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Miles Austin discovered by the Trifecta

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Finatic8480, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    It just gets tiring after a while, to read the constant bashing of a player in thread after thread. Of course people are going to correct something that they feel is posted in error.

    Two plays, do not a season make.

    You used Marshall as an example of why they are 5-0, I countered with the correct stats. Marshall hasn't been much of a factor for them this year, certainly not at the level that he was in prior years. Why? His QB is now playing in Chicago, he doesn't have someone who can consistently get him the ball and stretch opposing defenses. Now he's fighting the same issues that Ginn has, defenses are paying closer attention to him and the offense is going through the RB's.
     
  2. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Then maybe you need to look back and see all those times you chimed in to make sure Teddy got credit for his other, non-receiving TD's. Which really had nothing to do with anything other than keeping Ted Ginn in the conversation.
     
  3. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Did you though?

    You stated Marshall was the reason they were 5-0, that clearly isn't the case. I'm more than willing to tip my cap to folks that open my eyes to something that I haven't seen previously and point to an error in my judgment, but that isn't the case here.
     
  4. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Correcting incorrect information is not making an excuse.

    And of course, I only did it to keep him in the conversation. :rolleyes:
     
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  5. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Once again, no. Absolutely not. I'm not going to shell out a draft pick for a position that I think isn't worthy of shelling out picks for unless it's an absolute standout of a player and clearly Miles Austin is not that. Also, I am not greatly impressed by one game, especially against a poor cover team. Miles Austin is a quality talent but he is no stand out, regardless of what numbers he posted against the KC Chiefs. He's not worthy of a second, third or fourth rounder in my eyes. If I'm going to add him on this team, it's going to be via free agency.
     
  6. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    When you start looking at other WR's, a position that we need help at.....Ginn is going to come up in comparison when evaluating them. Saying Miles has more TD receptions in his past 28 catches, than Ginn has in 37 games isn't bashing. It's a fact....


    Do you know this for certain? Those two game changing plays might be the difference in making the playoffs or home field advantage. If Ginn had made a play like that, we'd be 2-2 right now. How huge for us would that be?

    I was using those big plays in the past two games to discount your theory that you need a Pro Bowl QB for a WR to be able to get in the end zone.

    And yes, regardless of his stats in the first 3 games.......he's been crucial in the past 2 wins that brought them to "5-0"

    Your comparison of Ginn and Marshall doesn't help your case.....one of them makes plays. The other gets beat up on fan forums for sucking out loud.
     
  7. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Jeez scrooge, it's just a 4th rounder :lol:

    6 TD's in 28 receptions.....sorry but that's worth taking a risk on a 4th round pick.

    Especially when we just used a 3 and a 4 on complimentary WR's.
     
  8. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Just a fourth rounder?
     
  9. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Take Marshall out of that line up and are they 5-0?

    Honestly?
     
  10. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Yep......one pick lower than the 3rd rounder we just spent on a WR that is still wearing street clothes on game day.
     
  11. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Fourth rounder is a good pick to have in the draft IMO. You get a group of nice talent there. And as for the third rounder that isn't being activated, you can't get them all right but it is still early. Give it time. I know many are in a hurry to throw several players under the bus.
     
  12. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Not throwing anyone under the bus, and maybe if you weren't in such a hurry to don a cape and rescue every player that you feel is being questioned, you would see that. I was merely using him to make a point. No bashing intended...

    And I agree, a 4th rounder is indeed a valuable pick.....

    But 6TD's in 28 receptions is nothing to sneeze at....and regardless of the opposition, blowing up for 250 yards and 2 TD's in your first ever start, is something you can't over-look. Especially for a 4th round pick.
     
  13. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I never said you threw them under the bus lol. I never directly said you did nor did I imply it. It's not what I was thinking as I was writing that post lol.
     
  14. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I teach Phys Ed twice a week at his old High School, boy am I going to hear about him on Wed!

    They love the guy in Garfield NJ.
     
