In the first round i would like to get a playmaker offensive or defensive. If we go defense in the first round hopefully in the second round we go with a receiver like Thomas from G-tech. Maybe a guy like Taylor Price moves up in the draft. 6-1 and runs a 4.35 40. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Good points all, especially on Pierre Paul. I haven't seen Jarrett yet, but have been hearing good things about him.
He's a JR, no word yet if he'll declare. Aside from that, I can never tell if Demaryius actually knows how to run routes. I know he went to GT with the intention of playing in a pro-style offense, but it definitely hasn't worked out like that. I know he is big, fast, and can jump, but I know this regime will want someone who can run good routes as well.
I think the details are important when it comes to this C.J. Spiller debate and I think important details are being sort of glossed over when people try and think of reasons why we'll go for Spiller. Firstly with the Percy Harvin comparison, again I have to point out that Percy was a WR, a position of need for us. That was the position he would be playing like 95% of the time. C.J. Spiller would be playing RB, and if we have Ronnie Brown, Ricky Williams and Patrick Cobbs, that's not a position of need for us. That's not even a position where he could make a first year impact. He probably won't be better in the specialty/blocking type roles than Patrick Cobbs. And if he is better than Ronnie Brown or Ricky Williams at carrying the ball, then you just end up with a talented guy getting paid to sit the bench. Keeping guys fresh is not an issue in this offense. Ronnie and Ricky rotate and they're both fresh as a daisy in the fourth quarter. The second comparison where I find important details to be glossed over is the Chris Johnson "luxury" pick comparison. When the Titans drafted CJ, all they had was LenDale White, and all he'd done as a pro thus far was gain 3.7 yards per carry, looking like a real banger. They had another guy in Chris Henry that had proven next to nothing, carrying for 119 yards on 3.8 yards per carry. LenDale hadn't proven what Ronnie Brown or Ricky Williams have proven, and Chris Henry couldn't even be considered on par with a Patrick Cobbs. There was definitely room for Chris Johnson to make an impact on that team.
While I agree with the point you're making I think you should be banned from making any analogies in the future.
I don't think they saw Harvin as a WR. As a WR prospect Nicks would have been a better fit. What made Harvin attractive was that he was a play maker who could play everywhere. Even Harvin in Minnesota has more touches at KR and RB than he does at WR on a team that is more pass heavy than Miami. If they went with Spiller he would be a a PR/RB/WR. He would also be the potential reverse guy on KR. He would have as much first year impact as just about any player we could draft. (I actually don't think first year impact is an important consideration). He would basically be a much more explosive Cobbs. Whom IIRC we were splitting out at WR on occasion prior to his injury. I don't think he is a no brainer pick. There are other viable options potentially available. I'm can't even say he's my first choice. But if you don't think he's a consideration then IMO you're under estimating the emphasis they will put on finding an offensive play maker.
That is severely misleading. He has 28 KRs, which is as many receptions as he has (2nd leading WR on the team btw). He only has 8 runs. You can't lump KR and runs together vs receptions, because one of them doesn't have to do with the offense. The fact is he has 3.5 times more catches than runs. I doubt one could say the same about Spiller if we (or anyone else) drafted him.
That's an interesting take, but I have to go with CK on this one. It just seems logical that the Dolphins would have looked at him as a WR primarliy, then as a kick returner, then as a wildcat wildcard so to speak, and lastly as a running back in a pinch. Quite a weapon. There would be some overlap with Ginn, but they're different animals. As to Spiller, he's quite a player. Multifaceted for sure, but the fundamental difference exists that he's primarily a RB as opposed to Harvin. That's a big difference for a WR starved steam like ours. I don't think that you can skew the #'s by including ko and punt return touches- Harvin has way more receptions than carries. As to Nicks- Vontae Davis looks like a keeper, but I don't think that we would have gone wrong by taking Nicks or Harvin in the 1st- both would have filled big time needs for our constricted offense. I still wonder if the Fins would have pulled the trigger on Harvin if he were available- I don't think that you meet with a player four times to put on a show, but you never know.
