He is a player that can't stand contact and has proven to be a Wr who sees ghosts behind him when the ball is in the air. Moving him to the slot would be a disaster.
Ginn had a big effect today. He didn't have any catches but he does still effect the defense by usually drawing the other team's #1 CB and by creating space for our running game. Obviously, he's not good enough and our #1 priority this off season should be to upgrade our receiving options, but there is no doubt that the rest of our offense has more space when he's on the field. I know some people prefer to just focus on what he has done poorly and it's easy b/c there is a lot of it. But he does provide a benefit and the coaches realize this when they watch the tape. I'm sure some will choose to ignore this and just harp on the drops, but the coaches won't. They see the safety slide over or back up a step and that the D crowds the box less when he's on the field. Reality is that we don't have many great receiving options right now and Ginn is one of those poor options. But when he's in there the other receivers and our running game benefit.
fantastic post but dont waste your time. The chuckles gallery cant see it. They are more interested in trashing him then trying to figure out why, if he's so bad, does the coaching staff which didnt draft him start him over receivers they did draft. The offense bogs down when Ginn is out but they just assume its coincidence and when the running game does well while Ginn is in it has nothing to do with it. Its a fantasy football argument not a football argument
The defense of this guy is laughable to me. How many balls need to bounce off both of his hands do we have to see before people stop blindly defending the guy. Posted via Mobile Device
I think I may start that Ronnie is injury prone OMFGlolz thread. Why not? I'll go get my pitchfork and come back in a minute.
The bashing is just as laughable. Who do you want to put in his place? What do we have that is better? Yeah we need WR. We get it. Do we need to bring it up constantly? We have NOTHING at the position. We have a bunch of one-trick ponies. We have 3 guys who can go short and 1 guy who can go long. Only Cam has shown the ability to catch the ball consistently. Ginn sucks. So does Bess. For all the love he gets, Hartline has shown very little. Our problem is this - the guys who can get separation can't catch the ball - the guys who can catch the ball can't get separation. Pick your poison.
heh.....i def. am known to knee jerk in the game threads, iam insane during games. ask enforcer, he probably still has bruises from me punching him in joy after beating the jets on MNF. but one thing i have been viciously consistent on was my negativity towards ginn. i have said and will continue to say he has never been consistent, he never makes the "big catch" he runs horrible routes, he ducks contact, makes dumb decisions, wasnt worth close to his draft pick, isnt worth his contract. he has all-world games last season against buffalo, then disapears for 5 games.....part of it is our offense, most of it is ginn inconsistency. i have no reason to defend him, he plays for the dolphins so ill be happy if he helps us win....but it wont change the fact ill be happier when hes gone from our team......and i dont understand the whole "knee jerk" argument.....this guys been inconsistent for 3 years. and i dont care about your expectations.....he hasnt met MINE. and thats all that matters to me. with all due respect of course. imo.....defenders make silly excuses to defend why he doesnt make a play for example you saying "if hes taller he can make the catch" even though it hit his hands, and he slowed up for it.......why'd he slow up if he had to reach for it? would you not agree there are WRs that make that catch? its not much to ask to see him make that catch SOMETIMES. not everytime....but once in awhile....catch the slant Vs new england, catch the pass against the saints, catch the ball against the colts......all hard catches? yes. all do-able? yes. too much to ask to catch more of those then he drops? no.....not imo. defenders look foolish with their defenses imo. and haters make up reasons to bash him sometimes. regardless......its a message board, i can knee-jerk all i want, iam not a paid journalist.....i am not a paid blogger, and this place would be slow and be bitterly boring if everyone just waited around and supported every single play and every single player till the end of time, regardless of the level of play they show.
The argument that the first pass that Ginn dropped was too high is a little weak in my eyes. He has dropped perfectly thrown balls, and not every ball is going to be thrown perfectly. This ball hit him square in both hands. Nobody was tugging on his arms like the Indy game. He has to make that catch. Bottomline. Yea. The coaching staff does start Ginn over WR they drafted. But they have drafted WR's in the late rounds. Let this staff draft a WR at #9 and see who starts between Ginn and that draft pick. The FO has been addressing the real needs of the team. They will get around to WR and Ginn will not be our #1 WR anymore. Just ask yourself is Ginn a Parcell guy? Right now that answer is no in my mind. Where is the WR coaching staff? To see a player fail to improve over an extended period of time on an aspect that is so key to the position makes we wonder why are we not throwing Ginn roughly 4 million balls a week in practice and making him practice the fundementals. Maybe we are doing that, but his lack of improvement is a bit alarming. I don't hate Ginn; I just get sick of seeing him drop passes week after week. It's like a recurring nightmare. It just gets old to watch after a while.