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  15. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    lol.....ok then my bad

    It's just I'm such a basher around here :shifty:
     
  16. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Making Austin out to be a better player than he really is to further your opinion that Ted Ginn is a bad player is silly. You have to look at the type of offense and supporting cast that each player has, the more open passing game and better supporting cast clearly tips in Austin's favor. Put him on this team and he's our new whipping boy.

    I do, commonsense says that alot will happen between now and the end of the season when you look at it from a team perspective. When you look at it in the case of an individual player up to this point, Marshall hasn't reached the level that you claim he has. He had a very good game today, I'll give him that, but his previous games this season don't match up with your high praise. His numbers were comparable to Ginn's, yet you have been very down on Ted.

    Is that what I said? Not quite, you're skewing the conversation to create a strawman. I said that a QB who can make defenses respect his passing ability can make all the difference in the world when it comes to how close a defense plays a WR, how much room a WR has to operate after the catch and how many opportunities he has to catch the ball. Never once did I make the claim you attribute to me.

    Wait, why does he get a pass for poor play, but Ginn gets plungered up the rear?

    I never compared the two talent-wise, I compared the offenses that they play in. Big difference.

    Thank you for validating my observation.

    With their defense playing the way that it has, yeah maybe. Going into today they only allowed an average 6 points per game, that makes it extremely hard to argue that Marshall is the reason they have the record that they do.
     
  17. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Alen I disagree with the receivers importance to a team. No matter how good your QB is, he won't be successful without targets to throw to. Obviously a QB can elevate the play of his receivers, but he can't make them get open if they aren't good enough.

    Look at how the Patriots offense EXPLODED when Randy Moss came to town. The Cowboys passing game has been terrible without TO, Big Ben has a couple very good receivers, Palmer has Ochocinco, Matt Ryan has Roddy White, Kurt Warner has possibly the best duo in the NFL, and Andre Johnson almost single handedly won the Texans a game today.

    Obviously a receiver isn't the core of your team you build around, but if you have a chance to add him to an already strong core you do it. Having a top receiver opens up your offense for everyone else even when he isn't producing because the defense HAS to respect him.

    Where I do agree is that Austin is NOT that guy. Also if he WAS that guy why would the Cowboys trade him? He was their lone spark on offense today.
     
  18. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Yeah because thats what this team needs, another no.2 WR.



    Then why ask to trade for him?
     
  19. Finatic8480

    Finatic8480 New Member

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    This team needs weapons and one draft might not get all the ones we need. We have sured up our Lines, I think we still need a NT to groom for when Ferguson retires and a premier MLB, but Miami needs a pass catching TE and WR galore.

    Look just because I think Austin would help us does not mean I dont think Miami needs to draft a WR who can become a number 1 WR. Camarillo like i said is a solid Football player, but he has slowed down big time cause of the ACL injury. Bess is a slot reciever and even though I like Hartline he has been solid, but I dont think he can be a true number 1. We need speed and size at WR.

    On a final note even if Henne does a decent job with what he has which is not much. I still say he will need weapons to get to the next step. Hopefully our front office does what it needs to do to get them for its young QB.
     
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  20. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I doubted value of the wide receiver position because I feel like there are very few stand out wide receivers in this league and Miles Austin is not one of those. As I said in the past, I have no issues trading for a wide receiver, you just have to make sure it's a stand out that can take your offense to a new level. The receivers that you mention all are stand outs and elite wide receivers in this league.
     
  21. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    I know we need an elite WR badly but Austin isnt that guy.
     
  22. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    I didn't.....I didn't go any further than to say I thought he was worth a 4th round pick.
     
  23. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Scores more than the one's we have tho huh?
     
  24. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Tashard Choice would beg to differ.
     
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  25. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Not what I did, you just seem to have a habit of wanting to frame me as a "basher" to dis-credit my opinion. What I did say, is that Austin has more TD's in his past 28 receptions than our entire unit does in their last 210. Which is kind of an interesting point, don't you think?

    Saying that Marshall is a play maker and Ginn is not, isn't a shocking revelation to most. Drag out all the stats you want, most NFL fans would laugh at the comparison you are making.



