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1 or the other...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by muskrat21, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    we either need to keep Tanny and get rid of Gase, and see how Tanny plays with a new coach, then if he flops the new coach can move on from him bc Tanny isn't "his guy" anyway... QB is weak for FA and draft this year...

    OR

    Get rid of Tanny and let Gase and FO try to find a new QB, which will prob end up in Gase getting fired anyway because the FA and draft QB's aren't impressive.



    100% must get rid of, Burke (preferable at 4:01pm sunday when the season is over) and Tannebaum.
     
  2. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Option three is accept that we've been plagued by injuries, Tannehill has had little protection and almost nobody to throw to, and give Gase/Tannehill 16 more games together. As of right now, today, that is Ross's plan. It's silly that fans don't even recognize that as an option when it's the most likely thing to happen.
     
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  3. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    In all honesty, unless he's willing to relinquish playcalling duties, Gase can go.
     
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  4. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Tammy has been through what three regimes now? If you give me 1 or the other only options I keep Gase and I don’t even like him. Ryan is a slightly better than 500 an he shows flashes and wins some games than looks silly and cost you games. He has run his course
     
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I’ll take Gase in that situation.tannehill is a coach killer
     
  6. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    People are still running with this?
     
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  7. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    It's all about alternatives. With both the starting QB and HC you go for the guy you believe in, the guy you want to get. If either of those exists for the Dolphins, then you do that now. If they don't, then you don't ditch either one just for the sake of it.

    Ditching a QB is easier, since other QB's are around and you could make it a one year deal or whatever, with a plan to look for your desired QB. But if that's the case you're not really looking to win with a holdover, and Tanny carries dead cap space, so I don't see the need to ditch him this year unless the QB they really want is available.

    As for HC, if you make that change you're committing to someone new for at least 2-3 years. They'll change the team, they'll have to rebuild. So that better be the guy you really want. There is no holdover option - unless - you hate Gase, and decide to hand the reins over to someone in-house - Rizzi or someone. Then you're rid of Gase, can keep your eyes open, but you've maintained some continuity.

    I'm not sure that happens, but it will depend massively on conversations between Gase and Ross. Is Gase open to change? Will Ross require it of him? Lots of invisible stuff that'll be going on. But again, if Ross is pondering it, I don't think he pulls the trigger unless there's someone out there he likes.
     
  8. MediocrityLivesOn

    MediocrityLivesOn Member

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    I just want this tragic season to end already.
     
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  9. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    What? Facts? I know it's not convenient to point that out given that many of you proved that Tannehill was elite because he strung together 5 consecutive good games.. but here we are 7 years later with another FO about to get axed and another coach on the hot seat, much like the coach before him and the 5 or so other offensive coordinators that bit the dust too.

    Ryan Tannehill may not be the only problem Miami has had but he's certainly one of the biggest problems. I'd keep Gase and get rid of Tannehill in a heartbeat and frankly I'm tired of all the excuses and victimization going on surrounding Tannehill. He's toast in Miami and deservedly so.

    We've been debating a QB with a 42-45 record for the past 7 years. Let that sink in. I know it's hard to fathom that the QB does play a major role in how the general team performs, but it's time to start fathoming that.
     
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  10. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Okay, let's run with the argument that Ryan Tannehill is a coach killer.

    During Ryan Tannehill's career, he's played under three different head coaches and three different offensive coordinators.

    Head coaches - Joe Philbin, Dan Campbell, Adam Gase

    Offensive Coordinators - Mike Sherman, Bill Lazor, Dowell Loggains

    Let's ignore the last person on each of those lists, since their currently employed.

    Joe Philbin has been shown to be a very bad head coach. And even now, as he's currently the (interim) head coach, he's not doing any better, even with a QB that, as everyone can agree, is leagues above Tannehill.

    Dan Campbell... well, I can't say much about him. Benjamin Watson isn't exactly setting the world on fire, but I haven't watch the Saints enough to know their offensive tendencies this year, and they have a great record so... I guess he's doing okay.

    Mike Sherman hasn't coached in the NFL since he was fired from Miami. He is currently the head coach of the CFL's Montreal Alouettes. And in his (albeit) first year, Montreal went 5-13.

    Bill Lazor became offensive coordinator again in 2017. In 2017, the Bengals offense was dead last. In 2018, they're currently ranked 25.

    So with the exception of Dan Campbell, every coach that Tannehill "killed" has moved on and haven't done anything noteworthy to show that they're anything to write "I miss you" letters to.

    When it comes to coaches being "killed", I can care less how one feels about Tannehill - the coaches didn't get fired because of Tannnehill. They got fired because they sucked.
     
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sometimes coaches don’t make the best talent evaluators..when you believe that something flawed can take you where you want to go, you gonna die.
     
  12. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, regardless how you feel about RT, it still means that these coach's are the victims of their own incompetence.
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes I agree, they trusted a flawed qb.
     
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  14. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    So what are Philbin's and Lazor's excuses now?
     
