I was and am a huge Lex Hilliard fan. I wrote in my draft analysis that he reminded me of Csonka in his running style. I dont expect him to have the production of Csonka (hell I dont think Csonka would have his production today) but I do expect him to be effective if used correctly. He has limited running skills but they can be effective. He is basically a one cut runner but he did show a nice little move on one of his runs about eight yards down the field. If we can get him ten to twelve touches that should be just enough to rest Ricky and wear on the defense. I think he has skills, its just a matter of finding out how many
Holy wildly inappropriate condescension Batman! You're running with stuff that isn't true, but it seems logical enough given faulty height/weight analysis. The issue is Cobbs HAS shown he can run in the middle., as much as we can say so from the amount of carries he's had. Sticking with the idea he's 205 pounds ain't exactly a particularly good one either, because Cobbs is essentially the same height/weight as Maurice Jones-Drew, who ain't exactly a slouch in the power department. I don't think Boomer is far off with the Hilliard/Cobbs comparisons. Cobbs has quite a bit more utility is all.
They wouldn't have been wrong, but unless they had something tangible and well argued to base it on, it means sweet **** all.
Oh dear, schooling time. Miami has two players for each position. Ricky is Ronnie's second, Hilliard is Cobb's. It has absolutely nothing to do with size or shape or how fast they run. It's about what they do for the team. When Ronnie goes down, Ricky steps up and there is expected to be no drop off in talent or in the way the offense runs. Same for when Cobbs goes down. Pat is a back who Miami believe could carry the load if the need came. There are people who - misguidedly at the moment - believe Hilliard could do the same. There is also no coincidence that both are outstanding special teams players and that since Cobbs went down, Hilliard's ST game has stepped up. Both can block, both have good hands, both can run well, between the tackles and both have experience in the Wildcat, Cobbs on games, Hilliard in practice to the extent of putting the ball in the air. Both had experience catching the ball in college, hence why they're both used in the pass game. So whilst you sit there with your misguided opinion that 'similar players' means that they have to look and weigh the same, the game is actually a little bit more different than that. So please, study the game and the Dolphins and how the coaching staff and front office work before running your mouth.
I didn't say any of that, but well done for making up a story. Making excuses for the plays he made? Are you ten years old? You keep going trying to annoint him as the next big thing based on 4 carries and a catch. History is littered with running backs who never made it. When Tshimanga Biakabatuka rattled off 19 yards on his first carry as a pro, you think Panther fans thought he was the next best thing? Or when Blair Thomas had 100 yards in his 4th game as a Jet or when Curtis Enis had 12 carries at almost 7 yards a pop in his first game. I'll retain judgement until he's played more than 5 snaps. As I said previously, if he was that good, he would have played more before Carolina when Cobbs got hurt, especially given our offensive diversity.
Yeah, but he does get low to take on tacklers. But, the tall running style always begs the question of what happens when there is a defender you don't see? He's a one cut runner, but he has enough skill to help the running game. I would use a good number of draws and delays with Lex. Let him have that straight shot up the field.
Dude, I think you're way ahead of yourself on both counts. Hilliard as Jamal Lewis? Wake was an undrafted FA cut by the Giants and there was a reason for that. Can he run the arc and turn the corner? Yep. Can he pressure a QB? Yep. But can he drop back in coverage? Man cover a tight end? Can he slip into a zone. Can he backpedal? OK so not every 1st round OLB/DE can do that, but the majority can play the run. Can he? No. I think revisionist history is great as are rose tinted glasses, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Next thing we know, Patrick Turner will be the next Jerry Rice without ever having caught a ball.
Yeah, I think he gets to that hole and he's very high. Makes him easier to hit between the tackles. Of course, he has a propensity for making players bounce off him, but the more carries he registers and the more film that teams have on him, that style will play against him. I certainly think he has the requisite talent to be a decent contributor here, especially on plays designed to maximise his ability.
That's not what I meant - he allows contact to be initiated by having a more upright style. When he initiates contact, he lowers his frame
When I watch Hilliard run I fully believe that his greatest test will be taking a lot of carries and not fumbling the ball. If he can hang onto the ball then he'll be fine. As for Cameron Wake, he's one of the most efficient and effective pass rushers in football. Give the man a break. All this talk about he can't do this, he can't do that, blah blah blah. How long was it before Dwight Freeney met a running play that he liked? How long before Mathis did? I don't even see how we can "know" what the man can and can't do in that regard when he's not being asked to do it. He's dropped back into coverage all of once this season. One time. As for his play against the run, I've watched as much tape as anyone, more than most, and I say the man has shown potential in that area. You don't just become a pass rusher as unbelievably effective as he is without having any strength or athletic skill that could translate to running plays.
