I want to voice my opinion here...

Ginn: With Ginn, I think it's clear he's really struggled this year. We don't know what the cause has been, but it's clear he's not taking that next step. I don't see us cutting him outright, due to salary cap ramifications (unless we're uncapped next year), but we could certainly trade him.

Bess: I don't think you get rid of Bess at this point. He's leading the team in targets, and while it's true he's struggled recently I don't think that's enough to just ship him out. Keep in mind this is really his first time playing with a strong armed QB, going all the way back to when he played at a Hawaii.

Hartline: Hartline has shown flashes, I don't think we'll let him go. In many ways, he probably has the highest "ceiling" of all our receivers.

Camarillo: He's been our most steady receiver catching the ball. Knee injuries are a tricky thing. He'll never be a #1 option for us but he can be a reliable guy that makes tough passes.

Turner: To me, Turner is this year's Shawn Murphy. What does it say about him if he can't get activated, and the rest of our WRs are this poor? At the time of the draft most called this pick a reach and it doesn't look like we'd have any reason to doubt that. He'll be cut next year if he doesn't make steps forward in the offseason and preseason next year.

 

Not sure of the exact purpose of this thread, but Ill play along.
I think you pretty much nailed it, but I don't think either Bess or Cam will garner any trade. Just flat out cut is more like it.

 

As far Ginn goes I definitely believe he is going to be traded or cut before game one next year, but like you said he may stay on as a kick returner I have always said Ginn is the next Desmond Howard his trade value isn't very good so we will take a big hit on Ginn no mater what. Bess is probably the best receiver on the dolphin corp, he has a big up swing for us so if he is traded we will get something for nothing considering Bess was not drafted, but I am hoping he stays. Hartline is young and really hasn't stepped up as the number one guy in the last two games but like I said he is young. Camarillo is still a hero In Miami, I'm not sure what his trade value is. Miami needs to persue a stud receiver in the off season we are getting killed with our number one receivers not producing on the field, but I can only see Ginn getting the pink slip.

 

Keep Bess, cut Turner. We havent seen turner, im assuming he cant do much.

Definitely keep Camarillo. He's the only one who can grab the ball and fight for it.

And keep Hartline, he's still a rookie.

Trade turner and/or Ginn and get an established star WR in FA or trade.

 

You keep Hartline, Camarillo, and Bess and you go get a real number one through trade or free agency. Maybe draft another receiver as well. With a real number one added those previously mentioned three can be pretty good.

 

Good thoughts.

I would have a problem keeping Ginn to play on ST though; a guy like that, eventually the numbers say that he'd be pressed back into service at some point due to injuries.

When Jason Allen came in to play CB yesterday, I threw up in my mouth.

If a couple of years from now things were going great on the way to a playoff run and Ginn had to play WR because of injuries, he would no doubt drop the level of performance.

Be done...get rid of the little *****. Let him be a girl on some other team.

As for Bess; remember that on balance, he has had a nice (albeit short) career for us and that his problems are recent and could be the result of a slump - unlike Ginn, who has always been a piece of ****.

The value of a guy like Bess is readily apparent in Wes Welker; that guy who doesn't have the gaudy stats but just makes catches when you need them.

I definitely think we'll see Patrick Turner soon.

I wouldn't doubt that the coaches have had to do a little tearing down of the underachiever typical of all those foisted on the NFL by Pete Carroll during his tenure at USC, in order to try to build an NFL player.

If they succeed, watch out - because at 6'5" and with his speed, he could have a Larry Fitzgerald-type of effect on this Offense.

At worst, he could be a dangerous red zone target.

 

I don't know about Turner being a Fitzgerald-like impact player, Nabo. I see him more as a little less physical Keyshawn Johnson. I think he works the sidelines really well though, his slants and comebacks are well done too. He needs to be more consistent with his hands, IMO.

Mostly agree on Bess though. I think he's just in a slump. Problem is, it could be a bad time to have a slump because, pending on the CBA, he could be ERFA. It'll all depend on if they tender him.

 

No, not an impact player...although that could happen too, it's just less-likely.

I'm saying that he could have an effect on this Offense commensurate with his size and talent; The Larry Fitzgerald Effect, if you will.

