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Bringing Hartline into the game and up to speed.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LikeUntoGod, Sep 30, 2009.

  1. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    I'd stop using Ginn as a starter period until we proves that he can be a #1 WR. I'd use him as a retuner and I'd bring Ginn into games as the "other"type of slot WR. The kind used by the Rams years ago. He matches up against the defense's 3rd or 4th DB and tries to split the middle of the field for a quick strike touchdown.

    We cannot just think of a slot WR as a short yardage WR. A lot of teams have also had ran them long post and streaks and have the outside WRs run short patterns. And since it take a stronger arm to throw to the deep outside then deep over the middle, this makes a lot of sense. Other pluses are the shorter time a pass over the middle takes. And that it is easier to split the Safeties coming from the slot. We have not did this lately partly because we do not have a QB who can complete a longer pass.

    Just because atm other NFL are using slot WRs in one way does not mean we cannot use them in another. If you look up slot WRs in NFL history, they were often the WR with not many catches but with the longest YPC average. Again, look back the the Rams team that the Patriots cheated on to the win the Super Bowl.

    I did not know any NFL that used the Wildcat either before last year. Sometimes it helps to think out of the box and often the "box" changes over time.

    IMO, Brian Hartline needs to replace him as our starter on that side although I do not see it happening as long as Ginn is here. he has all the traits a NFL WR needs. The first trait a WR needs AFTER THE ABILITY TO GET OPEN is to catch anything that comes near him.

    Others are:
    They need great hands: He has excellent hands
    They need good speed: Great speed is not a need but he is easily the 2nd fastest WR on this team. In fact, it is not even close.

    They need great quickness: I'm not sure he has great quickness but I'm semi sure it is good enough (see the play mentioned below).
    They need great ball skills: I think he rates close to Bess and Camarillo in getting to the ball. He is also bigger and can out muscle and out jump both of them. He has caught almost everything throw to him. In preseason it was said he missed one but that is because no one watched the play more then once. Hartline was open on a 8 yard curl in but Henne instead of standing tall, fell back under pressure and ended up throwing the ball several yards to the outside. Hartline made a very quick turn and made a flat out leap for the ball but was 2 feet short.

    They need football intelligence: He was a ex-QB and Sparano said one of the things they liked about him was his very high football and basic intelligence.

    They need toughness: This is another easy one. He is known as a head hunter on special teams and he has the size to back it up.

    I see the problem with him every getting a lot of play time is Ted Ginn being here. He was being considered as the #2 WR as the season started but on that side he has to beat out the more experienced Bess and Camarillo.

    It would be replacing one sure handed WR with another one which would make little sense. Our coaching staf is not ready to bite the bullet and bench Ginn because of his "potential" as a "playmaker". And coaches are subject to pressure from fans and sitting Ginn would cause a semi up roar.

    Hartline needs reps and experience to improve and is not going to get it as long as Ginn is here.
     
    the 23rd likes this.
  2. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    If you thought defenses sat down in the box before on first and second down, wait until you remove the only threat to stretch the defense from the equation.

    You've got the arm to hit him over the top now. Why not give it a shot?

    IMO, you'd want Hartline starting opposite Ginn, not in place of him.
     
  3. 2k5

    2k5 I miss Ted Ginn Jr.

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    Agreed, plus I really doubt teams would ever put their fourth corner on Ginn just because he may not be the number one or the x or the y receiver on our depth chart.
     
  4. dolfan7171

    dolfan7171 Well-Known Member

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    Good point there. I could see Hartline opposite of Ginn.
     
  5. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Man, I would line Ginn up in the slot with tons of motion. Let's see the DB Bump him then, 9 times out of ten he totally whiffs (God, why Am I not the head coach!).
     
  6. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Oh, and Henne handpicked Hartline on his Spring tour. Best believe he'll be playing more and more.

    And Bess is simply a great receiving option anywhere in the NFL spread (3-5 receiver shotgun formation).
     
  7. RBrown23

    RBrown23 Thanks GISH

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    I would like to see the combo of Hartline/Ginn across from eachother. They played together at OSU so they have some kind of chemistry. Heck, why dont we add troy smith to the mix(sarcasm).
     
  8. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    That would be the worst move ever and will never happen.
     
    GISH likes this.
  9. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    I don't ever expect to see Ginn make the amount of plays needed from the #1 WR spot, IMO he just plays too soft. He displays too little heart in going for a pass.....however, he does get behind the defense on occasion and even if he Henne only hook up on a third of the attempts, it's still effective. You're showing the defense that you WILL air it out....

    Even incomplete long balls will have the desired effect...
     
  10. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If we stop using Ginn as a starter until he proves it, doesn't that mean you have to give the spot to another person who hasn't proven it? Ginn has proved it more than anyone else.. Until someone else steps up above him, why give them the spot?
     
    unluckyluciano likes this.
  11. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    One big reason Ginn is starting is his contract.

