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My Early Wishlist

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by Biggtyme13, Sep 27, 2009.

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  1. Bjorn

    Bjorn Season Ticket Holder

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    I would love to get Eric Berry or Dez Bryant with our #1, and get Gresham with our #2. That is predicting that we pick about 7th in both rounds. Boomer what are your thoughts on Arrellious Benn?
     
  2. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Benn is a good YAC'er but he's not Bryant.
     
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  3. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    You think Benn and LaFell are comparable WR's (as in probably put them as the #2 and #3 in this class, assuming Benn came out), with one not distancing himself from the other too much?

    Or do you think one is much further ahead?

    Yes I know it's early, so maybe those two aren't even your 2 and 3 WRs (if they aren't I'd like to know who though).
     
  4. RalphX19X

    RalphX19X >:)

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    Anyone else think Eric Norwood would make a heck of an ILB in a 3-4?
     
  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    For me... it all depends on where scouts truly felt he would've gone this past draft. If he was a solid Top 15, then I don't see non-structural damage related knee surgery pushing him out of the 1st round. He's just too much of a talent IMO <without the Crabtree attitude>.

    We saw Ronnie make a full recovery after a worse tear, so I'm not sure Gresham's would deter us. Heck, Crabtree didn't run at the combine or Pro Day b/c of his stress fracture, needed surgery, came in shorter than listed, played much of 08 with a bad ankle, had a primadonna attitude, and was still taken 10th.

    The Chargers took Cromartie 18th in 06 even though he missed all junior season with an ACL tear and wasn't even a full time starter at FSU as a Fresh or Soph.

    Many analystys thought Jonathan Stewart would fall to the 2nd and possibly 3rd round after needing 4-6 months to recover from his turf toe surgery, yet he went 13th to Carolina, higher than expected even without the injury.

    IMO, history has shown that if a team likes a guy, they're gonna take him regardless of a minor injury or recovery time.... and I see picking him up around 25ish as like getting a "scratch and dent'" bargain on a piece of furniture I love that only needs a new handle. LOL. His price could drop from 5 yr $23million to 5 yr $13mill. To me that's a $10mill savings on a super talent that can now be spent on upgrading through FA. This is premature talk, but I still think it's considerable.

    If that proves to be the case, then I'd completely agree with you. "If" he is shows to only be a slight improvement over Bess, then I wouldn't want him. I'd like to upgrade the slot, but he better be one hell of a game changer IMO. Nothing against Bess, but our overall offensive speed and explosiveness is like a potato sack race.:cry: You gonna keep tabs on Gilyard through out the year?

    Almost forgot... the only player who would prevent me from drafting a sub 4.4 Gilyard or any explosive WR not named Dez Bryant is........drum roll..... Brennan Marion. :D
     
  6. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    CB, RB, WR > TE.

    How often does a TE go in the top 20 picks, let alone first round? And you want to take a guy who didn't play this year (essentially), is coming off knee surgery, and plays TE with around the 18-25th pick? :no:
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I know you asked Boomer, but I thought it was a good question and wanted to chime in, too. :lol: IMO, at this time, this WR class is very weak compared to last year. If this were last year's WR class, I'm not sure if Benn would break the 2nd round.... same for LaFell at this point. LaFell declared last year as a 4th year player, and then removed his name after coming to the realization that he wouldn't be drafted nearly as high as he thought, with other top Juniors ahead of him. Heck, we might have taken P Turner ahead of him. LOL. He was no Kenny Britt, Mohamed Massaquoi, or Brian Robiskie either, all of whom are the same age or younger. He might go in the 1st round of a weak WR class, but that doesn't mean he is 1st round talent. I'd rather get a 1st round talent MLB, TE, OLB. :wink2:

    IMO Benn will most likely only be a possession receiver in the NFL, and that's the last thing we need. If we didn't already have a stable full, then I'd love to draft him.... but right now we need a scoring threat who can gain chunks, and Benn doesn't show tremendous separation or break away speed. Plus he has only 5 TD's in 27 games (compared to Hakeem Nicks' 3 in just 1 game vs UNC)... and it won't get any easier in the NFL. LOL.

    If Brennan Marion makes a full recovery for us, then the only WR I'd take in the 1st 4 rounds right now is Dez.... I think he's the only one who could significantly take our offense to the next level. If we do use 1 early pick on an offensive player <not named Dez>, then I'd rather have Gresham, Spiller, or Best than Benn or LaFell. But that's just me. :D
     
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  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    It doesn't matter how often any player is taken in the top 20 IMO... it only matters how much a team improves from that player. It's minor knee surgery with zero structural damage. That's nothing to worry about. It's not like he lost a finger or an eye... or suffered serious brain damage or amnesia and forgot how to play the game. LOL. Gresham could sit out 5 more years and he'll still have more TD production than Benn. :tongue2:

    TE's are apart of the team, too.... and success is based on their play as well, so why would you give that position less respect than say adding another WR, CB, or RB? Ask Romo if Witten is worth a 1st rounder.... or ask Rivers the same about Gates. LOL. Atlanta used a 2nd on Gonzalez for Ryan, and he's 33 years old. Young QB's love great TE's... possibly more so than a very good WR. Sanchez-Keller... Cutler-Olsen... Flacco-Heap... Roethlisbooger-Miller. A top TE will tremendously help Henne's development and career. What's that worth as well?