He could simply make us able to do things that we couldn't do without him; in other words, not a Bess or Camarillo - plug-and-play type guys who could be replaced adequately by other possession Receivers, differing styles and skillsets notwithstanding.

 

Did you throw up in your mouth when he broke up the touchdown pass to Moss?

Still I do not understand why people are keen on keeping Cam and Bess. If they can be improved on, I say replace them. You do not keep Brandon Stokley unless you have to.

 

Ginn is as good as gone unless he just dominates for the rest of the year, Its a shame the Jets aren't on the schedule anymore

 

Jason Allen played pretty damn well all things considered.

The WR Corp is an absolute mess. Easily the worst in the NFL. Personally, the only guy worth keeping (salary cap aside) is Hartline. I really think he could be a solid #2 guy for years to come.

Too early to tell with Patrick Turner, but the fact he still hasn't been activated is troubling.

If we don't throw the bank at Vincent Jackson or draft a Dez Bryant if he's available we'll continue to have these discussions.

 

Hartline stays,
Turner stays,
Cam stays,
Bess??
Ginn....history, more than likely he's cut.

Right now Hartline and Cam are our best WR's, that's how bad we are at that postion.

TE is also a need, we have to upgrade that postion also.

 

It would appear that after 2400 posts, you have voiced your opinion many a time. What makes this different?

 

Why all this love for Turner??? The guy can't even get on the field with the recievers we have now that "are so bad"?? If the guy was anywhere close to a real #1 or #2 he would be starting on this team.

Saying that we did draft him and should give him a little time to develop, but I dont expect anything out of him. Hell look at Crabtree, the guy didn't even play half the season, go to training camp, do anything with his team and he's already been more productive than Turner.

 

Of course everyone is now off the Bess bandwagon. WTF

 

I agree on Turner. If he was capable of having any real impact, we wouldve already seen him by now.
Interesting you bring up Crabtree. He has already almost equalled Ginns receptions for the year. I know its not his third magical year yet. I guess nobody told him that rule

 

True THAT!

 

Some players take longer to adapt than others. Turner is going to surprise many people. You will see it happen.

 

Yours was an excellent post. Don't sweat the "why's," just keep posting!

 

outside of holding onto him solely because we drafted him, I see no reason to keep Hartline either. Or turner.

Parcells quote earlier "if a dog doesn't bite as a puppy, he never will" Well, Turners not getting on the field and bess and ginn have given him every opportunity to shine.

 

Like I said:

That takes a little time, and the season is only half-over.

 

they could all be cut and we probably wouldnt suffer one iota next year.

having said that i think you have to rank them in terms of matchup talent and how easily upgradeable they are. When I do that I come up with the following in order of cutting

Devonne Bess - very likeable as a football player and has his moments. Gritty and seems to play his heart out. Bottom line he runs a 4.7 and is starting to drop passes. Slot receivers are easy to replace via free agency and we should look to upgrade next year via free agency saving our draft picks for other positions of need

Greg Camarillo or Brian Hartline - 4.5 or 4.6 possession guys. Bottom line is these guys are duplicates of each other and there is simply no reason to double up on intermediate possession types. One has to go. Camarillo is better at the moment but Hartline may have more potential. How much more is really the question? Can he become Anthony Gonzalez or just anther Camarillo. If its just another Camarillo we might as well keep the original and get rid of the newbie. If its AG then dump Camarillo and let Hartline play

Turner - The great mystery. The fact that he isnt playing on this receiving unit is frightening but do you trust the coaches evaluations when it comes to receivers?. He offers the size that none of the other do. Do we cut him and just get another physical specimen

Ginn - Clearly having problems but he has speed you proibably wont be able to replace. If you try in free agency it will cost you a fortune. If you try through the draft it will cost you a high draft choice and maybe another three years of grooming since speed guys tend to take the longest to get acclimated and develop.



Best bet IMO is we go after a FA slot receiver, playmaker WR in the draft and TE who can run the seam in either draft or FA.