    You said Austin has the luxury of a better QB and offense, as compared to Ginn. And for two consecutive weeks, the great Kyle Orton has helped show you that a play maker can actually make a difference, even with a pedestrian QB.


    Poor play?....watch ESPN and NFL Network this week and tell me if the analysts ever mention Marshall and poor play in the same sentence. They'll be featuring his huge plays this past two weeks. Don't you keep telling me that you're not comparing Ginn and Marshall and I'm the one using one player to make another look bad?.....I mean come on


    Well maybe if he wasn't so protected, it wouldn't be so bad. The bash the Ginn bashers crowd, isn't doing much to help the situation.

    .

    Did you actually see the end of the Broncos two last games? The guy made HUGE plays
     
  26. Tpaddle

    Tpaddle Active Member

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    this guy played out of his mind today...would love to see us go after him
     
  27. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Here are you comments about Austin so far in this thread...

    "Compared to our guys, not only is he a "play maker"............he's Randy Freakin Moss"
    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=866972&postcount=21

    "He's got more upside than any WR on our roster"
    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=866996&postcount=27

    "You wouldn't give up a 4th round pick for a guy that averages better than one TD in every six receptions? A guy who lit it up for 250yds and two TD's in his first ever start?"
    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=867161&postcount=60

    Keeping those posts in mind, let me give you some numbers to digest.

    23 - 435 - 4
    10 - 250 - 2

    That second set of numbers are what Austin put up today, the first set is what he's done in the first 41 games of his career. To say that he has more potential than the WR's that we already have on the roster (who have put up much better numbers in their career) is downright lunacy. You're making him out to be more than he is, he isn't worth a 4th rounder, his performance today was a career game....but just one game out of 42, and he hasn't done more than our WR's in that time.

    If those above quotes aren't building him into more than he is, I don't know what is.

    I'm not making any comparison between the two players, it's intellectually dishonest to keep pushing that strawman. I compared their offenses and how they are allowed to operate within them. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Obviously Marshall wasn't much of a play maker in those first 3 games. What is to stop Ginn from breaking out in the next few weeks now that he has a QB that can throw the ball deep?

    Kyle Orton's problem has never been arm strength, he isn't a Jay Cutler rifleman, but he isn't Pennington either. Orton's problem throughout his career has been consistency, he played the spread in college and actually is a better fit in Denver's offense which seems counter-intuitive when you look at his ability compared to Cutler. Yet Orton has above average arm strength and can take a few chances downfield, defenses need to respect that and that loosens the defense a bit. When you compare how defenses play Cutler vs how they play Orton, Marshall is smothered with Orton behind C. When you look at how defenses play Marshall with Orton compared to Ginn with Pennington, Ginn is the one smothered.

    That isn't a comparison of Ginn and Marshall's ability btw, just wanted to make that clear so it doesn't become a talking point in your reply.

    Please stick to the context of the post instead of looking to create yet another strawman. We were talking about the first 3 games of the season, you said that you didn't care what he did in those games and I asked you why you were giving him a pass for not putting up allpro numbers. You've beaten Ginn into the ground because he hasn't put up great numbers up to this point, but Marshall gets a pass for his first few games. Interesting.

    Nothing more needs to be said in that regard, you clearly validated my point. Time to move on now, we know what your goal is, you stated it pretty clearly.

    Have you watched the Broncos all season or just the few plays that Marshall made a TD? Football is much more than the highlights that ESPN shows on their Top 10 plays of the week, Denver has a stifling defense and pretty damn good running game, they haven't relied on a high powered passing attack. To say that Marshall is the key to their record is beyond silly, may God strike me down if I'm wrong.
     
  28. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Well like I said Austin isn't that guy. I think there are a lot of difference makers in the NFL at receiver though.

    I believe you at least need a solid #1 guy to really compete with the better teams in the league on a consistant basis.
     