Some of the defenses for Ginn make me Laugh out loud but what is it going to take for teh Entire Miami dolphins fanbase to admit that Ted Ginn Jr is NOT a football Player he is only going to be useful twice a year against the Jets. He sucks he has done Nothing except return a few Kicks for Tds he had an Ok day reurning kicks last week but this week its the same ol Ginn running away from Contact and running out of bounds this guy sucks.. The Ginn threads are starting to get more annoying then Brett Favre retiring
Henne just needs to be more accurate. I agree, Ted Ginn was not the receiver we had hoped for, but he was brought in to return punts and kickoffs and won that game for us against the Jets....... d-1
He was brought in to be a Number 1 receiver. We drafted him 9th overall. He and Roy Williams should form a club: "Number 1 receivers with oven mitts for hands" I want him gone ASAP this offseason. Vincent Jackson, Lance Moore, hell, Kevin Walter would all punch Ginn's ticket out of town. All are upcoming UFAs.
I think it's pretty apparent that our passing offense works better when Ginn is on the field, but it is equally apparent that it would be working even better if Ginn caught the ball as often as he should. He should realistically have 2, maybe 3 drops on the year, yet he has 6. Aside from the drops there around 3-4 other passes where you would've expected most WRs to catch the ball. I mean, that's at least 6 catches, 85-100+ yards left on the field (and at least 1 score, maybe 2). The other WRs (not named Cam) have been bad at times or even for weeks (IMO) but just talking about catching the ball (not fumbles) they combine for about as many missed plays as Ginn has had (maybe they combine for a little more, but I doubt much). I have 0 doubt saying that Ginn is the most gifted WR we have, but he is playing like he is the 3rd best WR on a team with bad WRs (which we have bad WRs). I am sure he can play better, and I do not think he is afraid of contact or anything like that. I do not think he will turn it around this year (though I hope he does, and think he is capable of it), and I do not know whether he will be here in the future. Like I said, I think the passing offense works better with him on the field, but it would be a lot better if he caught the passes he should. The whole position needs to be upgraded, even if that means bringing in 3 new guys (we wouldn't need to get rid of 3, if we rostered 6). I would think we only bring in 2 WRs personally though. I think we'll get two new TEs to bring in as well. Having a TE that can work the middle of the field could help our WRs a lot.
The Saints game would suggest that even if the pass is accurate Ginn will still fail to catch them. That is the problem. He doesn't catch the ones he should and doesn't catch the tough ones either. I hope he works hard in the offseason to improve his hands and beef up a bit muscle wise. He still looks relatively skinny out there, but maybe his body type just doesn't let him add muscle easily w/o chugging steroids... who knows.
I don't think he needs to or can change his body, but I agree he should be constantly working with the jugs machine.
Remember last year when he ran out of bounds on a 3rd down instead of fighting for the extra yards and Porter jumped his rear? Maybe he isn't afraid of being hit ( he plays special teams, that is ROUGH and Ginn loves it ) but he lacks something. Heart? You have to fight for those extra yards sometimes. I don't remember Ginn almost ever fighting for extra yards if it required for anything other than diving for the sticks to avoid contact. My memory is bad, so that is probably an unfair statement.
Lacking awareness and lacking heart are not the same. I am certain Ginn has heart, however I could definitely see him lacking awareness if someone tried to argue that.
his career at ohio state and the dolphins first two years suggests he catches the easy ones and is going through a major funk right now. if we got rid of every player who went through a bad spell we wouldnt be able to field a darts team having said that, his career also implies that he will always have trouble making the difficult catch which quite frankly is common for the speed guys. we simply cant expect 4.3 guys catching the ball with the same reliability that possession guys do. if you do you will be waiting for that one in ahundred speed guy that has a one way ticket to the hall of fame.
I CAN understand the 'acceptance portion' of his defenders here, that the deadline is gone and he's our best burner option for the rest of the season. It's rational and makes sense. I CANNOT understand how anyone would want him as a part of this team long term beyond this season. The Ginn apologists in that regard show no logic in their sycophant like praise of Ginn, as every ball he drops was Henne's fault.
