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Wh did Ginn/Beck fail where Long/Henne is succeding?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Oct 17, 2009.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    With the Bye week upon us and the Dolphins 09 team showing signs of life, I've wondered this:

    Why did the Ted Ginn/John Beck strategy fail, were the Jake Long/Chad Henne strategy is succeeding?

    The situations are somewhat similar, new HC, New GM, some of the players are even the same, Crowder, JT, Ronnie Brown etc.

    I think it comes down to just a few simple things:

    -Randy Mueller did a terrible job of talent evaluation of the players on the roster and the players in we drafted.

    -Cam Cameron was NOT the offensive genius he was portrayed to be, at least when it came to innovation and player development

    -Dom Capers was a bad Defcoordinator, I think the game may have passed him by.

    -Injuries, and not minor injuries, decimated Cameron's Squad, how much of that was "Camp Cameron" we will never know, but YBell rupturing his Achilles tendon is not predictable.

    -Henne, unlike Beck, had time to develop, Chad Pennington and Trent Green were not dissimilar Qb's, TGreen caught a knee to the head in Week 5 and was lost for the season, Penny played in 19 games before his season ending injuries.

    -Support structure, Cam Cameron had no one to bounce ideas and problems off of, he was a fmr Coordinator on an island because apparently Dom Capers was not really participating, Sparano has the Tuna to talk with, as happens with many of the members of the Tuna's Coaching Tree.

    -Poor leadership, JT said before the season that Trent Green was a hit away from being Scrambled Eggs, once that happened there were no successful veterans on the offensive side of the ball to assume a leadership role.

    -Bad staff/undermanned staff, Cameron and Mueller for whatever reason, allowed the core of the ST unit to leave via FA, then ST Coach Armstrong was put into a impossible situation, Sparano on the other hand has no problems bringing in fmr Head Coaches to run a single sub unit, down the road we will see members of this staff showing up as HC's elsewhere something that never would have occured to Cameron..


    -Poor trades-Wes Welker for a #2 and #5 was ill planned, and if that one were not bad enough, no one was brought in to replace Welker.

    Ireland has given up a 7th round pick for Tony McDaniel and a 5th round pick for Tyler Thigpen.

    -Lack of confidence by Cameron, there were several players who probably should have been cut as dead wood, Alabi and Toledo come to mind, but for whatever reason, Cameron just did not cut them and bring in different players, Imho that was a confidence issue.

    As for the main thought, Ginn was the #9 pick and was thought to be a Percy Harvin type and Beck was a bit older and thought to have a shorter learning curve and with more maturity, his step to NFL starter was to wait a season behind T Green ala Henne waiting a season behind Pennington. Henne was our second #2 pick in 08, he had less demand to perform especially with Pennington playing how Trent Green was supposed to play.

    In Summation though, the one real difference between the two situations has got to be talent evaluation of existing players, Ireland made 100 personnel moves in 08, the roster was constantly being tweaked by choice, in 07 Mueller was constantly sifting through the scrap pile for a Veteran to come in an fill a need right away, Donovan Darius comes to mind.

    That is the difference between being reactive, and proactive, Mueller was not a bad GM, he just did not have the vision Jeff Ireland has, Cameron was a Offensive Coordinator who ran his scheme no matter what, wereas Sparano had no problem at all scrapping his plans for what David Lee had talked to him about in Dallas.

    Have to admire HC Sparano a bit, in the NFL for a first year Head Coach to scrap his plans for an untested in the NFL college offense with a Running Back as the Qb was a massive gamble, one that only a handful of Coaches would ever make.

    To me, that is the difference and the reason why Ginn/Beck failed, Long/(Merling)/Henne succeeded, Sparano was not afraid to play them because he knew they would be prepared and ready to play if needed, with Ginn/Beck, not so much, Beck never took first team snaps, Ginn was stuck on a Wr corps that had proven itself not very good with no player development.
     
