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So, where are we???????

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by 2socks, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That has been said of Penny for 7 years, and he just kept winning games.


    Eh, Pennington won 11 games last season, Henne has won 1, Penny has passed for what? 20,000 yds, Henne has passed for..120 or so?

    And that is the problem with projecting, one can say whatever one wished, for example "We would have been better off if Pat White had started so he could have had game experience".
     
  2. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    We are right here.
     
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  3. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    18,000ish vs 274 (which is more than CP had his 1st 2 years).
     
  4. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    what is your point???
     
  5. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    What is he going to say?

    "To be honest, my shoulder is about as fragile as fine china in a car compactor" :pointlol:

    It's his choice to stay within his comfort zone, but the shortening of that comfort zone is just the reality of his injury history. It's nice to hear Chad sound confident, but it's a bit of spin IMO. No player wants to admit that he's damaged goods or that he has limitations, I wouldn't expect him to do it anymore than I expect to hear Marino say that he never won a SB due to not having a running game.

    You need a supporting cast to look good, unfortunately Ginn was drafted for his speed and he's been stuck in an offense that doesn't have much use for a player of his abilities, until now I hope.

    I've done this before, but I'll do it again just to make the point. In his first year he was a rookie, he had Trent Green throwing the ball during the early part of the year, remember how many times we were frustrated because Green would look at Ginn wide open (or sometimes miss him completely) and then throw the ball to someone else? The only time Green ever really went deep was when he did his "take the snap, run to the sidelines and throw the ball across his body deep into a crowd of defenders" type passes, Tren did that at least once a game and usually to poor results. When he went down you had a 3rd stringer in a 2nd string position named Cleo Lemon, he had pretty good arm strength, but his accuracy and decision making was lacking. Then it came time for Beck, the kid who was told that he was going to sit on the sidelines for a year to learn, he was never properly prepared to play.Cam threw him into the starting position after the team suffered several injuries to key players, we traded Chambers and the players for the most part gave up. He was a sitting duck as Rex Hadnot and others on the OL just didn't play hard for him (Hadnot's own words).

    Last year this FO decided that they were going to make Ginn into a more well rounded receiver, so they had him working on routes and other techniques that he had never been asked to do in college or at all during his first year. To preserve him for the offense, they took him off of return duties so he could "play faster" (Sparano's words) and immediately the knee-jerk reaction crowd said "Ah ha! Bust!". Pennington, being the dink and dunker that he is, wasn't going to be the QB to take advantage of Ginn's speed, so he really wasn't able to utilize his ability to get open and stretch the defense (the reasons he was drafted). He did pretty well last year considering.

    The same thing was happening this year, now that Chad P. went down and Chad H is getting his shot, I have a feeling that the offense will open up a bit once Henne gets comfortable and we'll see an improved Ted Ginn, infact I think we'll see an improved Miami WR group and running game. If Henne can stretch the field a bit, that will open up more running room for Ronnie and Ricky. If they get going even more than they already have, teams won't know where to focus their attention on defense. :)

    So not to turn this into a Ted Ginn thread, I just thought that I should explain my thought process a bit to put my comments into context. Henne's presence won't just help Ginn (though he'll benefit the most IMO), his presence could help the whole offense by making the defense respect the deep ball capability and creating room for the other players to operate. :up:
     
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  6. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I don't have a point, just putting the real #s down because Henne was being sold short and CP was being sold high.
     
  7. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Thats my opinion atleast.
     
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  8. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    For his career, he's barely over .500 when it comes to win/loss record (43-38). So to say that he "just kept winning" is a little off. True it's a team game, no win or loss is the fault of one player, but his limitations did have a negative effect on how his teammates were able to perform. That's one of the reasons the Jets wanted to move on, it's one of the things that we told Jet fans when they would boast to us before a game, and now it's something that we've seen first-hand.
     
  9. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Playing on two garbage jets teams did not help the W/L record l2g, he did guide the Jest and Phins to the playoffs..what..4 times? 5 Times?

    But for better or worse, if one wishes to discuss a player who is 100% certain to not have any impact on the field in 2009, by all means, do continue.

    The merits or demerits of Chadwick Pennington no longer matter to the 09 Dolphins.
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Apparently, for whatever reason, perhaps Ted Ginn performance anxiety, Chad Pennington must have dirt thrown upon his time in Miami.

    I do like Henne, he is the future, but why tear down Pennington trying to build up Henne?

    :dunno:

    The Jest fans did that with Kellen Clemons, Penny was a fine NFL Qb who led us from 1-15 and a laughing stock to a playoff team, for me that is more than enough to have a positive legacy in Miami Dolphins lore.

    As for Henne, I'm rewatching the preseason games to see how Henne rolls, he looks sort of like a stronger armed version of Pennington who is not pocket scared (to be honest I thought Penny was gun shy after the Falcons game).