I like Wake, don't get me wrong. He's a constant threat off the corner and I'm not denigrating that ability on any level. I just find it a little tough to swallow that all of a sudden we have a couple of young players with upside on our roster and we're trumpeting like legitimate NFL tailbacks such as Lewis, Turner et al or first round ends. As for the Freeney comparison, as you know well, both he and Mathis are tasked with certain roles; it's why they rush upfield on about 98% of all snaps. Wake is a here to be a 3-4 OLB which comes with a whole barrowload of different responsibilities which he's not yet shown he's ready for fully. Has he shown potential? Yep. My beef is more that we are a little more realistic with our analysisn rather than any knock on the talents of Wake and Hilliard. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Cobbs went down in week five yet his supposed backup doesn't get into the game as a running back until week 11. The very next week after we lose Ronnie Brown for the season. If Hilliard is so similar to Cobbs and does all the same things why haven't we seen him since week six. Easy answer. Hilliard is a power back and not a third down type back. How many times can you honestly say you have seen Cobbs go up the middle yet you say he can. I never see it because it doesn't happen. Hilliard is not geared to catch passes on third down. You seem to think because they are both running backs they are the same player. Their differences are right in front of your face. Take off the blinders and you will see it. The only similarities between these two are what Sparano said in camp. "They are very much alike because they both get after it" That is where the similarities end.
I agree that it's silly to start throwing around names where it concerns Lex Hilliard. However, it is not silly to do so with Cameron Wake. Within a year he'll be known as one of the premier pass rushers in all of football. He's not just an edge rusher. That's his best move, but not his only one. He can get to the QB out of a two point stance, I've seen him do it. He can bend the arc as well as anyone out there save maybe Demarcus Ware and Dwight Freeney. He throws in counter moves off that ability, which is absolutely what you should do. If you've got 100 mph fast ball, you don't throw a bunch of curve balls all day long. He has the core strength to walk tackles straight back into the QB when they give his speed too much respect. I don't care what anyone thinks this defense will ask him to do and whether he can do it. You fit the scheme to the players, not the other way around. When you have pass rush ability that special, you fit the scheme and responsibilities around that ability. You don't have to completely change everything you do. Is his coverage any good? Who knows. Wake has only been asked to do it once this year. You want to talk about an issue that's being overplayed on the air waves, look no further. Last year Joey Porter dropped back into coverage 94 times and pass rushed 567 times. And he sure as hell wasn't asked to do much against the run. Someone going to tell me Cameron Wake can't be trusted at a position where you drop back into coverage only 86% of pass attempts? And those percentages aren't even that unusual for the best pass rusher among 3-4 OLBs. Demarcus Ware pass rushed on 83% of the pass attempts in 2008. That's up to 86% this year. Heck, Joey Porter is as one-dimensional that way as ever this year, pass rushing on 84% of pass attempts. Elvis Dumervil pass rushes 86% of the time. The mistake with Cameron Wake IMO is pegging this guy into a certain role and assuming that's all he can do. The guy doesn't land at the quarterback's hip by accident. He's got athleticism, strength, hand use, balance and explosion. Those things translate all kinds of different ways, which is why he's a standout special teams performer. And you know what? From what I've seen, he retraces off his speed rush really well when the play turns out to be a run. We've seen next to nothing from Lex Hilliard and so I can understand not wanting to get ahead of ourselves with him. But with Cam Wake, game after game he's been showing us tremendous pass rush ability in a variety of ways and after 100 snaps, not to mention the work he did in Canada (which MUST be taken account of, especially in light of what he's done in the NFL in those 100 snaps), no I do not feel it's all that premature to be pretty sure the Dolphins got a guy that could go to the Pro Bowl in 2010. He could have made a Pro Bowl run in 2009 if we'd used him more, to be honest.
I disagree. Turner is too tall to be like Rice. I agree with what you're saying, but I also see enough similarity to Jamal'splay and intensity level to feel strongly that Lex can be an impact player in the NFL. Posted via Mobile Device
Lex doesn't have Jamal Lewis' straight up physical ability. Lewis had a LOT of speed to go with that huge body of his. That speed's come down but it's still speed that Hilliard never had.