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  15. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Better question what will yours be when Tannehill is released and can't get a starting NFL job and if and when he does the outcomes will be the same?

    And Lazor has shown flashes, as evidenced by Tannehill having one of his best years here.. of course when Tannehill reverted back to who he was you hung your hat on the playbook being scaled down for him and them limiting his ability to audible, clearly as part of some conspiracy to make Tannehill look bad and unrelated to his ability to make the right line calls. the Bengals offense started out good this year with a QB similiar to Ryan and fizzled out late when Dalton was injured - Still better than the once again bottom of the barrel Miami offense.

    Philbin is also so territle that Aaron Rogers recently stated that he should be retained as the HC.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  16. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I don't make excuses. I only point out factors that may effect a player.

    Also, the Bengals' offense been sucking since the Steelers, way before Dalton got injured.
     
  17. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Do you think a small part of that offense continually sucking may be related to a Tannehill clone in Andy Dalton or is the OC a magician that can turn an average, bottom 5 QB in to Patrick Mahomes?
     
  18. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I expect a decent OC to do something with an offense of a team that has made the playoffs 5 out of the 6 years prior to his arrival.
     
  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Who the hell cares, if you wanna continue to debate tannehill on the basis that he’s good enough to be the QB on a championship team then nice talking to ya dude..
     
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  20. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Except that wasn't what I was debating. You said that Ryan Tannehill was a coach-killer. And yet no one has come up with anything supporting that. So, with that said, goid night to you.
     
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  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He’s coach killer because coaches believe they can win with him at the helm..they ultimately fail because he is t good enough..they all have failed here regardless of how you feel about them elsewhere..
     
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  22. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Not just coaches. But any of the skill players that left Miami who people proclaimed would “do well now that Tannehill is not holding them back”. None of them took their games to the next level.
    Not Mike Wallace, not Jarvis Landry, not Devon Bess, not Brian Hartline, not Jay Ajayi, not Lamar Miller. The only guy who’s production increased was Rishard Matthews, but that was due to Philbin underusing him not any increase in efficiency.

    I am on the “let’s get a Tannehill replacement” bus. However, the fact is that Tannehill is an adequate NFL starter, what he isn’t is a difference maker.
     
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  23. Drizzy

    Drizzy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Though I wouldn’t put it past him, because he is dumb as rocks, Ross is done with Tannehill from all reports, he knows the fanbase is done with him too, he won’t be back, whether Gase stays or goes, I’d be willing to bet on that.
     
  24. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I won't cry if he leaves, I just really hope the front office has a plan aside from "change" because decisions like that usually result in disaster unless you luck out.
     
  25. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    delaware
    I say go with Brock,Fales,or Faulk and not waste money on a free agent no better than Tannehill.Really what would the point be?
    Blow this team up and draft our future franchise Qb in 2020.We need to take a step back to go 2 steps forward.I am tired of 6-10 -8-8 every freaking year.I will gladly sacrifice 2019 season to be a real contender in a few years.
    Of course I know Ross will never have the patience for this way of thinking because he is to old to wait.So expect another run at the status quo.
     
  26. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    Plantation, Fl
    It ended last week
     
  27. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Isn't perpetual ineptitude, 8-8, 7-9 and an offense that can't stay on the field disaster enough?

    Ryan Fitzpatrick wouldn't do any better or worse than Ryan. I'd rather go down the road of a perpetual backup combined with drafting a QB than the continuation of being good enough not to pick top 10 but bad enough to be middle of the pack.

    Think of Tannehill like we thought of Suh last year, except that Suh actually has the Pro Bowl credentials and future HOF path compared to Ryan who is just pedestrian in comparison.

    Suh was let go and our run hasn't been worse - All while you develop much younger an cheaper youngsters in Taylor and Godcheaux.

    We can do the same at the QB position.
     
  28. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    The difference is that while they may do the same behind crap, I believe Tannehill is 100x better than those type of players protected.

    If you arent actually upgrading the position it's smarter to focus on what you can do to help what you have thrive.
     
  29. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    I'll keep saying this until I'm blue in the face, but sometimes in life there is addition by subtraction.
    Ryan Tannehill is every bit a part of the losing culture in Miami. He's been the one constant since 2012.
    We can respectfully disagree as to his ceiling and talent level. I think he's a bottom 5 starting QB and can be easily replaced. You may not be able to replace his arm strength and unbelievable physical talent, but you may be able to improve in conversion of third downs, leadership and ability to scan the field and make reads. To me it's a wash. You can disagree and that's OK.
     
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  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    That makes zero logical sense
     
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  31. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I didn't mean to imply it wasn't okay to disagree, if I came off that way sorry.

    I see the disconnect though. You see bottom 5 and I see what is basically middle of the pack.
     
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  32. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    We've seen Tanny and a new coach a couple times now. Same results for the most part with all of them. Now, pairing Gase and Bridgewater would be interesting. It would be the BIG CHANGE that Ross can sell to the fans, and it would show whether it was Gase as coach or his QB that is most responsible for the failure of the offense.