CK is right that Spiller would definitely have a lesser role with RB & RW on the team. However, you make an EXCELLENT point, Raf, about CJ having as much first year impact as anyone else we could draft.... and this is what I think we should be focusing on. And IMO, the only guy who could have a greater impact would be McClain b/c of his game intelligence, instincts, and awareness.... and he's already a beast in size. (and maybe Spikes). I for one will suffer irreversible depression if I see another 5 receiver spread featuring Polite split out wide, with only 1 guy running a sub 4.5.... or another 3rd and long with play action to Ronnie behind Lou. I'll be watching every future game in a straight jacket next to 4 guys talking to the ceiling, repeating the same phrase over and over again "Look at the slow fullback split out wide...Look at the slow fullback split out wide...Look at the slow fullback split out wide." I don't think we have the option of being picky with who we draft. We need a playmaker in any shape or form <who has the ability to catch the ball>, and if that happens to be Spiller b/c Dez & McClain are off the board, then I'm taking him and not looking back.... b/c we can't afford to screw ourselves by passing on a playmaker early and be left yet again with only possession guys to choose from. Plus, it's not like Cobbs is a haymaker. LOL. He had 59 total yards in 5 games. CJ will get that on 1 play. AND, Cobbs is not a return guy. Compare Cobbs to the Saints 3rd back, Reggie Bush, who has 333 yards of offense and 4 TDs this year. He had 3 punt return TD's last year, and he is important to NO being a completely dynamic, multi-dimensinal offense. CJ gives you field position on punts, and who does a team kick to when you have him and Ginn back deep? Not to mention- Spiller is electric! He's a game changer! He can quickly send a jolt into your entire team that can shift the momentum to your side in under 10 seconds flat. Knowing he's on the field just adds extra confidence and swagger to your team. Players want to give it their all b/c they know something big might happen at any moment. Our OLine would love CJ!! Those hogs could really use a big play scattered amongst the long, physical, ball controlled drives in order to save them a little stamina for the 4th qtr. Let a defense get worn out and winded by chasing Spiller around the field and then let the Online and Ronnie pound them into submission.... then once the power run game leaves them even more gassed and physically abused, bring CJ back in to break off a big one to put it out of reach. If our defense is making big plays early, then we need to capitalize on those quickly so to not give our opponents time to regain their equilibrium. It should be: Long ball controlled drive (by us)- TD. Then 3 and out on D.... get the ball back, and quick strike TD. Not much time has passed so defense still has their momentum and adrenaline going and are excited that the offense is turning their good play into actual points, hence coming back onto the field with serious fire and ferver to put the game away early. Down 14-0, offense is on their heels and intense, maniacal, wired defense creates a TO off a huge play. Adrenaline can't last an entire game for the D, so explosive offense is fortunately able to capitilize on on turnover and now up 21-0. Offense keeps up the high pace through the first half to allow the D to continue making big plays before their precious adrenaline diminishes. Into 2nd half, opponent's exhausted defense from running all over the field is now physically pounded on with our Oline and Ronnie, however having Spiller allows us to have big gains from high percentage/low risk calls. Opponents offense is never allowed to get into a rythm or play "their style" of football, and are forced into a more predictable, one-dimensional attack.... for which we can pash rush the heck out of and give our young, stud CBs a chance to make some INTs. This is where Wake takes over a game on defense.... and Spiller deals the exhausted, beat-down defense one last in-your-face, fatal blow like taking candy from a baby. Well, that's how I would game plan it anyways. LOL.
Okay. Seems like I'm in the minority here. Where would you rate him among offensive guards currently playing the NFL? 1. Steve Hutchinson 2. Chris Snee 3. Kris Dielman 4. Logan Mankins 5. Alan Faneca 6. Eric Steinbach 7. Leonard Davis 8. Ben Grubbs 9. Brian Waters 10. Davin Joseph 11. Deuce Lutui 12. Stephen Neal 13. Travelle Wharton 14. Jake Scott 15. Rich Seubert 16. Daryn Colledge 17. Ryan Lilja 18. Jahri Evans 19. Carl Nicks 20. Max Unger If he is not among the Top 20 and he is not a role player then how do we classify him? Keep in mind health plays a factor. If Smiley was 100% all of last season I would rate him higher.
Its the age old debate. Best Player Available versus Need. Of course it will depend on who is on the board but if Spiller is the BPA should we take him? I look at the Adrian Peterson draft. A lot of Dolphins fans were focused on Brady Quinn, Levi Brown, Leon Hall, and Darrelle Revis because those were our needs. Peterson was an afterthought. In hindsight it seems ridiculous not to have him at the very top of your board. I'm sure the Raiders are kicking themselves for drafting JaMarcus Russell instead.