Well, he's only had 4 carries, so I wouldn't go annouting him as the next upright runner just yet. Posted via Mobile Device
He doesn't have the top end speed of Lewis, but his acceleration through a hole and into the 2nd level is as quick. Posted via Mobile Device
Wake forklifted Kirk Chambers in the first Bills game. And Jeff Otah is not a man I think gets walked backward very often. I couldn't have been more impressed with the job he did against Otah. I know Boomer came away from the game disappointed with Otah's progress but I think if you would have checked up on him in literally any other game in his rookie year or this year in which he wasn't facing Cameron Wake...you'd see a different Jeff Otah. He was EXCELLENT in 2008. I'm pretty sure he's been good this year too. According to Pro Football Focus, Jason Taylor pass rushed from the left side (Cameron Wake's side) like 18 times during the game. That's over Jeff Otah. I don't know how successful he was in those attempts but I do know that Taylor was statistically blanked during the game. It looks like Porter, Roth and Taylor pass rushed from the left side something like 27 times in the game. All I know is Wake rushed exclusively over Jeff Otah on his 9 pass rushes. He got 1 QB Sack, 1 QB Hit and 3 QB Pressures. Also according to PFF, Otah allowed 1 QB Sack, 1 QB Hit and 4 QB Pressures. Simple deduction says that on the 9 occasions Otah had to pass block Cameron Wake, he let Wake in on his QB 4 timess. On the other 38 occasions when he pass blocked Jason Taylor, Joey Porter, Matt Roth and whoever else, he let his man in on the QB only once. That doesn't look to me like Jeff Otah training on poorly. That looks to me like Cameron Wake being that good.
One thing I do know- is we should keep an on-going total of how many people Lex trucks, bc that number should be increasing weekly. Posted via Mobile Device
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0ihFFATuF8"]YouTube- Cameron Wake - 3 Sacks vs Bills - 2009 Week 3[/ame]
Thanks for digging up the stats, Ck. This is when I like using stats b/c in this case they are only verifying what we believe our eyes already see. I was in a PACKED Carolina Ale House in Raleigh watching the game. When Wake bull-rushed Otah back into Delhomme, I think there were like 50 sets of eyes suddenly frowning at me b/c I got uncontrollably LOUD! Cam pushed Jeff back like he was making a statement that Otah was his bitc#..... like Cam was the one with the 80lb weight advantage. You're previous couple posts basically summed everything up. He's a beast, and I 100% agree that we should be trying to fit our D to him and not the other way around. How bad would it be to switch to a 4-3 and let Cam, Matt, JT, and Merling play end..... with Phil also playing inside on passing downs, leaving a healthy Tackle rotation of Starks, Lankford, Soliai, and McDaniel?
If we extrapolate Wake's stats from his 100 plays to the 555 that JT has seen, then Cam's totals would still only look like this: Sacks....Hits......Pressures.....Tkls.....Stops.....FF ..33.......17...........83...........89........39........6 Not too shabby for 10 games. _____________________________________________________________________________ Wakes totals might seem like a lot, but they really aren't when compared to JT's 555 play totals: Sacks....Hits......Pressures.....Tkls.....Stops.....FF ...6........4...........13.............25........13........2
There is a difference in being active for games and not being able to see the field due to the two great players in front of you and being the second back now. Cobbs wasn't taking carries away from either player. Cobbs had 6 carries over 5 games for 36 yards. http://www.nfl.com/players/patrickcobbs/gamelogs?id=COB753658 Hilliard is in the games as a runner now due to injury, if not for Brown's injury he would likely not see time other than special teams, in much the same way as Cobbs, who only had 1 tackle. And, by the way, Lex has appeared in every game this season and has 9 tackles on special teams. Hilliard has seen the field all season long, he only carried the ball in this last game. http://www.nfl.com/players/lexhilliard/gamelogs?id=HIL720361 If you look a little deeper, you'll also notice that Hilliard has 2 receptions compared to Cobb's 3 receptions.
Regarding Wake's 1st sack in the Bills game: the difference with Wake and a guy like Larry English is when Cam runs the arc and blows by a tackle, he can virtually stop on a dime and redirect to still make a play if he's gone too deep into the backfield.... where as 1st round pick English will have over run the play.
i'm of the belief that if we build a proper o-line, we shouldn't have to grab first-round talent at RB to have a successful ground game. there is a large portion of good or great runners in this league that were not highest-round talent. i'd be more inclined to spent those first few picks on a WR, LB, or some other offensive playmaker.... we need more playmakers on the field offensively at the same time. Ronnie will be back next year, as will ricky. so will cobbs. yes, we still need to examine this position for the future, but this next draft? i think WR and LB alone are bigger priorities, and that's not even looking at other positions. we've lost two RB's this year, but that is bad luck, not necessarily par for the course.... this could happen any year, and having newer/higher drafted RBs on the roster won't necessarily change that possibility.
Congratulations for continuing to ignore the obvious and for essentially making my point for me. As for Cobbs, the answer would be: in college and for Miami.
Depends, if the game is close Ricky will have the ball in his hands, if we get a lead we saw more Lexxy. There are some things to like about Hillard, forward body lean, decisive runner, decent hands doesn't avoid contact and good power always bending forwards. However he almost had a Fasano v Atlanta style fumble v the Panthers.
It has to be factored in though Ck, as you well know I'm a Cameron Wake Homer, right now he is our best passrushing DE by far, moving forwards will he be able to make the transition to stand up OLB? Sparano and DC Pasqualoni are not going to dump the 3-4 simply because of Cameron Wake (though with Fergie out they should think about it), they have their system and a player has to fit into that system. That is "why" Wake is excellent trade bait imho.