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  2. felly smarts

    felly smarts New Member

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    For 1) Beck didn't have a Jake Long protecting his backside
    2) Beck wasn't that great of a QB or we wouldn't have traded him
    3) Ginn after 3 years is just now starting to be an all right WR (and he might be able to turn into a great WR)
    4) Chad Henne is probably the best QB we've had since Marino. Not taking anything away from Pennington, I have a whole new respect for that guy since he's been here and I hope he stays until he's a 104 years old.
    5) Our coaching staff is second to none in this league right now. The brilliance of the coaching staff cannot be matched, not even by the arrogance of Bellicheat.
    6) The fans have also stepped up their game. When Can't Cameron was here, there was more opposing team fans in the stands than Phin Fans. That makes a huge difference in the way we play at home, and for away games for our brothers and sisters who live around the country.

    That's the difference between that era and this one.
     
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  3. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Not sure what Ginn/Beck vs. Long/Henne has to do with anything? More of a case of Cam/Mueller being idiots than anything I would say.
     
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  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, Beck typically threw from max protect sets, iirc, he was not sacked much, but he did have ball handling problems.

    And he was just cut straight out.


    Funny thing is, Ginn had far more experienced Wr to learn from 07 than he has for the last 2yrs, but then Mueller just traded Chambers...what was that?



    He has had a great start to his career, I'd bet whenever he gets the big head they replay that Weddle Pick 6 int...

    Agreed, Cameron was supposed to be the Qb Guru, but he then burdened himself as HC AND Offensive Coordinator, that left little time to work with Beck, even in the preseason.

    Now consider how good the current staff is, the Wildcat was suggested by the Qb Coach David Lee, not Henning the OC, but Lee...that is like the defensive backs coach just drawing up the 46 defense and the HC saying 'implement it" during the season...that rarely happens in the NFL even among Coordinators, among positional coaches that is unheard of, they work with their clique and that is it...normally.



    This may come as a surprise, but attendance was slightly better during the Saban years...we consistently had over 70k people then, in 08 and so far in 09 attendance has been below 70k with the Jets game almost reaching 70k at 69,760

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Miami_Dolphins_season


    Game time: 8:30 PM EDT
    Game weather: 83°F (Clear)
    Game attendance: 69,767
    Referee: Alberto Riveron
    TV announcers (ESPN): Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, & Jon Gruden​

    From 2007:

    Game time: 1:00 PM EST
    Game weather: 81°F (Sunny)
    Referee: Mike Carey
    Game Attendance: 71,109
    TV announcers: (CBS): Gus Johnson (play-by-play) and Steve Tasker​

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Miami_Dolphins_season

    but the trend is upwards from 66k against the colts on MNF to 69k vs the Jets last week.




    In 07, we would have kept Brandon Frye and he would have been a starter for us...

    Sparano and Tuna and Ireland are just better than the past GM/Coach combinations, it is only yr #2, but the draft success and player development is far superior to anything we have had since the late 70's produced the Duhe's and Baumhowers and Bokampers..
     
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  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    A good question, both were highly drafted offensive players who were designed to compliment one another, Beck was to throw to Ginn, Long was to protect Henne.

    Both sets of players were considered "gambles" at the time they were drafted.
     
  6. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    i think the difference is that this FO has a blueprint and they stick to it almost without exception .... the other FO looked for a different blueprint and reached for need.

    we've all seen that reaching for need has not been a successful plan of action for this or any team ...

    the last piece is quality coaching ... this group does a good job of teaching and putting players in a position to succeed ...
     
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Add to that, Sparano or Ireland do not buy into 'the magic coach" theory, in 08 we picked up a young veteran guard in Smiley, in 07 they picked up a rather worn Guard and did not develop a young Guard to play in Game 1.

    Houck was supposed to be the difference maker for that Oline and it just did not happen like that, it rarely does, Anthony Alabi is out of the NFL, so is Joe Toledo, so is Drew Mormino so is Lewinski, so is LJ Shelton (afaik).
     
  8. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Not sure I agree with those assumptions Padre.

    I think Cameron didnt care about year one. He was going to dismantle and rebuild the team in his image. The reality is that experiment was cut short so we have no idea if his vision would have succeeded. I think where Cameron failed is in controlling the organization. Once the injuries hit and the victories failed to materialize he lost control of the team. Cameron thought he had more time. If he ever gets another chance he'll know he's gotta win right away

    Also comparing him to a Parcells regime is like comparing a piano player at a bar to Beethoven.