    IMO if you can take a player who has the potential to be one of the best in the NFL at his position at #25ish <and he fills a major need>, then you take him regardless of position. Superior players win games. I guess the main thing would be that I feel he can be a game changing TE in the NFL, where as you might not. I feel guys like Witten, Gates, Dallas Clark, Gonzalez, Winslow Sr, Sharpe, Newsome, Coates, Christensen, Bavaro, Casper, and Mackey are worth their price in gold as 1st round picks.

    To me, production is production... no matter what position it comes from. There was a lot of NCAA talent last year, yet Gresham seemed like a man among boys as only a Junior. I just don't take potential 1,000 yard players for granted. Yards are yards, and TDs are TDs. You would spend a 1st on a WR lucky to give us a 800 yards and 6 TDs, but not on a TE who could provide equal or more?

    I guess I just look at it in terms of "what is the maximum potential an offense can achieve?". Maxed out, an offense is capable of 7,075 yards (2000 Rams) and 75 TD's (2007 Pats). Every specialized position can contribute. So if I want to reach full offensive potential <without the luxury of having Brady, Moss, and Welker>, then we need to maximize each position. Right now we're on pace for 5,071 yards and 21 TDs (with a good chunk coming from prevent) LOL. And adding another possession guy (no matter how good of a possession WR he is) isn't going to help increase those totals very much.

    Great TE's are rare, so if I can get one that can increase our production with the same core we have now, then I'll take him and address WR later with someone who is a PERFECT FIT who can then help increase production even further. Right now, we have talented receivers but lack that big play weapon to tie it all together. If I can't get "that" weapon, then I'd rather have a TE whom I know should at least increase our production... b/c the only WR weapon this year who has dominated at the NCAA level like Gresham is Dez. :yes: ..... I know there's not one correct philosophy to a successful team, but this is just how I'd do it.
     
  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    The last I'll say in favor of drafting a Gresham:
    The 09 Draft was one of the deepest and most talented TE classes ever.... and out of ALL this talent, 3rd year Gresham was the cream of the crop. We'd be absolutely blessed to land the best TE of last season with only a late 1st round pick this year (even if it meant trading a future pick IMO).

    Yes, TE's are rare in the 1st round, but the teams who have drafted them outside of the top 10 have actually been pretty successful while seeing great contribution from them. Here are all the 1st round TE's picked 10th or later in the past 10 years:

    **Pettigrew (09 #20) was thought by the Lions to be so important to their offense and Staffords growth that they passed on a LT.
    **Jets starting 3-0 with much help from Keller (2008 #30), who is greatly aiding Sanchez's development.
    **Bears' Olsen (07 #31) is becoming a key part of that offense and integral to Cutler's success.
    **Steelers and Big Ben might not be the same w/o Heath Miller (05 #30) who helped them win 2 SBs.... hence Pitt re-signing him for 6 year $35 million. (5 year $13 million for Gresham is a freakin bargain!!)
    **Patriots have been successful with Ben Watson (2004 #32) who was a major help to Brady before adding Moss and Welker...and was 3rd on team in TDs during their record year.... He was also drafted 3 years after NE took Daniel Graham (2002 #21) who contributed to 2 SBs with 11 TDs, which was 2nd to Dillon over those 2 years.
    **Colts have been one of the top teams in NFL <including 1 SB> since drafting Dallas Clark (03 #24) and an important key to allowing that offense be a scoring machine, hence Indy re-signing him to 6 year $41 million.
    **Jeremy Shockey (02 #14), key contributor to Giants making SB in 08 and helped a young Eli develop... hence rewarded by a 5yr $26mill extension. Now an important player to the Saints future success... N.O. felt he was a key to making their offense with Brees, Colson, Bush etc more dynamic and explosive.
    **Seahawks made a Super Bowl trip in 06 with Jerramy Stevens (02 #28) who has 22 career TD's despite being a bad apple.
    **Ravens have made the playoffs 4 times since drafting Todd Heap (01 #31) who is one of Flacco's best targets.

    So 6 of the past 9 Super Bowl winners had previously taken a TE in the 1st round....which is a high percentage of Superbowl winners having 1st round TE's contributing, and it's also a high percentage of 1st round TE's that contribute to SB winners (which sounds the same but is a completely different percentage.)