I would have taken Adrian Peterson in that draft and never looked back but that was because I had him literally as the best player in the draft and probably the best running back to come out of the draft since....I dunno, Barry?
Now that I think about it "role player" might not be the right way to convey what I'm getting at. Maybe I should have called Smiley and Grove lunch pail guys. Is that a better description?
Todd, It's not that I don't want Miami to draft C.J. He is a great talent. I see him as another Felix Jones. Explosive back that can score on any play. Problem for me is, his position. With Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams running, I doubt he sees much time there. Returning the ball, I don't know how much time he will see there with Ginn performing the way he does when he gets the chance. IMO, if we draft an offensive player this April, the position has to be WR/TE. We need to find our QB some weapons.
I agree with you on that to an extent, Ash. IMO, It all comes down to the value we place on CJ as a whole compared to who else is available at the time.
Boomer has an excellent premise in pegging us to pick #16 overall, who would be the first 15 players taken ahead of our slot? For kicks: #1. Tampa Bay Suh #2 Cleveland Dunalp #3. St Louis Dez Bryant #4. Detroit Okung #5. Tennessee Berry #6 Chiefs #7. Washington Bradford #8. Seattle #9. Raiders #10. Jacksonville #11. Carolina (49ers choice traded for the pick) #12. Bills #13. Giants #14. Bears (Denver selects) #15. San Diego Sad thing is 1-9, are very likey to not break 15 wins between them, #10 Jacksonville will probably have 5 or 6 wins But at #16, even non homerism, there will be some great players available, the #1-#9 teams have so many "needs" guys are going to slide.
Passrusher is one of their needs, and his name popped into my head. Could as easily be Colt McCoy, or Bryant or whomever, that goes for most of the first nine teams.
I don't think that his primary position being RB is a non-factor. I believe it is a factor. It is one of the reasons that I stated that Spiller probably wouldn't be my first choice. I just don't agree that it's such a big factor that it takes him off the board. I think his value is upgraded b/c he is a play maker and that he can have an impact from various positions. I believe that's what made Harvin so attractive to this regime last year. As a WR, he wasn't the best choice, but the fact that he was such a play maker and could have an impact from other positions upgraded his value.
I think your list is a tad skewed, but based on his form in Miami, he's unquestionably top 6 at worst.
Yeah me too. Absolute no brainer. We said at the time he was easily the best back since Sanders and we've not been proved wrong.
Again, interesting. But one of the main reasons why we're running the wildcat is so we can get our two best players on the field at the same time, and those players are running backs. So whereas Harvin would fill a major need at receiver, be there for kick returns and be available for some wildcat action, Spiller couldn't be there to plug the gaping hole at WR. So he just doesn't provide the synergy that Harvin would. But would Spiller stay on the draft board? Sure. As per Harvin/WR best choice issue- Harvin is leading all rookie WR's in reception yardage, barely over Collie and Nicks. He's arguably the league's best return man. Childress raves about his blocking. He's a threat as a running back. He's the odds on favorite for Rookie of the Year. That being said, I still have a soft spot for Nicks. But at the end of the day Harvin, and what he offers with his entire slate of talents, would be the guy.
Our #1 pick, hands down, trading up for if needed is Rolando McClain. I've made up my mind! LOL. We can spend the rest of the draft on offensive weapons, but we will need an intelligent QB on defense to lead our young guys as JT and JP move on. McClain is a once in a decade guy in this mold. I just finished watching a short piece on him on ESPN gameday, and it reaffirmed to the nth degree about how special I feel he is. This kid spends 15 hours/week watching game film and is the active brains of Bama's awesome D. He's seriously like the Bobby Fischer of linebackers. This is one guy I WOULD ABSOLUTELY trade a future picks for to free up our 1st rounder for Spiller, Gresh, etc. We need an MLB. There is no one better, nor will there be over the next few years. End of story. LOL. No need to double up when you take this kid, so that saves a pick in essence. I'd nab Derrick Johnson in FA to throw into the mix as a perfect complement, but that's just my 2 cents.
Yeah I wasn't following the draft that far back so I just have to assume but he was certainly the best RB prospect I had ever graded. Posted via Mobile Device
Harvin has 1 more receiving yard despite Nicks missing a couple of games with an injury. So Nicks' per game average is much higher. Nicks also has 1 more TD and a higher average per reception. In the Minn. games I watched, Harvin was mostly running pass routes from out of the backfield or out of the slot (like we used Cobbs). Only occasionally have I seen him run the deeper WR routes. Basically they use Harvin almost exactly like we used Cobbs. I don't see it as a great stretch to see the Dolphins using Spiller that way.