    Henne throws lots of outs, swing passes, comeback routes on time with really good zip on the ball.
     
  11. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    I think we need to give young henne sometime to grow. Patience is key to success for this team for this year and going into next year.
     
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  12. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Enough to keep him employed.....and I'll say he had a pretty good career. But he was always a limited QB. Which equals limited passing game

    After watching him his last 4 games, against pretty good teams, how much luster did "Pennington gives us the best chance to win", lose? This schedule gave Penny no chance to replicate last year....why not get back on the re-building track, where we belong in the first place?


    Yeah padre but which one is undefeated? :shifty:



    I wasn't "projecting" Henne as much as I was projecting the state of the team.

    Injury aside, after 0-3 and facing this schedule, how many ppl can honestly say they would have expected Penny to lead us on some kind of march to the playoffs? In what would be the last year on his contract with Henne scheduled to take over there after. It just makes more sense to move forward....

    Had Henne started game one, he'd be no worse than 1-3 right now.....and personally I think we'd have been in a better position to face the remainder of the schedule. Henne with a whole off season and 4 games as starter under his belt, sounds better than facing the Jets Monday with one start.

    But either way.....I think we're back to heading in the right direction. Which is continuing to rebuild this team into a real contender and evaluate the QB position. I'm just happy to be moving on and trying something new.
     
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  13. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Brother, the OP asked a specific question and I'm answering him. He wanted to know our thoughts on Pennington, do we want him back asap? Do we think he should lose his spot due to injury?

    Is it unfair to compare how Pennington played when talking about how Henne might change our offensive look?

    I've been very consistent in my opinion of Pennington, from the time he was with the Jets, to when I suggested that he would be the perfect mentor for Beck (before Chad had been released from the Jets) to now, he is what he is. Noone is throwing dirt on him by pointing out what he does well and what he doesn't do well.

    He played a role in that turnaround. Just like no loss is one players fault, no win is due to one player, football is a team game. We had alot of injuries and the team's moral was in the crapper under Cam, I think the return of key players from injury and a more focused and prepared team had as much to do with our turnaround as did Chad's presence.

    He does, but I'd like to see our offense expand a bit and take full advantage of our players. As alen pointed out on another site, where are the slants, drag routes and skinny posts?

    Can't argue with that, hopefully they'll continue to open up the offense as Henne becomes better adjusted to the speed of the game.
     
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  14. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Then you missed the point....it's not about any of those players you just mentioned. It's about what's best for this team.

    You make it sound as tho all I said was Penny sucks......and me saying I wanted to see us start evaluating Henne asap is hardly trying to "build him up".

    We obviously just don't agree on what Pennington was bringing to the table against good competition. IMO, it wasn't much....which is why I think a switch was due, injury or not.

    With 3/4 of the season to go, there won't be much mystery at the end of the year, we'll know what's fixed and what isn't. Which I think sounds better than trying to scratch out an 8-8 season from this schedule with Pennington and enter 2010, clueless as to where we stand at the QB position.

    And I also made it clear I thought Penny could still be helpful to us. His help with Henne may end up being his greatest contribution yet....
     
  15. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    I hope it does. I was kind of trying to touch on a little of every aspect and position, I apoligize for not making that clearer in my title. So it's okay to have a conversation about Ginn. It's part of where were at. Hopefully it's part of where were going and not where we been. We can only blame so many of Ginn's inabilities on the QB's before it gets old and ya gotta say okay now we are on QB #3 now and we are in year 3. Sometime Ginn's gotta step it up, hopefully it's sooner then later.

    If Henne can stretch the field, opposing defenses are gonna have their hands full. After we did what we did to Buffalo last week I realized we are truely a dominating ball control offense that should be at least 2-2. What we did to Manning and Co. deserves a freaking reward. A team could not play a better ball control offensive game. Koudos to Sparano & co.

    I really think we have a excellent shot at dominating the Jets this week and sending a message to the NFL.

    I just got this strange feeling that after we do the announcers and stuff will blow it off and act like the Jets defense was suspect all year........seems par for the course for us..........little respect. I believe we have a really really good team and this week we break out!!!!!!!
     
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I think you may have misread my intentions, what I was speaking about was the way Pennington was being torn down, I'll be the first to grant he had flaws, and even grant they limited the offense, however I've spent time cruising Jets boards and they gave the man -0- credit for leading them to two missed field goals from the AFC championship game with a torn rotator cuff, an injury he knew was only going to get worse if he played but he did so anyway.

    The idea that Dolphins fans would denigrate Chad Pennington and put ourselves in the same classless class as Jest fans is a point to far for me.

    I'll celebrate Penny's time in Miami and look forward to Chad Henne's growth, but to build one player up by tearing down another, successful, player is shady imho.

