Ireland: 'Ted Ginn is a player I like very much'

Yeah, we know...Ginn had a rough year. The thing is, some look at his previous years in combination with this one, and come to the conclusion that this year was an aberration. His numbers dropped off drastically...yardage was half of the year before...but I don't think any player should be judged on one year.

 

I will preface this by saying that I'm not trying to show any contempt towards you adamprez2003. But, I really feel I must respond to your comments. Especially because you quoted me from earlier today in your post. And, there's a lot to what you posted, so I'm gonna have to tackle this in pieces.

OK, first you say:

Then you say:

So, which one is it...religiously or rarely?

Well, I'm not.

The best comparison I can make is the one between him and Brian Hartline. Hartline will give himself up on any play. He leaves it all on the field. He gives his all for his team. He fights for every yard on every play, every game. I absolutely love that. Give me 52 more guys with his heart and desire, you can have Ginn.

OK...are we gonna use a different set of rules and have a different set of expectations for Ted Ginn than everyone else because of his size...really?

Are we gonna tell Brian Hartline, who is about the same size/frame, that he shouldn't try so hard because he might get hurt? Is that the message you really want to send the rest of the team? That some players should get preferential treatment because they're smaller than the rest? I wonder how that would go over with guys like Ronnie Brown, Chad Pennington, Jason Ferguson, and the rest of the players that went down this year playing the game between the sidelines?

And, what's wrong with Ginn hitting the weight room and putting 10-15lbs of muscle this off season? You know, get him to bulk up? Why do we have to accept that he's slight of build? Maybe a better question is why hasn't he done it already?

Why not? It's football. Getting hit (and, regrettably sometimes getting hurt) is part of the game. You can't play the game worrying about getting hurt (or, you probably will). And, if you're afraid of getting hurt, well...maybe you shouldn't be playing football.

Object all you want, but it is what it is. Besides, I didn't use the word coward, you did. I said he's afraid of contact. He plays scared.

Look adamprez, it's like I said in a post earlier today, we're both fans of the same team, or we wouldn't be here. We may not agree (and, in this case, it is quite obvious we do not). But, that's OK. We can certainly agree to disagree, and be respectful of each others opinions.

At least, I sure hope so.

 

When I see Hartline on the field, he doesn't look nearly as small as Ginn...The only one that does is White...they both look like high schoolers. I agree that Ginn needs to bulk up.

 

good stuff. dont sweat it. we may not always agree but so long as we're rooting for the same results its all good

the religously running out of bounds means thats his instinct for self preservation. the part of him doing it rarely was referring specifically to him running out of bounds before he gets a first down. i forgot the numbers but he's gotten quite a few first downs IIRC so you can do both. as for having 52 players like hartline thats fine but we would be the slowest team in the NFL and regardless of how tough we were we wouldnt win a game. Speed trumps toughness IMO. Its why I quit playing. I was tough but I simply wasnt fast enough. Ideally you want both but that combination is so rare that when you get it you almost always get a hall of famer.

My main thing with Ginn is we need more production from him. I suspect they havent figured out how to use him but judging from Sparano's and Ireland's comments I am pretty confident that they arent ready to give up trying to figure out how to get him to become a 1000 yard a year receiver. And thats what happens when you are blessed with his speed. The rules that apply to others dont apply to you. you get many more chances than some guy with 4.5 speed

 

i tend to care more about "what have you done for me lately"
previous seasons are water under the bridge really
the third season should matter for an NFL WR
we saw ted on the sideline often this season
go back and watch
he had no confidence and the coaching staff had even less

 

Th third season isn't always the breakout year. Many times it's the fourth. Whatever. I don't necessarily subscribe to the "what have you done for me lately" mentality. That mentality will have you giving up on players far too soon. Players like Rivers and Jackson, for example, would not be on the Chargers today if that org took that attitude. If Ginn had NEVER done anything for the Dolphins, I'd agree with you. However, he had a disappointing, somewhat perplexing season, so I'm more than willing to give him one more year.

 

im going to take my stance on Ginn and stick to it
once again you are siting other players
that is irrelevant
what does that have to do with ted ginn really
hartline as a rookie was much better

 

Wow all of this from a talk that Ireland gave just after the Phins had swept the Jets..... This speech was given at Web Weekend to all of the webmasters, it was actually given on November 14th. Had you asked him at that time Pascualoni(sp) was probably safe too

 

Right on my friend. Right on.

You may have been taking what I said too literally adamprez. What I meant was Hartline's attitude or approach to the game. His toughness. His "heart." I didn't mean I want 53 players that are physically exactly like Hartline.

