consistency is really the correct argument when faulting Ginn. I dont think the others fly because he's shown hands, he's shown the ability to get open.....just not consistently enough together. but he seems to have put together a nice error free run of five or six games. hopefullyit carries into next season
There is no one on our roster that can replace Ginn. That is what PhiNomina is trying to say. And what we as a whole are trying to say is, there is nothing you can complaing about when it comes to Ginn. He has played solid football in the last month. He isn't lighting the world on fire. But when the ball is thrown his way, he catches the ball. Now, he is getting more playing time, and coming down with more catches and being more productive.
What you're not seeing is that while I may or may not exaggerate a player's numbers (May or MAY NOT - I'm not admitting **** ) for effect, I never call out anyone for having an opinion of a player or the team.
And neither have I. I have only defended myself when someone makes a disparaging remark about supporting Ginn. I guess my point is that I will have a conversation about Ginn and his skills and his limitations, but when you say the "7-to-1" and 2socks line about a "good" game come into play - it isn't having a conversation it is more or less just mindless bashing for the sake of bashing. I know from your other posts that you normally promote conversation and try to add a different view or statistical evidence of your opinion - which I guess is what I am looking for - What about this last game (and the past 4 weeks) has made you think that it was worth this much effort to disparage his performance this week?
My criticism of Ginn isn't based solely on any one - or even a couple - parts of his game. It's the things he does wrong in the context of the whole. In other words: its not the drops - every player has drops, some more than most; it's not the alligator-arms, or the cringing and going to the turf before contact; it's not the going out of bounds when he has room to run; it's not his lack of awareness of his position on the field in relation to the down marker; it's not the fact that he has cost us $2,125,000 per touchdown, (NOT an exaggeration) and takes up cap space and roster space that we could be using to develop players who will be here after this season; it's not the fact that he simply has never been suited to being a solid Receiver in the pros because of his size... It is the combination of all those things. And that combination - not any one thing - is why when he does crouch down onto his butt before even being touched on returns, as he did at least once Sunday, it infuriates me.
surely if he was as bad as you say he would be out of the league already. regardless of salary cap hit noone as bad as the person you just described would be on a NFL roster. also i fail to see who kept us from developing....brandon london?
He had a nice game.........he now has a handful of nice games in 3 years. Woo Hoo! And this thread continues to serve it's original purpose......oh wait that's right, you guys wouldn't just create a thread to call out Ginn bashers, silly me
Those points are well taken and definitely have been an issue this year. I won't deny he has had a fairly horrendous year. You have obviously given up on him and I can understand why. The reason I have not is because a lot of what we complained about with Ginn before this year (his inability to get separation, his lack of awareness on the field) seems to have been fixed. He is finally playing like a WR in terms of running routes and getting open. If you go watch that horrendous stretch of games he had the drops - he was wide open consistently. This was before his drops so it isn't like the DB's were leaving him wide open because they weren't scared of him catching it. He also hauled in a few of those sideline catches in the last 4 weeks that show he is learning how to know his location on the field. 71.4% of his receptions have been for first downs (top 25 in NFL), which means he is learning how to move the chains. But the mental aspect of his game has fallen apart. The drops, the timid play. These were never an issue before - sure he was never a PHYSICAL player - but we never saw him cower from contact like we have this year. Same with his hands - he wasn't Jerry Rice, but they weren't an issue. I feel that since his major issues this year are issues that weren't here in the past, there is a good chance they can be corrected and he could finally put together a pretty decent career. Could I be wrong? Maybe (probably) - but I see enough to get me excited. (Side note - Hartline is catching 82% of his receptions for first downs! Good for 3rd in NFL. I couldn't find Bess, who is often cited as being a first down machine. I used stats from nationalpost.stats.com - not sure if this is a legitimate site.)
That's just not true, in fact it's what he's most famous for. Being timid has literally defined his entire NFL career thus far. I will say tho, he has made a couple of catches in recent weeks that shocked me. I didn't think he had it in him.... As far as his future here, I think we're stuck with him to due to his contract. If that's the case then they need to get him to renegotiate in the off season.
