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Vontae Davis was the worst Cb in the AFCE

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Jan 9, 2010.

  1. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    I'm just posting the stats don't attack me...you figure it out for yourself
     
  2. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I'm not attacking you :lol: I'm just posing a question that happens to be based off the stats you provided, for anyone to answer.
     
  3. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    Do you have a link? Most teams stopped listing "Hurries" as they were called. I considered it a importnat stat.
     
  4. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    Profootballfocus.com
    you have to do some searching once you get there

    Click on the top where it says team
    then choose which team you want to research
    then click on defense and you will see the stats you desire
    Go through the same process for each individual team as they don't have a list for the whole NFL

    If you need more help PM me
     
  5. Skeet84

    Skeet84 New Member

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    Lead team in INT's and was a beast in run support. You take the good with the bad
     
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  6. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    1st question
    How many people did we have to bring to get that kind of pressure...

    2nd question
    Also how many of those times did we hit the QB after he stepped into his throw, a step and a half too late

    Another question that would be best if you figured out the answer and let us know
     
  7. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Sean Smith is a better cover CB.
    Vontae is more of a ball hawk.
     
  8. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I'm confused where you're going with this.

    They are legitimate questions. Unfortunately I dont have the tape or time to figure them out.
     
  9. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I prefer the way PFF grades them. The flaw in the way they rate the corners in the original post link is it only takes into consideration the plays where a pass is actually thrown in the defender's direction. It does not show the number of plays where the defender had blanket coverage and the QB decided to throw elsewhere.

    According to PFF, the idea that Davis is the worst CB in the AFCE is total bunk. Looking at their rankings, worse AFCE corners would include Sean Smith, Shawn Springs, Dwight Lowery, Nathan Jones, Lito Sheppard, Darius Butler, Jonathan Wilhite, Terrence McGee, Drayton Florence, Reggie Corner.

    AFCE corners graded higher than Davis were Darrell Revis, Leigh Bodden and Will Allen.
     
  10. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

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    One of the Best posts I have read in a while. When you get done I would absolutely love to see a Thread where you dissect what happened to our secondary :up:
     
  11. bluehaze

    bluehaze New Member

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    Vontae reminds me alot of Madison in his prime...Wows you on one play then WTF's you on the next one :lol: He's still a rookie though so he get's a free pass for awhile. All things considered I think he's doing pretty good as long as he keeps progressing next year he will be a nice asset to the team.
     
  12. MaddMatt

    MaddMatt New Member

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    I like PFF as well, they give a good overall picture. There is no way you can give a perfect ranking.

    You would have to consider the QB, how much time the OL gives him, who the WR was, if there was double coverage, the number of safe short passes, the amount of prevent D, and even weather conditions.

    Makes my head hurt just typing it. LOL
     
  13. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    Yes he did get burned but he also came away with 4 picks which is 4 more than smith had.
     
  14. LikeUntoGod

    LikeUntoGod Season Ticket Holder

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    Thanks bro, I know the site but did not look there (by team).

    For those asking, it breaks down by player.

    QB sacks
    QB hits
    QB pressures
    Passes batted down

    Tackles missed is interesting. Our "leaders" are:

    Crowder 10
    Ayodele 10
    Wilson 9
    Smith 8
    Davis 6
     
  15. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Although I didn't read the whole thread I can tell you in defense of Vonte Davis that half of the plays we "think" he got burned on were more of a lack of over the top help and just plain old blown coverage from our SS and FS.

    Put a Ed Reed in our backfield and we are instantly a top 10 D
     
  16. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    We were 3rd in the NFL in sacks. lack of pressure? :confused2:
     
  17. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    We were great on converting 3rd downs, no need for a big play guy?
     
  18. Crappy Tipper

    Crappy Tipper AKA Hero13

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    We were inconsistent and when we really needed the heavey pressure or sack late too often they weren't there.

    They were "feast or famine". They came in bunches or none at all.
     
  19. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Problem is those questions can be asked by any team with bad CBs. The results are what they are. Sean Smith did ok with the same front line. Vontae's has big play capability but it's not the INT every four games we need (they do help). It's the routine pass play we need defended every game.
     
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  20. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I dont think that makes them any less valid. It's easy to say a player got beat, let's replace him. That doesn't mean he is the problem though.

    I'm not saying he didnt get beat a few times, he did. Like those big plays against Moss and Owens. But I'm willing to say he wasn't anywhere near the worst corner in the AFC East, regardless of stats.

    I really don't like defensive stats like this in general. Its really viewing something in a vaccuum. Not to say they dont have their place, but I dont think you can determine anything with them alone.
     
  21. Brown42000

    Brown42000 Chillin

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    Show me all the stats you want but I'm taking him over all of the corners in the AFCE not including Darelle Revis.
     
  22. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, in Vontae's defense, he is being groomed to be "our" Revis or Ashmougha, he draws the opponent's #1 Wr more often than not, and he both makes and gives up plays against them.

    He had that great pick against R Moss in the first game, then gave up two long receptions, that is how it goes. If he pans out as that "shutdown" Cb then this year will have been worth it.

    Revis's rooke yr stats 16 games/87 tackles/3 int's/17 passes defensed

    Davis stats 16 games (though he started 12) 53 tackles/4 int's/11 passes defensed

    4 more starts and Vontae's stat line would be very similar to Revis's, but that Jets team faced us twice and we were putrid that year.
     
  23. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    That is incorrect. The fact is by the time Vontae Davis took over for Will Allen, we were a Man Free defense. We tried quarters. We tried Cover 2. We were killed by the skinny post and more times than not the two cornerbacks had no receiver in their zone when it was thrown.

    You put an Ed Reed in any secondary and the defense will dramatically improve. But there is only one Ed Reed now isn't there? The thing you should be asking is why our secondary coach could not "coach up" Chris Clemons on "Pattern Reads".