Interesting perspective. Can't say I totally agree or disagree. What I will say is you can be the fastest guy on the field, but if you can't catch, can't block, and don't have the intestinal fortitude to play the game, then what good is speed? JMHO.

Well, I think we'll sufficiently beaten this dead horse. And, the bottom line is the FO is going to do whatever they're going to do regardless of what we think. I hope he's gone, you want to see him used in a manner more befitting his skill set. Ultimately, I think we both want a draft and free agency dedicated to upgrading our defense. Am I right?

Go Phins!

 

Thank you A4E04! I appreciate the props. But, I can't take any credit for the sig. LandShark13 created that for me, and I am very grateful because Jake Long is my favorite Dolphin. I'm very proud he was elected to another Pro Bowl (even though he has decided not to attend).

LS13 also did an animated version of the same sig, and I hope to try that one out soon.

As for the Sparano quote, I actually heard that on TV when they were playing back some training camp video on the NFLN. And, it was just one of those sound bites that really stuck with me. Maybe it was the moment, or the tone in which he said it. But, I remember thinking "man, this guy is friggin' awesome!" So, I had to add it to me sig.

Cool avy/sig on your part too! BTW, where did you get the Ronnie Brown fan banner? Is there one for Jake Long too?

 

If that's true, that changes everything IMO. Hard to believe they're posting a story to a blog on January 12 that took place on November 14 though.

 

listen it is time to move forward as a team and that means minus Ted Ginn Jr. I don't care who the Ginn supporters blame, the fact's remain that Ginn has digressed as a receiver and this year HE punched his own ticket out of Miami. Ginn is the lone reminder of the Cameron nightmare and it's time we end that nightmare once and for all. Besides Ginn will get his chances elsewhere I am sure where ever he goes they have sidelines there too.

 

If you keep judgin players on ONE season, you'll constantly be churning through players...even good/great players. I already cited Rivers and Jackson. How about Favre? After a disappointing year last year for him, he came back this year and had a great season, with a shot at leading his team to the Suoer Bowl. Ginn has had two different coaches, and three or four different QB's. That doesn't make it exactly easy for a new guy to acclimated to the NFL.

Thankfully, I don't see the FO being as short-sighted as many of the posters on here. If Ginn doesn't produce this year coming up, then he will probably, and deservedly, be gone...but he will, IMO, get one more year.

 

The biggest problem with getting rid of Ginn is this - no one else on the team can do what he does. If we get a replacement deep threat or guy that has to be accounted for by a safety, then fine - cut him today.

The main points for cutting him seem to be completely emotional - afraid of contact, underperforming for his draft slot - well until we get someone else that can do what he does, I pick team performance over personal vendetta.

 

Honestly, Ginn, and all the other dropoffs from last season just need to come through and prove it in the offseason workouts, and training camps.

If there is no show that they are trying to make themselves better, then I don't care what their potential is, they shouldn't have a place on this team. Fasano, Ginn, Our Rookie CBs, and many others all need to spend their off time honing their craft. They all had shoddy years (although the rookie CBs was just that rookie year thing), and whether it was an aberation or not is irrelevant. If they can do that, I think the deserve at least a shot in the preseason to see what they can do.

But I really don't believe in giving a free ride to someone who got a passing grade for the past 2 seasons, and dropped the ball (pun not intended) this season, unless they can show me that they are embarrassed by their performance, and are busting their *** to make sure it never happens again.

Like Sparano said. Mediocrity is NOT acceptable.

 

Ginn has had THREE seasons. Over that time he has caught 128 passes for 1664 yards and 5 touchdowns. Compare that to Andre Johnson's first three seasons. AJ caught 208 passes for 2806 yards and 12 touchdowns.

That's a difference of 80 catches for 1142 yards and 7 touchdowns. Ginn doesn't stack up.

I would trade him. Nobody is going to give us a 1st round pick but his value as a return man might be worth a 3rd, 4th, or 5th round pick. We could use that pick to draft a return man. Then we could go out and find our #1 receiver.

 

I think you can safely remove the quotes without too many people objecting a peep.

 

So we are judging every one of our players performance against the best player at their position? Does ANYONE stack up to that?

What about Andre Johnson and Ted Ginn makes them comparable? They are COMPLETELY different players.

Again - he hasn't lived up to YOUR expectations so you want to cut him no matter what he has provided to the team. That is an absolutely horrible way to look at running a team.

You are saying that even though he provided a spark in the return game and got deep to catch some big passes - you want him gone because he isn't living up to his potential?