  29. Finatic8480

    Finatic8480 New Member

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    Like2God you forgot to mention Austin is a four year starter and that in his first year he was inactive. In his second year he had Terrell Owens, Patrcik Crayton,Terry Glenn and Jason Witten. Third year he had TO, Patick Crayton, and Witten.This year Roy is ahead of him who has been injury prone, Crayton and Witten he is the teams third reciever and when given the oppurtunity he produces.

    Also this is not the first time he racks up over 100 yards and a score to win a game.

    Incredible that a guy who has seen less than Ginn has the same of 100 yard game and more Receiving TDs.
     
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  30. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    He's been buried on the depth chart, getting few opportunities until now...you make it sound like he's played just as much as the guys I mentioned have, he hasn't.

    28 receptions....6TD's from the beginning of 2008 until today.

    Ginn, Cam and Bess during that same period.....210 receptions, 5 TD's.

    Since you went thru the entire thread, did you see me trying to make a case for trading for him? Any reason for me to build him up?

    I saw this thread and noticed that on the entire first page ppl were acting like he was garbage.....and wasn't even worth taking a flier on for a 4th.

    All I did was point out the FACT that he's outscored our entire WR unit, in the past 37 games.

    My point was, maybe he's a little better than what was being said of him. I used Teddy Ginn to make some comparisons.....which is likely the only thing that caught your attention.



    lol.and yet you kept comparing them when it suited you


    The obvious difference in talent

    But he's good enough to get un-smothered on occasion and make game changing plays......Ginn isn't

    Twist this around all you want......what you're doing is comparing a known play maker vs a known disappointment.

    Regardless of Marshall's number's in his first 3 games, they won. Had we won those games where Ginn disappeared, it's less of an issue.

    The only thing Marshall and Ginn have in common is they both show us how badly we need a play making WR.



    You see this is BS......my goal? To come here and bash Ted Ginn?

    Most of this "bashing" would just slide to the side if guys like you wouldn't jump in threads with your capes on trying to bash the bashers, as you refer to us.

    You did your share to turn this into a Ted Ginn thread....you were more than willing to jump in with both feet.

    You act like I come on here starting threads asking for Ginn to be cut or someone to be fired or some other crazy after game emotional crap. I rarely do one liner posts, I provide content and spend time trying to explain myself. If nothing else I present another side.....I would think that tends to stir a better debate than just high-fiving each other and agreeing with everything that's written.

    Is it ok if I have an opinion of my own or should I just wait to make sure it doesn't offend you? Your accusations are uncalled for and way out of line.

    You take Marshall off that team and Orton is in big trouble.....if you can't see what a difference a play maker at WR can do for a team, then keep sticking to that line of thinking that our WR woes are completely the fault of Pennington, and have nothing to do with the lack of a play maker or red zone threat on the roster.


    My point in this thread was that I thought Austin looked like a pretty good prospect and that his TD to reception ratio was impressive.

    Bottom line, I could care less if you agree or not. But implying I have a goal here, to just bash Ted Ginn, Is BS......I've posted on many other subjects and have done far more than just say "Ginn sucks"

    Other than that, we don't agree on Ginn and possibly anything for that matter.....I can live with that if you can and let's just move on.
     
  31. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I want to start off by saying that percent of catches for touchdowns means NOTHING at all. In fact it means LESS than nothing. Austin should have actually had two more touchdowns but he dropped them both in the endzone. One would have been a very nice catch (tipped it with one hand) but he didn't give it his best effort at all. The percentage of catches for touchdowns has a lot more to do with where on the field you are targeted than anything else. For example Vrabel has 11 touchdown receptions in 11 catches. That's 100% but that doesn't make him a great receiver by any means. In fact I'd like to point it out as a negative, if he is getting open he should have WAY more catches. Now if he had 80 catches and that percentage....well that would be something. Heck even 50.

    Also there is a reason Austin was behind those guys on the depth chart. He just isn't nearly as good as them. He had a career day. That doesn't mean he is going to be a star. If he was such a great player they wouldn't have traded for Roy Williams last season, or even if they did they would have found a way to get him more playing time. Even if we assume he IS a star, in that case why the heck would Dallas let him go or trade him for dirt?

