We should have ran it more til ATL stopped it.
     
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  38. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    today half the teams in the NFL are losers
    we're in good company
    (just can't make a habit of it)
    I think we need four games to get our feet on the ground offensively
    would be a good thing to win @ least two of the four
     
  39. Fin Fan In Cali

    Fin Fan In Cali Dolphin fan since 1970 Luxury Box

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    I think Ricky was having a better day running the ball, and then we got away from that. I think we tried to force things today, and we never got into a flow.
     
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  40. Pro-X

    Pro-X End Game Club Member

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    Exactly Ricky was running very good. I dont understand why we had to go to trick plays, we got our players back, we have a good O-line. With our backs we should have pounded the ball and then setup play action passes.
     
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