 

I don't think you'll find one person here who isn't disappointed in Ginn's stats over the past 3 seasons, but it's pretty laughable to compare him to Andre Johnson who is quite possibly the best WR in the league and who came into the league as one of the most physically gifted marvels the league had ever seen.

However, if you want to look at the trends for Johnson over his first three years, his ypg went from 61 to 71.4 to 52.9. So one could argue Johnson was worse in year 3 than he was as a rookie. I doubt anyone was looking to cut him or trade him after year 3 though, or even shouting about his regressions (from year 1 to year 3) to anyone who would listen. Certainly he didn't get the hate that Ginn got despite him being the #3 pick overall (I know Ginn is a bust for the #9 pick, but by the same token the #3 pick shouldn't get worse in the "magical third year").

Year 3 for Andre has proved to be the aberration. Why is it so unlikely that Ginn can't get back to his 2008 form?

 

Then I wish people wouldn't object when I say things like "good kick returner", "provides big plays", "has shown improvement in getting separation".

 

I just don't agree with comparing Ted Ginn, to Andre Johnson, the two are lightyears apart in terms of talent.

And as far as trading him for a 3rd-5th round pick, I just don't see it happening. Maybe a 4th or 5th as he'd be seen as purely a return guy from anyone picking him up. And at that point I just don't see it making sense to get another return guy. Sure we could use that pick to try to find a sleeper in the draft, but I seriously think it's worth giving Ted Ginn a year to see if he at least can step up to #2 calibur.

Basically what I'm trying to say is we don't have any better chance landing a #1 with Ted Ginn not on the roster. If anything we stand a better chance of doing good if he can pick up his play at #2, and we can get a playmaker in at #1. Because he'll likely face easier matchups, and will likely draw more coverage to allow a true #1 to do his thing in Man coverage. And if they double up on the #1, Ginn's speed might be enough to get him around the weaker CB (If he can pick up his play).

I just think we have a better chance to gain more out of him by keeping him, than trading him.

 

Who should we compare them to? The worst player?

 

That's my point exactly.

Hartline is a better option if we're looking for a #2 wideout.

 

I'd suggest someone like Santonio Holmes. Holmes first 3 years are considerably better (overall) than Ginn's, but at least he and Ginn are physically similar.

 

Nobody in their right mind besides Al Davis is giving up a 3rd or a 4th for Ginn right now....a 5th if your extremely lucky....more like a 6th

 

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to point out. Glad we're in agreeance on that at least

And last(this?) year, yeah I'd definitely say Hartline over Ginn, but I think Ginn has some natural born talents that if he takes this year as a wakeup call, and steps up with something to prove next year might be the guy we need him to be behind another WR that downright scares defenses.

Basically my thoughts on this are that Ginn realizes (pretty sure he said it publicly) that this was his worst year in football. If he's a gamer, he is going to bust tail this offseason, and come back with a vengeance to prove everyone wrong next year. I just really do not want to see him do that, after we invested 3 years into him, and have that benefit go to another team.

If he doesn't bounce back from this year, I think it's safe to say he never will be a good NFL receiver. I just know we'll be kicking ourselves if we trade him, and he has a complete turnaround. And if he's ever going to have one, I'm putting my money on 2010.

 

Not to mention Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Wes Welker, Reggie Wayne, Greg Jennings, Derrick Mason, and DeSean Jackson.. They're all better than Ginn.

 

Listen - we all get that Ginn had a bad year, but lets not act like there is no chance he will ever be successful. As posted earlier, between 98-05, over 20% of receivers had their breakout year in year 4.

As for your comparisons?

Steve Smith had very similar stats to Ginn in his first two years.

Santana Moss didn't even have 500 yards after 2 years.

Reggie Wayne had a similar first 2 seasons to Ginn and his 3rd year only had 800 yds

Greg Jennings didn't get 1,000 till his 3rd year.

Derrick Mason didn't have a breakout year until his FOURTH year and his first 3 years were much worse than Ginn's.

Wes Welker couldn't even make a team or get on the field his first two years - and didn't break 700 yards till his 5th year.

Desean Jackson has obviously been a great player - though it a much more wide-open offense.

Ginn isn't really lagging that far behind. He had a very off year this year - but by your own comparison, he is pretty much on course with these players.

 

Agreed. We would be lucky to get a 3rd or a 4th. However Courtney Roby, Jacoby Jones, Lardarius Webb, and Johnnie Lee Higgins were all 3rd round picks. A good return man has value.

 

Isn't that a good reason not to trade him?

I don't see the value in having a good KR and trying to trade him for a pick so that you can draft a guy you hope is a good KR.

Not to mention WR is already our weakest position so we should think more about adding to it than subtracting.