I understand the frustration with Ginn - and I'm done trying to argue that he is going to ever be productive in the league. We've given him chances and he doesn't seem to be able to get his head on straight. The problem is that our offense still runs better with him dropping passes than without. That is how bad our WR's are. Also somewhat of an oversight by the FO to have 4 possession guys and one speed guy. Ginn being ineffective is similar to if he had been injured - we should have SOME other option available. Instead of picking up all these quick RB's that don't see the field, why not try out some other speed WR's. Wasn't there an Armstrong on the practice squad that flashed ability in training camp? I know I'll get flamed for this - but the reason I keep supporting Ginn is because he is finally getting separation. He seems to finally be understanding the position and what it takes to be successful. The problem is that his hands have suddenly turned to stone. He was never Fitz before, but had decent enough hands. If he had his hands from last year and his knack for getting open this year he would be having a great year. But he hasn't been able to put it all together. Chances are he will go to another team and finally be productive. Take the pressure off, get him on the other team's #2 CB and he will probably put up a few decent years. Unfortunate because everything you hear about the guy he sounds like a stand-up kid. Hate to see those guys fail.
i played football just as many here did. You know as well as I do that moves on the field are often by instinct. My instsinct was to run into people because i didnt have the speed or moves to get around them much like Lex Hilliard or Fasano. Ginn's instinct is to run out of bounds. Its probably what he was taught by his coaches. Mike Martz had no problem with Tory Holt, Issac Bruce and Az Hakim running out of bounds instead of fiighting for extra yards. Its really what kind of receivers do you want for your offense. If you want receivers to get hit, bring in bigger receivers like turner or tinier ones like bess. if you want home run speed then you trade in the hits for the strikes
Lol. Why do you quote me and then argue a point a never made? I said this offseason (aka don't 'get rid of him') he should work on his hands. So prez was the first pass of the game yesterday considered a tough catch? I think even a speed guy has to come down with that. What was so tough about that catch? He had to jump? Maybe Ginn does catch the easy one most of the time ( not currently). But is that really were we are now? Because catching the easy ones most of time causes a short career in the NFL as a WR.
Although I still would like to see him as a long-term part of the team (I think if he weren't in the spotlight and we had a big-time playmaker across from him he would finally calm down and play within himself) I agree on defending the drops. Individually you can defend each drop, but collectively you have to look at the big picture and say he needs to come up with those. There is no excuse. I think the problem with the "Ginn apologists" such as myself is that he HAS made those catches before. If you watch some of those highlight videos you seem him go up in traffic or take big hits and come down with the ball. The problem was always that he couldn't get open. Even those most frustrated with Ginn have to see huge improvements in his ability to get open this year. If Ginn were simply not getting open I would have written him off - but since his problems have completely flip-flopped - I am still holding out hope he will turn it around.
I don't have a problem with a WR running out of bounds most of the time. It's running out of bounds EVERY time even when you need two more yards for a BIG first down to ice the game away for your team. But to be fair that is last years play. I just haven't seen anything this year to suggest that has changed.
Also adamprez, does this FO bring Ginn back/resign him after his contract is up and why? I think he doesn't comeback. I don't think he fits our offensive system with Parcells + company. He isn't a great blocker, he doesn't have great hands. Maybe we can trade him to where Mike Martz is the OC at
sorry. sometimes i argue against the posters that want him cut. no i agree that its disappointing that any pass that makes Ginn leave his feet is basically a pass that will probably hit the turf. his ability to leap and catch is something that resembles special olympics at this stage. But speed is speed and he has his uses. our expectations need to change regarding him. i think we flat out need to understand that his use right now is the occasional big play. we cant get upset every time there is a jump ball and he drops it. its pointless at this stage. i think drops like in the new orleans game can upset us because even by these standards he should make those catches. still, he's the only receiver we have that can get behind any cornerback in the league. that has a value beyond actual personal production. that helps the entire team and is the reason our coaching staff refuses to bench him. think about it, our coaches arent morons. there is a reason he started over our other receivers i'm all for adding a playmaker (assuming turner isnt it) . we have our possession guy (camarillo). i'm even for upgrading our slot (bess) or speed (ginn) guys. what i'm one hundred percent against is getting rid of a 4.3 guy and replacing him with a 4.5 or 4.6 guy. we have those and dont need another. if we're going to bring a playmaking receiver who runs a 4.5 the ginn has to stay and we need to cut one of the other receivers. if we want to get rid of ginn then we have to find a receiver who has his speed
There's a lot of time before one would have to worry about that, frankly I think the discussion is irrelevant at this point.