But running backs catch passes too. Last year Cobbs had 12 rushing attempts and 19 receptions. You can't assume all of Harvin's receptions are as a WR. In fact, during the games I've watched he's been used mostly on the shorter routes, swings, crosses, curls and outs. Sometimes out of the backfield and sometimes out of the slot. Only occasionally, is he ever split out on the end. In other words they use Harvin like we used Cobbs.
Using Harvin in that fashion makes sense with Berrian already there as a deep threat and Sidney Rice coming on strong. So he fills the slot gap. And if needed I think that he would be fine outside, too. Plus with his quicks Harvin has the makings of an outstanding slot guy. I think that Henne called him the quickest WR he's ever seen out of breaks. Versatility, strength, toughness, unreal speed, unreal quickness- that's why I'm such a big fan of his. Dude is uber talented. Nicks- he just makes plays. And you're right, he's right up there stat wise despite missing significant playing time. He got in the preseason games and bam- TD machine. Got back from injury in the regular season and he's consistently finding the endzone. And that TD off of the deflection-for my money that's a winner in the right place at the right time and taking advantage of it. You don't have to be blazing fast to be a great #1- ask Rice, Irvin, Boldin- you have to be able to get open and make plays on a consistent basis. Nicks looks to be one of those guys.
That's fine if you want to argue it like that, but using KRs as part of your argument as "having more KRs and rushes than catches" is where I had the biggest beef.
1. We honestly have no idea what Miami's interest in Percy Harvin was. On draft day Dave Hyde told Simon that the supposed interest in Harvin was a big ruse. 2. Percy Harvin is a receiver. C.J. Spiller is a running back. Bottom line. 3. We have no idea whether they graded Nicks worse than Harvin or better, but regardless, how the two are doing this year from a yardage standpoint is perfectly irrelevant. There are receivers taken after Hartline and Turner that are outperforming them. Do we now assume that those guys were higher on the draft board and we took Turner and Hartline because they decided to throw darts on the draft board?
True. I stated at the beginning that it was my belief that Harvin was their first choice. I never claimed it was fact. I think that the way Harvin and Spiller would be used is the true bottom line not the label. And that bottom line looks awfully similar. The yardage production discussion was to support my belief that Nicks was a better pure WR prospect. But I thought it was evident prior to the draft as well. Harvin's value is that he was more than just a WR. It's the same with Spiller. I believe they both can be used similarly. The value the team places on that versatility is what determines whether he's a consideration.
I think that the disconnect here is that you seem to be assuming that the Dolphins would use Harvin in the same fashion as the Vikings, and if so that removes the critical x factor that separates Harvin and Spiller in a big way- Harvin is a WR who can play out wide as a deep threat, Spiller is not. At the risk of repeating myself, they have Berrian and Rice outside with speed- we have squat except for a demoted Ted Ginn. We are starved for players to thrive in that role, the Vikings aren't. So hypothetically Harvin as a Dolphin- he plays the slot and some wildcat but the most important thing for us is that he fills a gaping hole at WR/ effective deep threat. Spiller as a Dolphin sees spot duty in the Cobbs role and is behind our two best players in RB and RW. Huge difference. As to Harvin and the issue of targeting- my gut tells me that we would have taken him if available, but my gut has been wrong many a time before. I heard that Belichick was all over him- traded down after Harvin was off the board- and apparently the Jets wanted to make a move for him too, in a bad way: "The Vikings ended up drafting Percy Harvin with the 22nd pick in the first round of Saturday’s draft, but they weren’t the only team that wanted the explosive wide receiver from Florida. Star Tribune columnist Sid Hartman detailed in his Monday column how the New England Patriots wanted Harvin, and now Clark Judge of CBSSports.com reports the Jets wanted Harvin enough that they offered Philadelphia a package of draft picks to move up to 21st. The Eagles, though, made their own trade to move up to the 19th spot so they could get wide receiver Jeremy Maclin, who surprisingly was still around at that point. The Jets had offered the Eagles four draft picks, including two in 2010, according to Judge." http://blogs.startribune.com/vikingsblog/?p=2793 http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/43751632.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUo8cyaiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11688781 p.s. I wish that we would take a look at Dudley Guice, whom CK mentioned pre draft, as a deep threat. He's playing in the CFL now.
