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Rough start

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Sidsstillhere, Sep 13, 2009.

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  1. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    Okay.
    So what you are saying is that Clady better because he is 1.5 sack better (less?) While the gap in their run blocking os big.
     
  2. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    A thought provoking post by Sid, but lets maintain our sanity and civility. Jake Long just had his worst game as a pro. But let's not start with the "mistake" or "shoulda" talk. There's a lot of football left in this season. Jay Cutler and Aaron Rogers are lulling me to sleep for crying out loud. Who saw that coming?
     
  3. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    All I was saying (disputing) was that Clady can't hold Jake's jock strap.

    Like any good defense attorney, all I have to do is introduce reasonable doubt. :lol: OT: Jake gave up 1.5 more sacks today than Clady has overall to this point.

    I don't how big the gap is in run blocking, but I don't imagine it's as big as some make it out to be. Clady is arguably the best pass blocker in the league though.

    I guess it's sort of like choosing between Jake Long or Richmond Webb.

    And Cutler just threw another pick to end the game. :lol:
     
  4. siciliansith

    siciliansith Resident Deviant

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    Pretty much right on, but take exception on two points.

    1. On the issue of who is the better pick Long or Ryan? I cant see how we can get down on Long so fast after a great rookie season that took him to the probowl. Sure Ryan did amazing but he had Turner and the line to help him last year. Long will become the leader of our line for yrs to come. Sure he's had a few bad plays, but Abrahams is a beast and it was only 3 plays (you still shouldn't get pancaked though)

    Im not satisfied with paying all that money to a QB were the risks are expotentially increased, IMO why the trifecta passed on him. Guess in hindsight anyone can be right all the time.


    2. LMAO - while we may have our Pennington haters and Henne lovers, we are Phin fans and I TAKE EXCEPTION TO YOU CALLING EVEN ONE DOLFAN MORONIC!
     
  5. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    Didin't see that.
    Yes, I agree, THAT statement, is silly.
    So that makes Long's selection at #1st overall wrong?
    Especially considering that TODAY Clady was going up vs Cincinati's pass rush, who ranked 30th last year, while Jake was going up against arguably the best pure pass rusher in the game today.
    The way i see it, Jake is the better overall.
    Sure, while he gave up 1.5 more, Jake run blocking ability is worth more than 1.5 sacks.

    So in your eyes, Clady established himself as a Richmond Webb?

    Yeah, that was great.
    Awesome start to your tenure with the Bear, Jay :up:
     
  6. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    I still think trenches are more important. Knowing what we know now I'd still pick Clady over Ryan.

    Because here's the way I look at it.

    A QB can pass the ball and he can hand the ball off. The quarterback is obviously more instrumental to the pass game.

    A LT is instrumental in both pass protection and run protection. Thus more responsibility, thus more worthy of a high pick.

    Not every good QB in the league is a first round draft pick. Tom Brady is a prime example. I know this example works with linemen as well.. I'm just saying I'd take the linemen in the first round because if you hit on them you can afford to take an average QB and have a decent run game and if your defense is any good you can win games that way.

    It's potato potahto. I think too much emphasis is put on "franchise" QBs.

    Denver's record is the same as Chicago's.

    Orton was picked in the fourth round. Cutler was picked in the first.

    Does Orton have the numbers that Cutler does? Certainly not. But at this moment both teams are 1-0 and Jay Cutler wasn't enough of a move for the Bears in the offseason they also grabbed all pro Orlando Pace to shore up their LT spot.
     
  7. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Are we REALLY dong this regarding Jake Long?

    Really?

    He was a mistake?

    Every draft can be redone in hindsight and everyone can look like a genius in hindsight. The ONLY people who have the right to say that "taking Jake Long was a mistake" is anyone who can PROVE in writing that they thought that Joe Flacco or Matt Ryan would turn into franchise quarterbacks AND chose them in their mocks.

    The only guy in the mainstream that I know that was saying Matt Ryan was the end all be all was Mike Mayock....and that was because Mayock knew the kid.

    Gimme a break. Long makes the Pro Bowl as a rookie at a very tough position and pretty much sets us at one of the toughest positions to fill in the sport and "he's a mistake" after one bad week. Hell, I don't even think he had that bad a week, he had a couple of bad plays against one of the best pass rushers in football.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2009
  8. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    LOL "Dong"
     
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  9. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    Kinda hard to scare an opposing secondary with dink and dunk passes.
     
  10. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    I've explained multiple times in this thread that I'm not down on it and that it wasn't 'wrong'. Again, I was simply replying to the 'jockstrap' comment. But given what we know now (i.e. revisionist history), Ryan would have been the pick.

    Incidentally, Clady shutout Abraham last year.

    Long has given up 4.5 sacks I believe. I'm not sure the exact number. Denver had 129 more pass attempts as well. Half a sack in 620 pass attempts is insane.

    They face a lot of the same teams this year. We'll see how it goes.