    Gase didn't turn Cutler into a good starter as we hoped in 2017, and his affect on Tanny has been marginal at best. A failure with Bridgewater would be enough for me to conclude it was Gase as the problem. At the very least, more evidence he can't improve marginal QBs with his coaching/system. Also, I made this point before, but even with a new QB, the other offensive players know the Gase offense and could help Bridgewater get up to speed quickly. No excuse about the QB needing a year to 'learn the system' before he can play well.

    If we get a playoff season with Gase/Bridgewater then you hand out new contracts to both and we get some of that stability that consistently good teams usually have.

    If 2019 is another year of struggle, you clean house in 2020 and trade away some future picks to get a QB you believe in. I'd actually be cool with Ross demanding they trade our 2019 first rounder to get another first in 2020. You are giving Gase another chance in 2019, but also prepare for the future by giving a new GM/Coach more to work with.

    TLDR version: Tanny needs to go, Gase can get one more year with Bridgewater to succeed, and the team can prepare for a full rebuild if needed in 2020.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  33. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I only want to address one thing here.

    Experienced players help sure, but that isn't going to make him instantly grasp the system. The QB is responsible for things other players don't even have to think of usually, or at the very least has to know everything that everyone else knows on the offense combined.
     
  34. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but contrast that with EVERYONE on offense learning a new system. Everything is slowed a bit as players have to think more and not rely on muscle memory or familiar patterns. A step slow here, a wrong route run there, and an offense can struggle.

    It would be a lot of work for Bridgewater to learn the system, and I could see him play a lot in the preseason games to help the process along. I'd even say that the first quarter of the regular season would be part of the learning curve. After that though, I need to see positive results. If Bridgewater has a knack for making something out of busted plays? That would be an advantage Miami has not had in a long time, and never with Tanny.

    If Bridgewater struggles to learn a new offense though, then he was never the answer at QB and the 2020 rebuild can commence.
     
  35. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Okay, but how is that any different from us starting up to 9 of 11 new offensive players this season? It's been a revolving door each week and there hasn't been time to slow things down. I honestly think that's the biggest issue of the season....nothing has been repetitive because we can't keep the same folks on the field.

    Add Bridgewater to the mix having to learn the offense and tell everyone else what they're doing? That doesn't sound like a recipe for winning right out of the gate. One of Tanehill's strengths is knowing the offense inside and out for the whole team. That's not as easy to replace as you think.
     
  36. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    In this nightmare scenario I choose Gase I guess. We've seen what Tannehill can do, and that's be inconsistent. He's had 7 years he is what he is an average QB with 0 spontaneity to his game.
     
  37. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been ready to get rid of Tannehill for 2-3 seasons now. Gase I’m not sold on but am open to him coming back.
     
  38. Wilkimania

    Wilkimania Well-Known Member

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    This is an odd one because I could easily see a scenario where they're both here in 2019 only to both be gone by 2020. I guess I'll go with keeping Gase option?

    I don't think either is the solution, but at the same time I don't think either one is the entirety of our problems.
     
  39. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, a lot of new faces on offense this year. I'm sure that had some effect, but Tanny knew the offense front and back, right? He should have been able to help the new guys out as needed. BTW, both Tanny and Teddy will be a minor question mark when it comes to staying healthy, but the risk seems about equal.

    Getting Grant and Wilson back, plus the rookies like Gesicki going into a second season means most of the offensive starters will be comfortable in the Gase offense. Perfect time to add a new QB in Bridgewater and see how it goes.

    To sum it up: The difference in 2019 would be adding a new QB to an offense where the starters are set and know the offense versus 2018 where the QB was the expert but had a handful of starters that were still learning the offense to one degree or another.

    Look, I get that injuries kept this team from a few more wins this year, but the ceiling on a Gase/Tanny combo seems to be 10 wins and a Wildcard round exit unless you are at home. At home you squeak out a win and get blown out in the Divisional round. Bridgewater would be the unknown factor that might, MIGHT change that expected result. If not, blow it up and start again in 2020.
     
  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't disagree with anything you said except, "If not, blow it up and start again in 2020."

    That's what we did from the late 90's until now....building a roster, filling holes with aging veterans and giving up on it after a few years and starting over. Maybe RT's ceiling is 10 wins and an occasional WC victory, and for some folks maybe winning 8-10 each season is not enough. I completely understand that. What I'm terrified of though is becoming a 2-win team next season, 7 wins the year after and then blowing it all up to try experiment #2. I think people forget what that feels like over and over and over again.

    For me, I hope Miami negotiates with RT and switches his contact to be heavily incentive-driven based on three seasons of injury. That way, if we pay him an $8-10M base salary we can still bring in Bridgewater and make it a real competition without completely hitting reset. I just feel it in my bones that we're so darn close to making that run.....we had one heck of a team the 1st three weeks and we'd have all those guys back next season.
     
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