 

Cool. Maybe there's hope for Ginn yet.

Personally I believe Ginn is more likely to have a career like Desmond Howard than Derrick Mason.

 

At this point if he could be Tony Martin and Desmond Howard combined I would happy.

To be honest - if he can be James Jett and Desmond Howard combined I wouldn't be that upset.

 

No. We could find a return man who is just as good if not better than Ginn in the later rounds. If we could get a 4th round pick for him that might be more valuable to us than his ability as a kick returner.

You don't draft a wideout with the 9th pick if you don't expect him to be your #1 receiver. Ginn has not panned out in that respect. So here's the question. Is he more valuable as a return man or as trade bait?

Hartline, Bess, and Camarillo are all better receivers than Ginn. If we add a true #1 wideout then where does Ginn fit in? I know he's a hard worker and a good kid and all that but could his ego really handle being fifth on the depth chart?

Its unfair but there are expectations that go along with being a Top 10 pick. The best thing for Ginn would be a fresh start.

 

At some point you have to cut your losses. I've got my scissors ready. I don't believe Ginn will benefit much from another year but I respect that fact that you do. If we can't trade him its probably worth it to give him one last chance. As long as its not at the expense of bringing in a viable #1 receiver.

 

Most sane people wouldn't but it is certainly possible that neither Mueller or Cameron expected Ginn to be a #1 (at least a #1 like most of us think). They may have ultimately expected an 800yd/season WR with like 6-8 rec TDs who could give us good field position and big plays on special teams (2TDs/yr).

 

None of the guys on our roster should prevent us from bringing in a viable #1 WR (the lack of viable candidates as well as holes on defense might prevent us from doing so though).

 

Here is the problem with that logic - if it were that easy to find good return men, why would anyone trade a 3rd or 4th for him instead of just drafting on in the later rounds themselves? And why did we have Patrick Cobbs returning kicks if good KR's are so easy to find?

Hartline, Bess and Camarillo are completely different WR than Ginn. They are great at the short yardage, possession game - but Ginn is our only guy that can provide big plays.

The draft is over - why do we need to get rid of decent players because they didn't live up to expectations? Should we lessen our ST's and get rid of Ginn and Jason Allen just because they aren't producing like first rounders, or should we keep them because we want to put the best team on the field and they are still productive, just not at the level hoped.

 

A 3rd or 4th round pick is going to have a hard time making a team that is already loaded like the Colts, Saints, Chargers, Steelers, or Packers. It might be smart for them to add a proven return man like Ginn. Especially if they have an extra pick in one of those rounds.

The other thing is I don't believe Ginn is all that even as a return man. He was great in the Jets game but after that he had a ton of opportunities and didn't do much of anything at all. A ton of opportunities. Damn was that frustrating to watch.

However as you can see from just this thread alone not every shares the same opinion of Ted Ginn. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

I don't mean to imply that its easy to find a good return man but most of them are acquired in the 3rd round and beyond. Even if we went on to win the Super Bowl next year we could draft Ginn's replacement in the 2nd or 3rd round if we placed that high a value on a kick returner. That's a pretty sad commentary on the #9 overall pick.

Not true. Hartline has proven he is more than capable of making big plays. Bess is a chain mover. Camarillo had a tough year. Didn't make the impact he should have. However he is still a more complete wideout than Ginn.

My point is we won't need Ginn when we bring in a true #1 wideout which by all accounts we need to do.

I believe Ginn's psyche is damaged. Sports is mostly mental. He will be a better player on another team but he will never be consistently great for the Dolphins. Just my opinion.

I'm also not in love with Jason Allen. You always hear how great he is on special teams but he is not a very good blocker. Yes he makes a lot of tackles on kickoffs and punts but so do a lot of other guys. Erik Walden, Nathan Jones, Reggie Torbor, and Cameron Wake just to name a few. I could draft a guy in the 7th round to take Jason Allen's place and our special teams wouldn't skip a beat.

 

All Ginn has to do is play like he did in the last half of this season. He is playing good enough to make, and improve the team now. No one is saying that he is worth a #9 overall, but that is water under the bridge at this point. He doesn't need one more chance. Much like Jason Allen, though clearly being a disappointment for were he was drafted, he has a role on the team.


Also, please explain how keeping Ginn could possibly impact us from landing a "#1". I keep seeing that as a reason not to keep him.

 

GinnJr. is likable & I'm sure will be a big success once he leaves the NFL.
Unfortunately, likability is not an asset on the playing field. Not to worry.
We still have Ricky, Ronnie & JT, all extremely affable & can play football.