    Regarding run blocking ability, Football Outsiders says Denver was #1 running to left end last season and #5 running to left tackle. Perhaps the discrepancy isn't what it's made out to be?

    The analogy being one guy excels in pass blocking, the other as a run blocker.
     
  11. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    You dont bring in Parcells to build you an offense. You bring him in to build you Super Bowl caliber defense. Parcells has brought in Langford, Merling, Vontae and Sean Smith in 2 years. Next year we'll get two new linebackers and we'll have a Ravens/ Steelers type of defense.

    Offensively, Parcells leaves much to be desired but he's not incompetent. He has the typical defensive mindset when it comes to offense...control the clock and don't turn the ball over. Myself and a few other on here said that Clady would be a better left tackle but Parcells values run blocking higher than most and in Long he saw a young Jumbo Elliott. Jumbo was never considered to be the best but he was top ten and had the ability to physically punish you. And thats Parcells philosophy. He wants to out physical you. He figures you may be able to keep up for 45 minutes but if he can keep the game close, he'll pull it out in the 4th quarter when you're tired and hurting from the beating you've taken. Long has to improve his pass blocking though because other wise we spent an overall first on a right tackle. Its a bad game and he has issues but I think he can improve to the point where he is top ten pass blocker and top three run blocker. Thats a good combination for what Parcells wants. As to which is more important, only and I mean only Parcells would have you believe a left tackle is as improtant as a QB. There isnt one offensive coordinator in the history of the game that would agree with that but thats the way Parcells thinks. He might have gotten lucky getting Henne however. If Henne turns into a legitimate franchise QB then the combo draft of Long and Henne will be the best use of draft picks that were available to us.

    I do think its time to start preparing Henne to start though. Its pretty obvious every team is just going to flood the short zone and force Penny to beat them deep. Penny has wrung out all he could but we really need someone to strecth the field and give our running game a chance. Not this week but we're better served long term if Henne gets some starts under his belt this year rather than waiting for next

    Penny and the line will bounce back and look better as we get into some low scoring battles but he will never take us to the Super Bowl. Henne might some day. Its better if we start getting a feel for whether he can
     
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  12. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There are 5 OL, one QB. Who's been Peyton's LT? Tarik Glenn who was pretty good. Ugoh who just lost his starting job. Is Matt Light all world? Would you take any of them over the QB they were protecting?

    Vernon Carey wasn't All-Pro but he graded out well during his one year at LT, did he not?

    So we had a serviceable LT. And no franchise QB.
     
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  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't care what kind of accolades Clady received. Ryan Clady is a better pass blocker, but he is not a run blocker. Our boy Jake Long is a beast in both aspects.
     
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ronnie Brown is better than Ricky Williams because he is just the better runningback. He showed it last year, and will show it this year.

    I already proved why Clady isn't better than Long.

    You cannot say picking Long was the wrong decision then, and you can't say it now. In a few years, sure. But it's too early.
     
  15. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You have to account for run blocking, too. Ryan Clady isn't as good as Jake Long is when it comes to run blocking. Also, the scheme in Denver benefits Clady. His QB is rolling out to the right, which is why he hardly gives up any sacks. I'm not saying he's terrible, but he's no Jake Long.
     
  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Maybe the jockstrap comment was a little overboard, but Long is still better than Clady, IMO.
     
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  17. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    I was at the game. Went with Rickyneverinhaled!!!!!!!

    The pass rush Atlanta generated wasn't great....it was just enough to get Pennington off his game and they had him under pressure all afternoon.

    OUR RECEIVERS ARE PATHETIC

    story of the game.

    They scare no one and the only bright spot was Ricky ....who ran with purpose.......

    Our secondary can cover no body

    Our kick off and punt returns are pathetic....time to get someone to return kicks

    We were in the game up until the end of the 4th at which time it finally fell apart

    Great seats on the 50 and got to see the game in a different way other then just what the camera is showing


    In ending ....if we don't revamp our receiving core we are in for a long season and this game was not Pennington's fault. he simply was under pressure all game and Atlanta dared us to pass.............and we couldn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  18. vabchbirdlover

    vabchbirdlover New Member

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    Dolphin's Defense did an admirable job against the run - Falcon's Defense, don't know what got into them, but i like it. Good luck the rest of the season...
     
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  19. dolphans1

    dolphans1 New Member

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    Our Defense failed to cause any turnovers, yeah there were those almosts, but those never count. you can't be -4 in takeaway department and expect to win. I thought Pat White had a nice arm, but missed Ted Ginn Jr.

    d-1
     
  20. dolphans1

    dolphans1 New Member

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    Wow, I don't know how you can say that, Ricky scored the only touchdown that counted and had a 5.6 yard average. Most of you know how I feel about Ronnie Brown, for someone drafted so highly, he's been a huge disappointment.

    You would think if we ran on every down, we should be able to win a lot of games, but for some reason we cannot.