    He is what he is, and that is a guy who CAN have a nice game every now and then. Don't expect more and don't expect less. If he has to start he will make plays, but if he is your #1 target you are in SERIOUS trouble.
     
  32. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    When you're scoring on 1 out of 6 catches, it means you're a threat to score. 6 TD's on 28 receptions the past year and 1/4 is pretty impressive for a guy that's been buried on the depth chart.

    Nobody said he was a number one WR.......but he is something we don't currently have. A scoring threat...

    I'd bet the Trifecta would trade any two of our WR's, straight up for him right now. He may not be the number one we need, but he's a better bet to get into the end zone than anyone we have.

    I'm keepin Hartline tho.....I like that kid
     
  33. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    The question is what makes you think Austin could have that type of production in our offense. Tony Romo isn't an elite quarterback, but he is great at putting the ball in a position for the receiver to put up yards after the catch. Not to mention Dallas runs a lot different of an offense than we do.

    I'm all for improving the team in any way possible, but I honestly don't think Austin provides anything worth while for the offense. I've seen every Dallas game this year (sadly) and just because a guy has one great game doesn't mean he is worth going after.

    For example if he didn't have a great game today would this thread have been started? I don't think so.

    As for trading, I'm not sure I'd trade any of our current receivers for him straight up except Camarillo and MAYBE Turner. Though Turner has a lot of potential and I'd like to see what he can do. I'm not sure I'd trade any combo of two guys for him. The absolute most I'd give would be a late 5th or early 6th.

    Whats a more telling stat is touchdowns per GAME not reception. Twelve games played last year and 3 touchdowns. This season looks better but remember two just came in one game.
     
  34. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    The guy has had few opportunities, today being his first start.

    Did you see the last play? Romo put the ball in a position where there was a guy draped all over him.... Austin flipped the guy off his back and ran for the winning score......name someone on our roster that you think could do that?

    He's had limited chances and has done pretty well when given a shot.....like 250 yards and 2 TD's in his first ever start.

    I'd be willing to bet our FO thinks a lot more of him than some of you do....

    Would love to have the guy as a number two option, am impressed with his potential. That's all I'm saying.
     
  35. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    I watched that game yesterday. Austin is fast, has good hand and gets lots of yards after the catch or at least he did yesterday against the chiefs. We badly are lacking someone who can catch the ball and make a big play afterwards. Ginn has been MISERABLE at getting yards after the catch. It's what we need most, someone who gets the ball and can break it for 20-30 additional yards. And Ginn just doesn't do it. Can he? Yes. Does he? No. We need a real playmaker and Miles Austin showed us yesterday what one looks like. I know some of you haven't seen one in awhile and don't know what one looks like (Hint, not Teddy) but we need someone with Austin's skills.
     
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  36. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    In that offense, WR's get a chance to make plays. Any coach worth his weight will find a way to get talented players out on the field, not doing so would be dereliction of duty and is a surefire way to get yourself canned. The fact that they didn't find more opportunities for Austin in 3 years and instead traded for Williams tells me that the team doesn't feel that Austin is a starting caliber WR, he has a place in their offense, but it isn't an expanded role. He started yesterday in place of an injured Williams, he had a great day against an anemic Kansas City defense, it happens. The NFL is littered with players who had a big game only to slink back into obscurity. If he can sustain that throughout the year, I'll be more than happy to change my opinion of him.

    I wish the kid well, but this isn't Madden, one game doesn't automatically put him on a new level. To compare his progress and output to that of Ginn or Bess who have played larger roles (well deserved) with their team and produced more is silly.

    Does anyone remember the Redskins' Timmy Smith?
     
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  37. Gitrdone

    Gitrdone New Member

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    Did something that one of our One's did also, he dropped two touchdown catches against KC also.
     
  38. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    We have "One's"?
     
  39. Gitrdone

    Gitrdone New Member

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    Yes, we do, just not comparable to other teams ones lol.
     

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