    Let Penny ride off into the sunset, enjoy Chad Henne.

    'nuff said.
     
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  17. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    ah I got ya. That's cool. It's too bad Pennington's career is probably coming to a end. I hope we can find a spot to give him the chance to still contribute, maybe he can mentor Henne!!!

    The guy is just a class act and I think he is good for the franchise. Having him around is a blessing.:knucks:
     
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  18. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    I don't think it's in our best interest (or that of the thread) to let this turn into a Ginn thread, anyone who has read through the others will know why. :pointlol:

    The QB's that we've had the past few years have locked us into a shortened offense, hopefully that will change. I was encouraged and very happy to see that the coaching staff had enough confidence in Henne to let him throw the ball early against the Bills. To me that says that they may envision installing an offense that suits Henne and his abilities. IMO he seemed to be holding himsel back, he seemed to be focused on playing safe, especially when a few of his passes went long and incomplete.

    Based on record and the fact that Henne is still getting his legs under him, I'll take the wait and be surprised approach. The Bills and the Jets are two very different teams, we're going to have our hands full on Monday.

    Meh, I don't really buy into the whole "the Media vs the Phins" thing, when the team struggles we should expect criticism. Do some sport writers have a bias? Sure, they all do in some way, but we received alot of good press for our turnaround last year and I can't think of any writer or sports outlet that didn't give us props for the WC. Heck, even Patriot fans complain about not getting their due from the media, I think it's just a fan thing rather than a real issue. :wink2:
     
  19. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    he no doubt has the mechanics of a good QB. Only time will tell if he is mobile, has half a brain and doesn't force throws and can read defenses.
     
  20. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    There was nothing shady about me making a case for Penny's replacement....I'm just not one of you that feel that we owed this season to him. Doesn't mean I'm trashing him like a Jets fan...
     
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  21. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    If Trent Green can get signed after his time here, CP can get signed at least as a back up by somebody.
     
  22. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    If Ron Jaworski called the wildcat a gimmick once he called it a gimmick 10 times during that game. It got so annoying I forwarded him anytime he talked or tried to give his opinion.
     
  23. larfo2224

    larfo2224 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would never want to see any player injured (with the exception of Jets), but I think it is time to see what we have with Henne. We know that Pennington will not be back this year, so we have the remainder of the season to see if Henne has what it takes. I think Pennington has the possibility of coming back, but only as a backup.
     
  24. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Hopefully he would accept the position here. Then we would be set at back up and would know for sure we were solid in that position:up:
     
  25. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Oh, Henne can run, and imho is somewhat fearless, he has a nice arm and is a leader, now it is a matter of his judgment, and his pocket feel.

    I hear this and that about our Wr, "Ginn will always be a disappointment" or the pundits saying "Greg Camarillo? He can't get open".

    I watch the games, and see Greg C still getting open consistently, I see Ted Ginn catching dummy routes like curls and comebacks, but he catches them (normally) and I think they are a good Wr corps

    Bess, believe it or not is a top 10 rated wr and Henne was finding Greg C against the Bills.

    My "Theory of the 2009 season" is Henning is going back to his Washington Redskins roots, Riggins got a ton of touches, Wr's were secondary options with the leading Wr having 800 yds or so, and the Te's are basically small offensive Tackles, 800yds for a leading Wr is what...50 yds per game?

    I think people will be surprised how much Henne plays like Pennington in play selection, only he opens more options like screens and swing passes and outs, in that sense Henne is an upgrade.
     
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  26. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Eh, we can't resign him. His time here is over.
     
  27. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    You got to admit ........it felt pretty good to pound it down Buffalo's throat and there was nothing they could do about it

    Smash mouth football....my kind of game
     
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  28. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    If Pennington were healthy he would have remained the starter, of that I'm certain, Sparano is far to cautious to just insert Henne if Penny had remained 100%.

    Would that what would have been best for the Dolphins?

    I'll be honest and say I don't know, I think you and I saw the same things from Pennington this season, however if Penny had avoided turnovers, which was one of his strengths, he more than likely would have played.

    But that is admittedly speculation, in an odd way Penny hurting his shoulder is very similar to Joe Theisman breaking his leg on MNF, it allowed Jay Schroeder to play, and the only way he was going to play was if Theisman was injured.
     
  29. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    You're probably right...we'd have been lucky to see Henne in 4 games this season. Which would have been a fairly useless sample to evaluate him. And then what?

    That's why I prefer our current situation.
     
  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, OT, maybe not, but Penny's play in those 3 games is a part of the reason why we started 0-3, I saw alot that was negative about his play including:

    *2 turnover game against the Falcons.
    *after that game, whenever a passrusher was even close to him, he would turtle up and hit the ground.
    *absurdly short passes on long 3rd downs, maybe a 1 yd pass on 3rd and 8
    *Even Penny's trademark accuracy was just not there, on simple routes, Wr wide open, Penny would miss low with his passes, forcing the Wr to drop and catch the ball negating any chance of YAC.