Me likey these traits very much!! Add his intensity level..... dude plays like he was given a shot of adrenaline prior to the game, which is one of the reasons I compare him to Lewis. That's something you can't teach, and not many guys can bring it like that while still playing "controlled" ball IMO. Am I wrong? Scary, yes..... but he didn't give the ball up his last 2 years of college (albeit vs poorer competition). Analysts did point out that he has very big, strong hands, strong arms, and good hand eye coordination..... so hopefully that scare was a rare occasion.
Once again you have proven nothing with your comparison except for that Cobbs and Hilliard are both running backs. I'm still waiting for you to tell me why Hilliard hits the field at running back when Ronnie Brown goes down but didn't play when Cobbs went down. If he is the same exact back I would expect him to step right in for Patrick. Hell nevermind, you don't have to answer. It will just be some spin about how Hilliard isn't good enough.
I wouldn't trade Cameron Wake for all the whiskey in Ireland. I think that's nuts. You pull in a player like him on a three-year deal paying him peanuts and you go and trade him? Again, you don't have to scrap an entire defense for the guy. That's a bad assumption. When you say that, you're assuming that you already know what he's not good at and that's a bad assumption right off the bat because he hasn't had but a few opportunities to show what he might have to offer in multiple roles. You're also assuming that he can't GET to where he needs to be either this season as he keeps training on, or in camp next year. Also a bad assumption. And lastly, you're assuming that the defense has to make some kind of wholesale change in order to incorporate the man as he stands. A third bad assumption. Joey Porter rushed the passer 86% of the time last year when the QB dropped back to pass. Other pass rushers like Elvis Dumervil and Demarcus Ware regularly do the same. You gonna tell me Wake can't be trusted to cover as well as Joey Porter (which is to say not particularly well) on 14% of pass drops? Seriously? That's what we're saying? Look at the numbers that ToddPhins projected. Those aren't right. We all know it. But the sheer MAGNITUDE of them, right or wrong, TELLS us something. That's for 10 games. You know what they would be for 16 games? 53 QB Sacks, 27 QB Hits, 133 QB Pressures, 142 Tackles, 62 Stops, 10 Forced Fumbles. Would he come even close to that? Hell no. Not even remotely. But the sheer ridiculousness of the projections tells you...get this guy on the field. Stop twisting nipples about oh he needs to be better at this, he needs to do better at that, this isn't the right defense for him, blah blah blah. This is football, not rocket science. And for heaven's sake, don't TRADE a find of this magnitude when we haven't even begun to reap the benefits we could off him. Never do something that has the legitimate potential to end up going down as another Wes Welker trade.
That's alot of Irish Whiskey though... Elvis has successfuly transitioned to OLB, Robert Ayers, the #18 overall has not been activated for a week. Meaning, those positional changes do not always pan out, I also believe that Sparano and Co demands a player do things exactly the way they want them to do things, Wake right now is playing to his strength as OLB Coach Reid has said "we took him out of a 2pt stance and put him into a comfortable one, whatever he is comfortable with doing" A 4pt stance, Wake has trained himself (imho) to play DE, he has had massive success playing DE, asking him to play OLB fulltime could be as hard as training oneself to use your left hand after using your right hand. Aaron Kampman was having the same positional switching problems as well, before he tore his ACL. 8 games, more like 7 games, he was inactive in the first two games, or only played Special Teams, he got his first run in SD and that was for a handful of plays. And oh yes, I completely agree, he came from the CFL with the "athletic freak" tag and has lived up to it, however he is doing the same thing he did in the CFL, stone cold beast of a passrushing DE in a 4-3, he hasn't grown in that sense. He does though Ck, otherwise he will be a ST and nickel rusher..only. Possibly, internet trade suggestions are a dime o dozen though, take mine with a grain of salt and theoritical tag attached to it, if what happens this offseason that I think will happen, mainly Sparano gets "his" OLB corps installed, Wake will have his chance to play OLB. He doesn't flip his hips or change directions very well though, I watched every CFL highlight reel of Wake in BC, 07 and 08, Cam in space is not pretty.
Well, one is not "wrong" anymore than I am "right" I do think Hillard can be Mr. Inside to Ricky's Mr Outside, guys who run with good body lean and power just are made to run between the tackles and just pound on people. A less loft comparison would be Mosi Tatupu from the early and mid 80s Patsies teams. Imho Ricky's ceiling is around 20 carries, Hillard will see some touches, as will Sheets. Lexxy is one of the Rb's that will be submarined tackled, he coughed up the ball in the preseason when such a tackle caught him by surprise, that is something that Rb Coach Saxon will have to "clean up".
I love this picture of Wake, because when you can run almost parallel to teh ground... This is the result