    Mueller vs Ireland is another disaster Cameron suffered under in comparison
     
  9. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    What happened was, Mueller and Cameron both told Wayne H after they did their player evaluations that they believed the Dolphins were a playoff team.

    "Retool, not rebuild" was the motto back then.


    Cameron does have the ravens offense playing at a high level same as he did in San Diego.

    Ireland was a first time GM in 08, what I did find inexecusable was Mueller dealing Wes Welker, then not replacing his role with anyone on the roster.

    They brought in D Bess day 1 and by week what...6 he was starting? That is a role every team in the NFL has to fill, yet they just sort of ignored it.

    Poor Beck had no one to throw the ball to, which makes sitting Lorenzo Booker for 10 games seem even odder.
     
  10. Vaark

    Vaark Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium

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    Trent Green, with his age and recent history of concussions was just a bad idea which ended up having a ripple effect impacting Ginn and Beck in a number of ways. Beck, unlike Henne, was thrown into a burning fire in desperation with no mentor to guide him. He was il-prepared and il-protected by a mediocre line which compounded his obvious lack of confidence. Any hope of having positive experiences overcome that, was sabotaged with the pre season cutting of McMichael, the in-season trading of Chambers and the removal of the groundgain with Ronnie's injury. He was for all intents and purposed "deweaponized" It was a no-win situation for a college spread offense QB who really needed to acclimate slowly into pro style formations instead of being hurled into the snakepit with great expectations.. Ginn just had no one qualified to throw to him, no running game or secondary receiver threats to divert attention away nor a stalwart OL to give Lemon or Beck enough time to launch the kind of canonball we just saw Monday night which exploits Teddy's strengths.

    So for me it boils down to the il-advised, disastrous trade for Trent Green as the root cause for both rookies' 1st year failures.
     
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  11. felly smarts

    felly smarts New Member

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    I was generally talking about the amount of Phin Fans in the stadium as opposed to opposing team fans in our stadium. Monday Night was the loudest I have heard in at least 5 or 6 years. I was proud.

    Getting rid of Chambers upset me at the time, but when I look back and think about it....he dropped a lot of passes. Wes Welker trade still pisses me off.

    And again to back up my statement about Beck, he was bad enough not to even seek a trade. We just cut him? I wasn't impressed with him at all. At least when we picked up Henne, could look back on his career and say "he played some tough teams in some tough games" Those statements you wouldn't make about Beck. Can Beck be a starter in this league? No. At best he's second maybe even 3rd string. Just another Joey Harrington.
     
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  12. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    That line was atrocious under Cameron.. especially when Beck played. There's a reason why we only have one current starter on our offense line from 2007.
     
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  13. ATLFINFAN

    ATLFINFAN Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Some are meant to be coordinators, some are meant to be Head coaches. It might be as simple as that. I still think Beck was handled wrong, sorta just thrown to the wolves with NO OLINE to block for him. I can still see him getting blasted from behind when he had no clue that the D could get to him that fast. He was flattened, but got up and got ready for the next beating. Sometimes he wasnt even finished with his drop back.
    Ginn was drafted to high. I dont dislike him, but still, to high. Its all in hindsight, but what would we be doing right now if Willis was our MLB.
     
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  14. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    I don't think it goes any deeper than Chad Henne being twice the QB John Beck is and he was always twice the QB John Beck was even in college.

    That 2007 QB class was weak and we all know it.

    Drew Stanton...
    Trent Edwards...
    Brady Quinn...
    Jamarcus Russell...
    John Beck...

    People saw the success of the 2004 and 2006 drafts and they decided to "reach" for all guys that have performed below par so far in this league.

    I remember watching a lot of college football that year and I had assumed that Henne was gonna come out after his junior year, being that he was already a 3 year starter at Michigan. I wanted him. I thought he was the best qb in college football that year, and there's proof of me posting it on the other board. I just gotta find it.

    I'd say had Matt Ryan not been around, Henne goes in the 1st round. In fact, I still haven't figured out why he fell to us. And I still haven't figured out why we didn't pick him with 2a, but heck, it all worked out good.
     