He'll never renegotiate - why would he? Has Jason Allen? And if he renegotiates, then Hartline is due a raise, as is Bess and Donald Thomas. Contracts go both ways. Also - I realize Ginn has never been physical - but I don't think it has been an issue before this year. At least not to the extent it is this year. If you go to youtube and watch one of his highlight videos here in Miami - he has taken quite a few big shots. I can remember the Buffalo game and Jets games as examples where he got his clock cleaned and held on to the ball. I just don't think his head is in it right now.
Because he'll be in year 4 of a 5 year contract and it's quite common for a player to renegotiate towards the end of his contract, to help the team manage the cap and bring in more talent.
It is common for players who have established themselves and are not worried about job security to do this. Players that are obviously fighting for their starting job / roster spot are not going to make their contracts easier to terminate. If Ginn renegotiated, where would you advise we spend the money? Because a lot of people would say WR - meaning you want him to take a pay cut so they can go find his replacement. I would love for it to happen - but look at it from his view and tell me why he would do it.
Not necessarily; cutting London cost nothing, cutting Ginn would have accelerated about $8.4M into this year's cap. We have been stuck with Ginn since he got that $14M signing bonus, which amortizes about $2.8M into every year until 2011. And don't call me Shirley.
He was open more; I saw lots of times when he was blanketed by a single DB, though. That shouldn't happen to a guy with Ginn's speed, who has the advantage over the DB of knowing where he's going. Bess has 44 1st downs through today; an improvement over 29 last season. How does that compare to Hartline's number? Ginn has 25, BTW; down from 36 last season. (because I know it'll come up) edit: Hartline has 24 through today.
It is an improvement in %, as it went from 64% to 71%. The disparity in FD's can be attributed to disparity in catches. Bess also improved on his FD% from last year, going from 53.7% to 61.9%.
He might do it just to be a team player and show he wants to keep his job, in Miami. That and for more cash up front.... I honestly don't think it's that far fetched.......in fact if we do keep him next year, I'd be surprised if our FO doesn't at least try to redo his contract.
Where do you get this information. How do you watch him? Do you go to every game or have a special camera angle or something no one else has, because after the first 5 yards the routes are not shown, at least not on my TV. Your claim Ginn "is finally playing like a WR" is out of like for the player not because his skills have finally arrived. Snail Mail. LOL
Obviously I can't quantify his ability to get open, just like you can't do it for your claims about him playing scared and avoiding contact. I'm really just asking you take a step back from your frustration with the player and look at what he has done on the field. I think a lot of people would back up the claim he is finally getting separation - the last two years he wouldn't have been open enough times to have all those drops he has this year In all seriousness, though - go back and watch the Indy game or any of the games the last 5-6 weeks. He has been creating separation, getting first downs, using the sidelines and playing like a real-life WR. I'll agree with Nabo that he needs to be doing it more often and become more consistent, but as our weakest position and one that we lack anyone else with the speed he brings, I am excited that his game seems to be rounding out.
I think your contract numbers are off. His total contract was for $14 million - not the signing bonus. I believe that his bonus is worth $1.9 million per year (not sure since the last year, 2012, is voidable). If we were to cut him today we would only have to pay the signing bonus of $5.7 million. His base salary this year was $677k and next year will be $1.035 million. His cap hit next year should be around $2.9 million (base salary plus signing bonus).
IMO Ginn can be a serviceable and effective weapon if he's used correctly. If we can get a true #1 WR on the other side and have Ginn on the other team's #2 CB and then have him run about 2/3 of the route tree, he can be a lethal weapon. I envision him running the hitch, ins and outs, drags, streaks and posts. He does a good job catching low passes into his body and long passes where he's behind the D. He's not good at fighting for the ball (generally, he did win that one jump ball against Houston) or at high passes. I see him as part of a rotation at #2 with Hartline and/or Cam.
I agree, although I'm not sure this regime will give him another shot for us to find out. I'd love for them to find a WR he can compliment instead of finding his replacement. He showed Sunday that he is still the only deep threat on this team, even if that threat is only rare.
I'm not sure. While I see him as replaceable, I wouldn't throw him away. I believe that the team feels at least that about him. And I wouldn't be surprised if they actually feel even better about him than that. My guess is that he will be back next year and it wouldn't surprise me if he were re-signed after that.