    Get the book.......

    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Coaching-Pattern-Read-Coverage-Tom-Olivadotti/dp/1606790463"]Amazon.com: Coaching Pattern-Read Coverage (9781606790465): Tom Olivadotti: Books[/ame]


    It is the single largest factor in the demise of zone calles for our secondary. For all the hate spewed at Gibril Wilson, he's the only man capable of route recognition in the Dolphins secondary.

    So ask yourself this question. Do you want to see another year of "man free"? Sure we could replace Gibril Wilson at Free Safety. As a matter of fact, we should replace Gibril Wilson at Free Safety. Fact is that he should have never been placed in the position. He isn't the athlete that the position demands. That of course has nothing to do with what's in the helmet.

    The real question is "Would you like to see a smarter secondary that can play zone coverages?" It ain't easy and it's a big reason why I'm beginning to doubt the play of Brandon Meriweather.

    Me? I'm praying for smarter players in 2010.
     
  24. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    One must also compare how many touchdowns Revis allowed his rookie season compared to Davis
    Revis...1 td allowed
    Davis...6 tds allowed

    total yards allowed
    Revis...303 yards allowed
    Davis...835 yards allowed

    Revis defended 17 passes
    Davis defended 11 passes

    There are different ways to look at stats
    What has happened to Revis is he came into the league and played very good then improved upon that and is outstanding to the point that passes thrown his way are completed only 36.9 % of the time or #1 in the NFL
     
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  25. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    But then one must ask........

    Why would a team pass versus the 2007 Jets defense when they were giving up a staggering 135 yards per game verus the run. They ranked 29th in the league versus the run. They were 4-12 for the season. Your statistics get all kind of skewed when you suck. :up:
     
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  26. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    I think the only person who could possibly have more hate spewed at them than Gibril Wilson is Tom Olivadotti :lol:
     
  27. The Aqua Crush

    The Aqua Crush New Member

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    I think i heard this weekend that 3-4 d's have trouble against TE's down the middle of the field. Except for teams like Ravens or Steelers. I'm not suprised we gave up a lot of passing plays.

    If we want to shore that up we need to find and draft a player who can have an impact like Polomalou or Ed Reed. Otherwise our passing down the middle will continue to suffer. Problem is players like that don't come around often. And even if you take a top end Safety in the draft there's no way to be sure he'll come in an be a force like either one of those two.

    But if we keep running a 3-4, a ballhawking, heavy hitting Safety is nessecary. IMO our biggest offseason need. We can get to the qb. We can stop the run. We have 2 developing corners and the further development of Nate Jones and his versatility in our backfield. But teams know where our weakness is and it was exposed bad this year. A big reason we couldn't stop Peyton or Brees even when we had the games in the bag.

    Pitt's D is simlar, so is the ravens in terms of stopping the run focused and pressuring the qb. They both play in close games and force teams to beat them through the air. Their wildcard is the play of their safeties. Both players usually come up big and preseve the win with either a big 3rd/4th down play or a turnover. We lack that and subsequently got exposed and lost several very close games.
     
  28. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Ginn?
     
  29. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    As contentious as the Ginn arguments get, they're no worse than the Fiedler/Feely matches of yore. I mean, there are Ginn supporters out there. I don't think anyone would ever support Olivadotti.
     
  30. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    You should leave out every reference to 3-4 as it doesn't matter. 3-4 is describing a FRONT. 4-3 is describing a FRONT. COVERAGE dictates the FRONT. So the only real difference in 3-4 and 4-3 is a reversal of numbers.

    It is the same "1" out of a 3-4 or a 4-3 is banging on the TE. You run into problems with the stud TE when he doesn't get banged at the line. The problem with all that banging is that the "1" who is banging him is part of the FRONT. The run hits fast and it gets past the "1". So now the "1" doesn't bang the stud TE. He gets a free release into the secondary. Once that happens, the stud TE is a mismatch for the "1".

    Now in a 4-3 and a 3-4 the "1" is an outside linebacker. The "1" is removed in passing situations. The "nickel" replaces the "1". Although the "1" is not always the same player. He's just the "1" in the 3-4 or 4-3 FRONT.

    So here is what you have in Dolphins terms.

    One and Two backs = Jason Taylor banging the TE.

    Empty = Ayodele out/Nose out - Jones in/Culver in

    Now here in the "empty" is where all that "hybrid" talk comes in. It's not Hybrid. It's nickel and dime packages. The COVERAGE has dictated the FRONT. Do the math:

    One back reduces a defense to 6 or 7 in the FRONT.
    No backs reduces a defense to 5 or 6 in the FRONT.

    3-4 or 4-3 equals 7. Their assignments vary against the run. Everything else you see on the field is nickel and dime packages. Essentially the 3-4 and 4-3 have been relegated to 1st down in the NFL. And if you see a slot receiver with a one back set in the game, it's probably been thrown out the window on that down too.
     
  31. greasyObnoxious

    greasyObnoxious New Member

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    it's really strange when you think about it. there is not one LB who likes to bang a tight end :lol:
     
  32. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    They are not similar to us at all. They zone blitz. We don't.

    Their safeties shine because they are filling zones that the quarterback doesn't expect them to be occupying. They are occupying that zone because the normal man has occupied another zone vacated by a blitzer. The blitzer has left a zone open or someone from the standard 4 man rush has dropped into that zone.

    What kind of speed do you think it would take to reach a zone that you are not suppose to be occupying? Would you say Chris Clemons sub 4.4 in the forty speed?

    Here is our problem. We're playing the same coverages as we did when Dave Wannstedt was the coach. Dave played it with pro bowlers. Sparano played it with rookies.
     

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