    Greshem might be the best TE prospect of the past 10 years (I don't count Gates b/c he didn't play football before the NFL) and the most dynamic tight end since Keith Jackson..... Plus a great TE can be a key role in helping the rest of the offense become multi-dimensional, forcing a Defense to have to defend every square inch of the field. (within Henne's range... had to add that in just for you ,Stitch, so you wouldn't have a chance to say "how about 70 yards down field :shifty: "?) :tongue2:

    Lafell and Benn might be 1st round picks this year, but where do they stack up to the competition over the past 10 years? Benn is no Bowe or Boldin.... and Lafell would've been lucky to be in the top 20 WR's if he came out last year. Just sayin.
     
  10. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    You're crazy if you think LaFell wouldn't have been in the top 20 WRs last year.
     
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    True. What I meant was, with the Juniors, if they declare, the draft is rich with talent. Unless of course, most juniors dissapoint.
     
  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I might have been exaggerating a tad, but at the same time I'm being serious. He does not go ahead of the first 9 WR's in rounds 1 & 2... Then from the 3rd round on:

    10. Detroit passes on him for Derrick Williams b/c they don't need him.
    11. NE prefers explosiveness and takes Brandon Tate over him.
    12. Pitt has Sweed and needs Wallace more.
    13. Giants no way no how take Lafell over Barden.
    14. Miami- don't see Parcels and Co liking him more than Turner's pedigree.
    15. Seattle traded up to get Deon Butler. Have TJ... don't need Lafell.
    16. Bears... doubt they pass on the more productive and consistent Iglesias.
    17. Jax... too many big possession WRs already. HIGHLY doubt they pass on Mike Thomas.
    18. Mia... if we take Turner, we definitely don't draft him now.
    19. Raiders.... 4.5+ forty...enough said. It's Murphy. LOL.
    20. Colts... Absolutely no way Payton passes on Collie.
    21. Bears... might prefer him over Knox, but they got possession in Iglesias.
    22. Broncos.... draft Lafell instead of McKinley in hopes of letting Marshall go.
     
  13. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    You must really not have seen LaFell play a lot to say that (or Iglesias maybe).

    Over their 1st 3 seasons, LaFell had about the same stats, aside from TDs where he beat Iglesias by a lot.

    Not to mention LaFell's 3 inch height advantage over Iglesias.

    On a team that threw only 2600 yards and 21 TDs, LaFell accounted for over 1/3 the yardage and TDs, as well as close to 1/3rd the receptions. Iglesias barely had more yards (200) and receptions (11), and 2 more TDs on a team that threw for almost 4900 yards and 51 TDs.

    I doubt we would select Turner over LaFell given the disparity in production, and only a 2 inch height difference.

    Derrick Williams is nowhere near the pro prospect that LaFell is.

    And for all your calling him as a possession WR, during his JR year he only had 2 games where he didn't have a reception over 20 yards, and 6 times he had games where he averaged over 18 ypc. If that is just a possession WR (you make it sound like an insult when you say it by the way), I will take that every day.
     
  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Actually....Lafelle was a redshirt Junior last year, where as Iglesias was a true Senior. They both had 4 years, so if you really want to compare production over their 1st 3 years:

    Iglesias: 128 catches... 1,711 yards... 9 TDs
    Lafelle: 55 catches....796 yards....6 TDs
    :tongue2:
    Brandon does have a height advantage, but with a Bear's team who needed young WRs to step up immediately, they might opt for Iglesias if they felt Lafell was a more developmental project. ????

    Turner and Lafell 1st 3 years accounting for redshirt year:
    Turner: 89 catches....1,011 yards...7 TDs.
    Lafell: 55...796.....6
    Turner comes from a program that has him more NFL ready, he had more competition (weapons) within the offense to compete with that prevented gaudy yards... and he was the top HS prospect coming into USC. I'm still sticking with Turner. LOL.

    I agree Lafell's better than Williams, but Detroit has CJ and has other WR needs than another tall target.

    Dwayne Jarrett wasn't a possession WR at USC, but that's what he's reduced to in the NFL. I never said possession WR's are bad. I'm highly for them and feel they're invaluable.... but we have a roster full of them, and I'd personally prefer not to upgrade any of them until we've addressed the need for an explosive playmaking WR like Dez or playmaking TE like Gresham.... or at least given ours time to show us what they can become. That's all. Like I said... there's many routes to success IMO.... either of ours doesn't make us right or wrong. :knucks:
     
  15. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I think it's hard to differentiate one from the other at the moment. LaFell is doing it in the best conference, whilst Benn is doing it for an average team when everyone knows he's getting the ball and yet he still gets it. I want to see Brandon hold onto the ball more in 2009. They're both very similarly sized at around 6'2 and 210. It will be interesting, as the season goes on, whethe one can move away from the other and try and close the gap on Bryant.
     