    Think about Az-Zahir Hakim with the 1999 Rams. At 5'10" and 180 pounds, he did not go over the middle much. But from the slot he had 36 catches for 677 yards and averaged 18.8 yards a catch with 8 TD's.

    My point is that we could bring Ginn in from time to time and run him on a long post or flag patten past the linebackers etc. Exactly the same route he ran when Pat White over threw him.

    Only one person beat Brian Hartline in the Ohio State High School High Hurdles Championship. That guy was Ted Ginn Jr.

    You don't need blazing speed to be a threat. You need enough speed and to be able to catch the ball and not fall down afterwards. Anquan Boldin ran 4.68 at the combine and he gets deep because of his great quickness. Brian Hartline had the second best 3-cone drill, 4th best 20-yard shuttle and was the best at the 60-yard shuttle so he has quickness and acceleration.
     
    Ultra likes this.
  12. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    you're stating opinions as if they are facts.
     
    GridIronKing34 and 2k5 like this.
  13. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    This.
     
  14. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    I would personally like to see what Ginn and Henne can do together. All it will take is Ginn to outrun the secondary one time and Henne hit him on the fly to make some people rethink their opinion of Ginn and maybe think he has some value to the team.
     
    GISH likes this.
  15. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Henne has probably the most familiar with Hartline ATM. So yes I would expect to see more throws his way and more plays designed around him. Still, he will most likely not take Ginn's job anytime soon.
     
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  16. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    Yea, it is almost like I read them in articles about Brian Hartline.....................:tongue2:
     
  17. 2k5

    2k5 I miss Ted Ginn Jr.

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    I want to see where you read that Ginn is starting because of his contract please.
     
  18. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    If we sat Ginn we would have 0 threat in the passing game. Even though Ginn is struggling he is still the best threat at Receiver. Do you want teams to stack the box?
     
  19. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    4.38 Ginn

    4.44/4.52 Brian Hartline (best/avg.)
    4.46/4.55 Pat White (just sayin')

    4.6 Greg Camarillo (pre-knee)
    4.66 Patrick Turner

    4.7's Davone Bess


    Route running makes up for a lot. Hartline is the best combo of route-running and speed we have. Ginn is close, being faster, but not as savvy nor as precise about execution as hartline is. Ginn is also is less physical.

    I think Hartline would also do well motioned into the slot at the last second on plays. Send Fasano into the flats and pressure the seam with Hartline.
     
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  20. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    He does have value....how much remains to be seen.

    I think Henne will help make him a better player....but due to Ginns style of play, I think his ceiling is limited. We still need more of a scoring threat, a big physical guy that will go up and get the ball as well as not falling down upon first contact.

    People should keep in mind this team lacks a real scoring threat at WR, when judging Henne's performance this year.

    That being said, I think there's a good chance that before the season is over, Henne may have all of our receivers looking better.
     
  21. Hexonx

    Hexonx Active Member

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    Funny that a Michigan guy hand picked an Ohio State guy =)
     
  22. DolfanCole

    DolfanCole Season Ticket Holder

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    I think you leave Ginn in there, but I also think Hartline should be opposite. But, more than that, we've got to go downfield more often whether we complete the pass or not. The first play against the Chargers was a deep pass to Ginn. Pennington (somehow) overthrew Ginn. But, we never threw one again. If we're using Ginn to stretch the field and to try to keep the safeties and linebackers honest by not creeping up for the run/short passes, we need to go downfield more than once a game -- even if the pass is incomplete. With Henne, I think (hope) we'll do that more.
     
  23. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    Are you kidding?

    I should of said not just contract but also where he was drafted. For instance, Jason Allen would have been released his 2nd year if we would not have to pay him millions. The only reason Wilford was given more chances was his contract.

    Teams will always give high draft picks more time then late round picks. If you have to pay a player $2 million if he plays or not, you will try harder to play him.
     
  24. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    What makes you think Ginn is a threat? No one is afraid of a WR who does not make any but easy catches. He is not "struggling", he is playing the best football of his NFL career.

    Pennington threw very soft, very catchable passes that would hit the WR right in the numbers. Henne throws harder and is a lot less accurate. I'd have our WRs with the best hands on the field most of the time.

    I never said do not use Ginn, just move him around. It reminds me of when we had Chambers and Harrington. Chambers finally complained that he was being told to line up in the exact same spot on every play in every game and every defender knew it.
     
  25. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    GinnJr is very near a bust
    if the proverbial strong arm of Henne doesn't redeem him
    he'll be history in 2010

    why is he not returning kicks?
     
  26. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    Now that Henne is QB at least now the secondary is going to respect the deeper routes. Ginn is really the only Receiver with Elite speed. I would rather we use Ginn as a HR threat while use Bess, Cam, Hartline for possession.
     

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