  15. Rhody Phins Fan

    Rhody Phins Fan Well-Known Member

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    Coaching and surrounding talent has a huge impact on whether a player will succeed. There will always be those players who would be awesome on any time but I bet that there are a lot of busts who wouldn't have been busts if they went to a different team.

    Calvin Johnson would succeed on any team but Ginn is the type of player who could go either way depending on the situation that he's in. Hopefully he's in the right situation now.
     
  16. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    I guess what I was trying to say is I fail to recognize why it matters considering Beck is long gone and Ginn is going to be a big factor in Henne's success.
     
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  17. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    Well Beck never had a chance from the start. He was thrown into an awful situation from the start and then never given a second choice. Now, i do think things have worked out for the best and he is nothing more than a career backup.

    As for ginn, luckily he hasnt failed. But that is only because of the current regime.
     
  18. NyPhinfan

    NyPhinfan Season Ticket Holder

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    Simply put comes down to Coaching..Player Evaluation..and a Commitment to being Physical and strong willed from top to bottom
     
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  19. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    I don't think anyone can deny Cameron is a pretty good offense coordinator. But he just didn't have it in him to be a head coach. Most successful coaches are known for being tough and disciplined. Cam wasn't that and it showed with him losing control of the players and his lollipop training camp leading to key injury after key injury after key injury.
     
  20. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    made all the difference in Dolfandom:up:
     
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  21. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    2 things that haven't been touched on. Conditioning and luck. Green/Pennington situations were similar. Both vets coming off injuries with 2nd round qb's playing behind them. Luck held out for Pennington where it didn't for Green. Although lack of effort rebuilding the line didn't help. Think where we would be if Chad H. had to come in last year. Could have been Beck all over again........except without Hadnot intentionally letting his qb get killed (that steams me to this day).
     
  22. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Beck was given the opportunity to compete for the starting job in 2008.

    Here's how that was turning out:

    Starter: Josh McCown
    Backup: Chad Henne
    3rd string: John Beck

    Then the Jets signed Favre, Pennington was released, we signed Pennington, we traded McCown, Henne moved to Backup and Beck 3rd string.

    He was given a chance and couldn't beat out Henne the rookie or journeyman Mccown.
     
  23. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Why was the Welker trade inexcusable? I liked Welker as a Dolphin, but he wasn't producing for us at a level high enough to not trade him for a #2. You can make a strong argument that the draft picks were spent poorly, but trading him for the picks was the right play.

    We would never have experienced, not even now, the production Welker is providing New England. That only comes from having Randy Moss playing opposite you and Tom Brady throwing you the ball. Welker is a good WR, not great.

    However, I agree that Cam Cameron and Randy Mueller sucked horribly. And that our current regime is awesome.
     
  24. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I think Henne being around Pennington probably was a huge factor. Pennington doesn't have the rocket arm so he had to rely on preparation and smarts to be effective. Henne got to see how a professional works an prepares.

    Supporting cast is a another thing. A young QB's best friend is a running game. I think we have that in Miami, not sure :)
     
  25. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    McCown was not going to be the starter, Henne was. I'm not so sure McCown was above Beck either.
     
  26. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Beck was thrown into a crappy situation, bad OL, 3rd string RB, no WRs other than a rookie in Ginn. and an injury riddled team all around, inept coaching staff not to mention the field conditions in some of those games were awful.

    It was a perfect ****storm.


    Cameron was in over his head, he thought he could do 3 things at once, if he had found an offensive coordinator(not named Mularkey) things may have gone differently.

    I give alot of props to our front office and coaching staff for taking risks and trying something new:

    -The wildcat
    -the Cam Wake experiment(so far so good)
    -The Roth experiment(what the hell is going on thus year?)
    -the Wilford experiment(although that didnt work out)

    Saban brought in Houck, and he too believed in "coaching'em up". Of course that doesnt work if the talent isnt there.
     
  27. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I tend to agree. Welker just fits their system better. We don't run a "5 wide spread you out" type offenses. They do and he was a perfect fit. That being said I miss Welker on Special Teams.
     
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  28. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Either way it proves my point.