  16. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I don't think Gresham was close to being guaranteed in the top 15.

    I like Gilyard. I like him a lot. And yep, I'll be keeping tabs on him.
     
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  17. DonShula84

    DonShula84 Moderator Luxury Box

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    Why hasnt Ginn's return skills translated to the pro game? Not bashing, just curious. I thought that was one of his skills at OSU
     
  18. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The Dolphins simply wanted him to concentrate on learning to be a WR.
     
  19. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Every time I think of Skinny Ginny and "top 10" pick, I cringe. You think about Ginn and Mike Wallace....Wallace is like a larger, faster, and more elusive Ginn coming out of Ole Miss but taken 2 rounds later. :headscratch:

    Is the talent in college just dramatically increasing the past 2 years?...or did we simply draft Ginn 2 rounds early? :shifty:
     
  20. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ginn was a playmaker in college. When he touched the ball, he went the distance. He was the most dangerous player in college football. Wallace is a wide receiver. In Ginn you have an athlete who probably would have done more and been more greatly appreciated by the masses had he been used more as a sandlot player.
     
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  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    At this point I don't think Ted Ginn has much, if anything, on guys like Mike Wallace, Devery Henderson, Nate Washington and Johnny Knox.

    He just doesn't have the awareness of his surroundings and the quick mental processing to be more than a role player. I'm not closing the book on the guy as if he doesn't belong in the NFL. But, you're never going to get him to be your bread and butter in the passing game. I agree with the notion that even though it's not EASY to find a Ted Ginn, it's also not totally difficult and you absolutely can find that kind of role player much later than we found Ginn.

    A bust implies...I dunno, like Charles Rogers or Mike Williams, someone like that. Wouldn't call him that. But, an Albert Connell in the best of times, an Ashley Lelie or even a Kelly Campbell in the worst of times.
     
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  22. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I think we're reaching a point where his role is redefined; where he goes from trying to be a number 1 to being used as the XFactor player and b that I mean going back to what he did best at OSU - returning kicks and punts, running reverses and being lined up across the formation to create match up issues
     
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  23. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Darn, I hope so. Just out of curiosity and not insinuating anything, but what's Skinny Ginny's trade value? Late 2nd-3rd rounder maybe?
     
  24. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Hmm. I'd say 4th rounder.
     
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  25. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    I actually see him being traded after this season if he doesn't breakout. After all he doesn't fit the mold of this offense which needs a big physical presence.

    I believe Baltimore would trade for that. I would much rather see him paired up with a strong number 1 like Andre Johnson.
     
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  26. mroz

    mroz Fix the OL Club Member

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    don't know about that, our offense put up 34 points yesterday. That should be enough to win a game.
     
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  27. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    And then preceded to go 3 and out for most of the 2nd half, with the exception of Brian Hartline's big run after catch. Our $130 million oline was abused for most of the game. What was the TOP in the 2nd half? Our defense was exhausted... They stepped it up with a red zone pick and ran out of gas the rest of the way, IMO...

    Right now I'm watching Eagles-Skins, and specifically DeSean Jackson. The big difference between him and Ginn is aggressiveness. Jackson has no fear and plays balls to the wall. He looks like he's having fun too, something Ginn does not look like (and for good reason).

    Boomer- What would you think of Ginn has as the 3rd/slot receiver? IMO, He could replace Bess (Who I'm not fond of, I think he's way too slow and dances at the LOS instead of exploding into his routes) and let Cam and Hartline be 1 and 2 this season.
     
  28. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Hes also quick and has huge acceleration. On that bomb he had to almost stop to pick it up, and still had the acceleration to make the 6 with the safety running hard. And that move he made was gorgeous, Rodgers bit hard and just sat looking at McNabb. May have been some blown coverage as well, but still a great move.
     
  29. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    DeSean also has swagger Ginn does not. Ginn has always been pretty quiet. He does show his emotion after a big play but isn't cocky like DeSean Jackson.
     
  30. Biggtyme13

    Biggtyme13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Eagles also have Jeremy Macklin and Brent Celek that need to be accounted for we have nothing in the pass game to worry about. Ginn is struggling because he is forced to be a number one. If we trade him and get a number one we still wont have a number 2 and we will all be crying that we dont have a weapon and he is getting double teamed. Ginn will be a good number 2 if we can get a number 1. I understand based on his draft position what we want out of him but we are not going to get that.
     
  31. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    We have a number 2 in Greg Cam or Hartline. Ginn might be too inconsistent to even be a number 2.
     
  32. Biggtyme13

    Biggtyme13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Cammy a number 2? The day he is considered a number 2 is the day you know we have a true problem at receiver. Yes cammy makes plays but he is slow as dirt and is a good rotation guy who can play 20 snaps a game.
     

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