    Henne on the other hand does offer some upgrades on those flaws, but offers flaws of his own, whether he would have supplanted Pennington this season is a question that does not really matter, Chad Henne is the starting Qb.
     
  31. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    I understand.....but my point wasn't what if Henne never got to play. It was that I felt we would have been better served heading into this off season with him penciled in as the starter.
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    No, I don't believe we would have been, Penny had a great season in 08, as in as good as most seasons Griese ever had, to just bench him would have made no sense other than as an admittance that rebuilding was the goal this season.

    Had advocated we trade Pennington to MN after the Favre deal appeared to have fallen through but that was just not in the cards.
     
  33. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Which for me, is the smarter road taken this year.
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    We are not a rebuilding team, not even close, heading into the season and literally there was 1 maybe 2 starter slots open for competition.

    Cb and Wr every other starting slot was locked down.
     
  35. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Then you were fooled by our success last season. Because we were not a true contender. The first one we faced smothered us....

    You really think we broke down a 1-15 team and rebuilt it in one year?

    This is year two of the rebuild...
     
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  36. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    First 2socks to answer your question.

    First I hated Chad Penny then I loved Chad Penny and now I miss Chad Penny!:lol:

    Let me say one thing about Chad's so called "noodle" arm. It didn't seem to bother The Tuna and that is reason enough to not discount Chad's arm. I hate the term "He can make all the throws." I can make a list as long as from here to Hotlanta of the QB's that had that said of them that are on the trash heap of lost souls in the NFL play book!

    My hope is that Chad gets whatever he wishes for after he makes up his mind as to where he wants to go. The Man is a class act and I rate him as the third best ever to wear a Dolphins Uniform. God bless you Chad Pennington.

    As for Chad Henne, he has some very big shoes to fill, looking at the history of this franchise. Will he do so, your guess is as good as mine, but we are about to find out cause its time to put up or shut up!:wink2:
     
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  37. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    bottom line is the QBs that matter have Henne's arm AND Penny's savvy. If you have a noodle arm and accuracy you are nothing but a glorified backup that will bounce around as a starter because the league doesnt have 32 legit QBs. If you have a rocket arm and zero accuracy, you will be out of the league eventually. We need a QB with an arm, accuracy and savvy. Whether Henne becomes that guy we'll find out. I think he will but it wont happen overnight. At least he's starting now. Monday he'll probably blow chunks but against New Orleans I think he'll bounce back
     
  38. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Although i agree that we werent a legitimate 11-5 team by what that implies, I would also argue that we werent a legitimate 1-15 team considering our injuries and the amount of games we lost by a few points. We were probably a 5-11 team under Cameron and a 7-9team under Parcells. We're probably better this year but may end up with a worse record. A fair record would be 8-8 or 9-7. We'll see how the ball bounces though. We are improving and thats the main thing
     
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  39. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    I love and miss him 2socks.
    He brought more to this team than any other player has since Shula & Dan. I admire and appreciate what he's done for us.
    I guess their all a lot of people who don't feel loyalty to one player or another. But I have over the years. The team is the most important and what each player brings, but I have always had my "favorites".
    When Shula & Dan were ran out for the likes of JJ and wanny, it hurt.
    When Zonk, Kiick etc. left and many more it was sad and ended up hurting the team.
    Then Zach & JT leaving was like a kick in the gut.

    IMO CP never failed this team or fans. He brought hope to us. And gave a season we should never forget.
    I wish him the best in what ever he decides to do. I would love to see him back here in some compacity.
     
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  40. bbqpitlover

    bbqpitlover Well-Known Member

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    Chad Pennington was the heart and soul of the 2008 Dolphin team that brought us a magical season. Pennington has always been a really good qb with incredible accuracy. Now should he lose his job because of an injury, I will say that depends on Chad Henne and his play. If we were to be honest then we would have to say Henne did nothing special in the win against Buffalo, did anyone really get that feeling hey the future is here superbowl here we come like we had with Marino ? One thing that Pennington did for us all was make us believers again, I am for one greatful he did. I have heard people say with Pennington as our qb we could never be contenders, last I checked we were in the playoffs as a division champion and if that happens especially in a division where the patriots play that makes you a contender. Henne has a long way to go my biggest concerns with him is he seems to lack field presence and looks onto his receivers way too often, I think that could spell disaster in the future. But Henne is our qb now and I stand behind him and hope for the best, I guess the best thing now is all the Ginn lovers can't blame Chad Pennington for his lack of production, then again they will just blame someone else.
     
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