thats a great point. we have him for next year and he needs to be the personal project of whoever our receivers coach is (Dorell is someone i would dump and not just because of ginn but because of how poorly everyone has played) ultimately we have to figure out if we know how to use him in our system. he may be better suited for a martz or colts style offense. if we arent going to use him effectively we should let him go when the time is right or even trade him next year but we cant go back to having Booker, Chambers and Hagan because that kind of lack of speed kills passing games worse than drops ever will
Agreed. Ginn's trade value is pretty much zero, and cutting him is a huge cap hit - so keeping him on the team and hoping he turns it around is still pretty much our only option. If he is going to be this pathetic in the passing game I'd like to see him get back on punts. Bess is horrible (I think his career long return is 27 yards or something?). I understand if he was back there for his hands - but he has dropped quite a few now. Let's put Ginn back there and maximize his value. Bess had a redemption game at WR - lets let him focus on that.
although its tough, please dont give up stating what needs to be stated. I realize the five or seven of us that keep stating the obvious are fighting a battle similar to the 300 against the Persian hordes but just keep at it. The coaching staff basically validated what we've been saying by starting him yesterday. I dont know if its this year but if Ginn ever calms down he'll put up the numbers we all know he can. Right now he's just pressing and his fundamentals are all out of whack.
No problem. I do that too. I tend to address multiple posts in one reply it just run together. I agree. We need Ginn right now. He does provide a deep threat that nobody else on our roster can. I completely understand and agree that our coaching staff has him in there for a reason. Ginn does bring positives to the lineup. Keeping a safety back etc. It just is so hard to watch him drop pass after pass. Big picture, I think we all pretty much agree that Ginn isn't a #1 WR and we will have to address that position in the offseason. So it is weird how heated the discussion get over Ginn.
It's just a discussion. It may be irrelevant currently, but I would still like to have it if that would be okay.
that is absolutely what kills me. he couldnt get open the first two years and now he's getting open deep several times a game. and so what happens, all of a sudden he develops a case of the drops. he NEVER had them before. I have the same feeling that if he had this problem before I would bhe writing him off by now but its just so weird that my feeling is simply you have to play through it and wait for his hands to return. whats crazy is that he simply has no luck either. he makes up for the tough drop (dont think it was hands but rather his mistiming his jump. seemed it hit his fingertips to me but i could be wrong) by making an amazing catzh on the sideline but as luck would have it he cant get his second foot down. he's just going through a black period right now and i hope he doesnt give up
His contract isn't up until the end of 2011. There are so many things that could happen between now and then that I think discussing our offseason moves of 2012 are irrelevant at this point, I'm sorry.
AGREED! Couldn't agree more. Could you imagine Ginn in an offense like Arizona? A pass heavy offense where he wouldn't have to be a #1 or #2 guy anytime soon.
Unless he really, REALLY turns it around I don't think he'll be back with the Phins. I would be pretty surprised if he makes it through this offseason with the Phins. A lot depends on what kind of replacements we can get in. If we somehow get a BIG TIME WR, Ginn's value goes way up. If we sign a few players that all provide some consistency and playmaking ability then Ginn will definitely be gone - as he isn't worth the roster spot with multiple others providing value. I hope we find a way to get the big-time player and not 2-3 mid-tier guys.
i wish the debates were like this without any of the over the top hyperbole. i agree that he isnt a number 1 and we have to find somebody who is. doesnt mean we have to get rid of him but it also doesnt mean we have to keep him either. up to the coaches. my theory on why this discussion is so heated is we got rid of all the real bums. the people we are ripping on now all bring some positives to the table (gibril can hit but is aliability in pass, crowder and ayodele are good vs run but poor vs pass, ginn stretches the field but is having a problem with his hands, etc) guess its a good sign of the progress we made that we have to attack players with redeeming value to the team. people need to attack players for some reason to explain why the team isnt super bowl bound. we no longer have eric greens and john becks to blame so its on to the next level of player trust me next year we will find some other players to rip and they will probably be even better then these. i could see us ripping on vernon carey next year