    And people will say that the FO was playing favorites. But it wasn't like that. All training camp reports pointed to Beck playing under par. He had his chance and didn't do well.
     
  29. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Green/Pennington were similar, and yet they were not, both were injured the year before, but the injuries were completely different in nature and scope.

    Penny had a bad ankle, Green was coming back from a very serious concussion.

    Penny had a complete training camp and offseason cycle to rehab his ankle, there is no rehab for concussions, that is why JT said "scrambled eggs".

    And there was a bit of luck involved, Penny was known for shoulder problems but still managed to start 19 games for us (with a 11-8 record btw), Green only started 5 or 6 with a 0-6 record.

    Now here is a point as well, last year it the Qb rotation was Penny/Henne/Beck, a risky proposition given Penny's injury track record, yet they made it work, Cam went into 07 with Green/Lemon/Beck...and did not have Lemon or Beck ready to play should Green leave due to injury, Henne got playing time in the third game last season...
     
  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Because Welker was not replaced, he was the third down specialist, the Qb's security blanket to pick 3rd downs and once he was gone, who was to take his place?

    Marty Booker? Justin Peele? Who?

    Mueller and Cameron did not think ahead about that, and if it was to be Lorenzo Booker, they should have played him sooner so he could play during the regular season...and they just never did it.

    We all heard stories about how Booker was breaking ankles in TC and in practices, yet he did not see the field to virtually every Rb we had outside of Samkon Gado was injured.
     
  31. m ino

    m ino New Member

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    while alot of these answers ring true,im surprised noone has mentioned confidence.from a fan to a player to the staff everyone has confidence in that tony sporano knows what to do and how to go about it.from cam shameron's first press confrence i felt he was in way over his head as a first time head coach and was going to need all the help he could get and niether the players nor the rest of the staff had much confidence in cam the head coach.
    on the other side tony just spews head coaching material..it's what he does,it's who he is and it's why he was in the coaching business to begin with.every single person involed with the miami dolphins who hears tony speak for ten minutes knows this guy was born to be a hc.tony is so maticulous in every aspect of coaching from talent evals to the gym room and is surrounded by people that share the same way of doing things.
     
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  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    There were signs about that being the case, handling pressure from fans when Ted Ginn was drafted, the entire Culpepper situation.

    When Sparano and Friends showed up, there was -0- hesitation, players who were injury prone were simply cut outright, Icon Zach Thomas was shown the door in the first couple of days and even during a brutal training camp, if a player was on the bikes too often, they were gone.


    I was disappointed Dom Capers did not help out Cameron more than he did, to me Capers could have told Cameron that the position of Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator/Quarterback coach did not exist in the NFL for a reason...

    A funny aside, but Cam and Ryan share one thing in common, besides losing, Cameron never did quite master the whole "use your timeouts wisely" thingy..
     
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  33. m ino

    m ino New Member

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    i agree padre.and if the ginn pick(at that moment) didn't erase all confidence in what cam was doing then the saints pre-season loss surely did when cam came out and said he "took the night off" and let the rest of the coaching staff make all decisions for the game. i was so heartbroken when i heard him say that.i don't think i would've been as worried about our season had he said that before the game even started but to say it in the day after presser just slapped me with the feeling that he had no clue as to how to run a professional football team from top to bottom.
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    :lol:

    I had forgotten about that one, Sparano is taking 1 day off to fly to Albany to watch his sons play football, then it is back to the grind.

    Wayne H was always a soft touch.
     
  35. felly smarts

    felly smarts New Member

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    If Henne would have come in last year....we would've still had a winning record. Our coaching staff would have made sure of that.
     
  36. felly smarts

    felly smarts New Member

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    Capers was still being paid by Buffalo. Nevermind I'm thinking of the wrong person.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2009
  37. felly smarts

    felly smarts New Member

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    It was Mike Mularky that was still being paid by the Squills.
     
  38. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    This is so simple.

    Much much better OL

    Much much better running game that this coaching staff is committed to.

    Henne was giving coaching and is a 2nd year QB vs Beck who was ignored then thrown to the wolves.

    Henne has a stronger and better arm then Beck.

    Ginn was a Rookie.
     

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