We cut Bess and Camarillo and keep Ginn's speed, Turner's size, Hartline's potential, upgrade at slot and add a playmaker in the Dez Bryant/ Brandon Marshall mold

Add Andrew Quarless or Dennis Pitta at tight end in the 4th round and we may have solved our paqssing woes

 

I hope we trade Ginn and not outright cut him. Even getting a 7th rounder is better than him going to the Patriots

 

So Bess is in a slump, be we can't classify Ginn as being in a slump? Our whole WR core is in a slump right now. As for who to keep, i would keep Ginn, Hartline, and one of either Cam or Bess. Cam and Bess both bring the same thing, heck you could prob lump Hartline right in with them. As for turner, we do need a Number 1. Ginn is a #2 at best, and it sure looks like he has no confidence at WR atm.

And our running game is innefective because we won't spread our players out forcing the D to get out of the box. Instead we line everyone up tight so the D has 9-10 in the box and we try to pound it on them as they run blitz us. Cause lets face it, our passing game scares nobody right now.

 

Ginn was improving from year to year, he hit a wall right now. So that could be called a slump. Bess had one year, maybe Bess is just a one year wonder? And Bess is no Wes Welker, Cam is closer to Welker then Bess will ever be.

 

Ginn has improved at times and then regressed. It has happened more than once.

In any case, he has had 2 1/2 years to show something; he's failed, at different times, at punt returns, kick returns, and the position he was drafted for, WR.

Note that his two TDs as a Kick Returner last week were his first ever, and that he didn't even come close against the Pats; in fact, he looked like he was running at half-speed the whole game against the Pats, instead of being fired up as he should have been after his performance in the Jets game.

 

How could he come close against the Pats, what did he return maybe 2 or 3, the rest were kicked out of the endzone. I mean you can't return a kick that lands out of bounds. The Pats took him out of the return game with those kicks. It was part of their plan, he looked fine when he did get a chance to return, got us over the 35 on the one return. Not every return is going to be a homerun. I am starting to get the feeling that everytime Ginn touches the ball, that everyone thinks it should be an instant big play, and when it doesn't happen, they get all pissed off and talk down on the kid. Is he having issues atm? For sure. Is there a chance he can play thru it? Sure. Is there a chance he might not? Sure.

And out of his 2 1/2 years, he has been a Kick returner for what? 1 Year? There was a time when returners at most would take two kicks back a year, sometimes 1 or 2 more. Then a certain person by the name of Hester showed up. Now everyone expects 6 returns for TD's or more. Otherwise you get labeled a bust. But like i said, the kid is having issues, how he gets thru this could make him into a better player, or help him disappear.

 

I didn't say you can't classify him as being in a slump. You can classify these guys in any category, honestly, the thing is in whichever category you slot them in, they are still not getting the job done on Sunday's and something has to change.

I understand now, brother. My bad for the misunderstanding earlier.

 

Hester has never had more than 2 KRs in a year though. And getting two TDs in a year at KR is really good.

In 2008 only 1 person had 2 KRs for a TD.
Amazingly, two guys had 3 in 2007. Two had 2.
2006 two guys had 2.
2005 only one guy had 2 TDs.
2004 one 3, and two with 2.
2003 only two had 2.
2002 only 3 had two.

If Ginn had more than 2 KRs for TDs in a year, he'd be in pretty elite company. He'd be only the 4th guy since 2002 to do it.

Only 12 times in NFL history has 3 or more KRs for TDs happened, and only 6 of them since 1985. The rest were all before 1977.

Hell only 109 players ever have more than 1 KR for a TD (and that's for a career).

 

He was tried at KR and PR his rookie season, then again at KR last year.

Whatever way you spin it, the fact is he's had 2 1/2 years to show something and so far, just drops, cowardly play and alligator arms - 2 returns in which he went completely untouched notwithstanding.

He is the player that he is, nothing is really going to change with him except he might get hot for a game, then disappear like he has countless times before.

Whereas Bess - he's been really good, consistently good, a clutch player able to be relied upon, and is now in a slump - that's the difference.

 

Most KRs for TDs involve a player going untouched.

 

and to say he was untouched is being disingenuous, he wasnt touched, but thats because he side stepped defenders and made them miss.

 

nice numbers Pete, thanks!