    R. Brown 10 43yds 4.3 0 LG 14
    R. Williams 7 39yds 5.6 0 LG 14

    d-1




     
  21. SargeZ33

    SargeZ33 Semperfi!

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    We better get it together in a hurry. It doesnt get any easier. Next up Indy!
     
  22. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    I have accounted for run blocking: http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=831828&postcount=50

    As for rolling out, I'm sorry but I don't buy it.

    One could say that Jake Long benefits from our scheme because our QB's are told to get the ball out in under 3 seconds and Chad Pennington is known for checking down.

    Clady is unquestionably a better pass blocker. And the difference in run blocking is probably not what it's made out to be. Denver averaged over 5 ypc behind him (or so I've read).

    After yesterday's game.....and knowing Clady shutout Abraham last year....I don't know how anyone could say he's no Jake Long. IMO, he's at least Jake Long.

    That's how it currently stands IMO.
     
  23. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Jake Long was never a can't miss prospect to begin with and a deff reach at number one overall. The problems you see from him right now are nothing you won't find when looking at his scouting report from college.

    That argument about building the trenches first doesn't hold up if you draft the wrong players....

    I wouldn't be shocked to see us looking for another LT within a couple years and moving Long to RT, Carey to Guard and or waived/traded.

    Long's season last year is over rated, as is he by most Fin fans. He's a lot more average than we'd like to admit.
     
  24. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    I know it's the right of a fan to lose their **** after a bad first week, but my philosophy on Opening Day games is the same as a first date: Never get too high, never get too low.
     
  25. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Unless you get "date raped".....like yesterday
     
  26. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    I guess we gotta agree to disagree :hi5:

    It's not a rape, if you don't get a chance to say No. Just saying :shifty:
     
  27. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Meh, I agree with others that the 4 turnovers magnified areas of concern. Take those away, and it's a different game. I think most here would agree that besides those uncharacterisitc mistakes, this was very similar to an average 2008 Dolphins game.
     
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  28. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    I'm not really concerned about the performance yesterday because I KNOW that our offense is better than that. However, we have Indy and San Diego up next, two of the best teams in football, and we are flirting with disaster if we don't rebound.
     
  29. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    No position works that way.
     
  30. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Ok, I know that Jake got molested yesterday along with the rest of the Offensive Line. And I know that Clady, at this point, looks jsut as good if not better, but:

    Did I miss something? Matt Ryan was awful yesterday. Had Matt Ryan been ANY good yesterday, we would've lost at least 35-7. He consistently missed wide open receivers.

    IMO, the jury is still kind of out on him, the same way it's still kind of out on Jake. Both had solid rookie years and both followed up with garbage first games in their sophomore season.
     
  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I watched a completely different game than you did
     
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  32. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Sid, I think you missed the point about our loss...it was due to the inefficient, mistake prone OL not to Penny (not your words), the WRs not getting separation or Ronnie...the thing is that if Penny has that extra second or two the WRs find the opening. If the OL creates a seam for RB and RW to run thru, the defense opens up a a little and the passing game becomes more effective...the bottom line is that despite the ka-zillions of dollars thrown at the OL, it hasn't produced. When it does...perhaps we are thinking differently. But as the Missourians say....Show Me...
     
  33. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Really? Care to elaborate? I watched him miss 2 wide open receivers that should've been TDs. Instead, Atlanta had to settle for field goals and one was missed.

    So Matt Ryan cost his team at least 10 points yesterday.
     
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  34. SeanP

    SeanP Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    A great Offensive Line will make Pennington's job a thousand times easier. However, there are teams that play with horrible offensive lines and get it done (The Steelers being the biggest example of this, their line was folding like a house of cards all night Thursday). Whether thats a testament to the QB or not is aside from the point.

    The point I'd like to make is that you cannot single out one part of this offense that is "why we lost." We lost because of the Offense, thats it. The QB play, the OL play, the RB play, the WR play, the TE play, all of it was garbage. The only two players I saw that looked like they even brought their B game was Williams and Bess. No one else on that offense stood out at ALL.

    That's a good thing and a bad thing though. If all positions can take away something from this and ratchet their game up just a bit, it will make a huge difference to the offense as a whole. I'd much rather lose a game with players not playing the way they normally do, than watch them play hard and get smoked.

    All I'm saying is that watching/listening to that game, it sounded more like missed opportunity, and less like a mis-match. Missed opportunities you can come back from, mismatches can only be fixed in the draft/free agency.
     
  35. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

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    We should have drafted Matt Ryan but benching Chad Pennington is moronic? I'm confused. :confused2:
     
  36. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    I agree.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is not enough for me to believe that Matt Ryan had a horrible game. In one of those wide open receivers he got hit.
     
  38. Firesole

    Firesole Season Ticket Holder

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    LOL good point
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
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  39. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thanks for showing class. Stick around, please. I know you liked it here.
     
  40. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I didn't say Ronnie Brown played better than Williams in the Falcons game. I'm saying he's the better back between the two.
     

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