19th pick as of today (estimation) who you do draft?

Ah the old "we should trade down" theory. Great on paper, never happens in real life.

 

Actually it's rather naive of you to not have interests in the Ginn comparisons. Ginn does what Harvin does and vice versa. Whether you like it or not. You can only have so many luxury items on your offense.

Ted Ginn runs the route tree. Percy Harvin does not. Miami WANTS A DAY ONE STARTER. That is not Percy Harvin. Parcells won't be here after 2010 at the latest. The assumption that there is this fantasy land where Chad Henne is throwing rainbows to Harvin cracks me up.

When they take a WR it will be a bigger target, someone that they thought Ernest Wilford was going to be.

 

Couldn't agree more.

If Larry English DID last to the second pick in round 2, I could easily see Miami taking Sintim in round one and coming back to the well in round 2b. Joey Porter may well be having a career year, but he's also, what, 31, 32? Much as Ireland was integral in taking Ware and then Kevin Burnett in the same year. Hell, look at that 2005 draft;

1. OLB - Demarcus Ware.
1. DE - Marcus Spears
2. LB - Kevin Burnett
4. DE - Chris Canty
7. DE/DT - Jay Ratliff.

Look at Parcells' first draft as Dallas head coach; he took Terrence Newman 6th overall and had to be taken to dinner by Jerry Jones on the night before the draft and talked out of taking Kevin Williams and into taking Newman. Parcells was known to have been absolutely furious that Jones opted for Newman. He then took Bradie James in the 4th.

Look at the year after taking Ware AND Burnett first and 2nd, he comes back and takes ANOTHER OLB in the first round in Bobby Carpenter and DE Jason Hatcher in the 3rd round. And then he's gone in January 2007 and Jeff Ireland is Jerry Jones' number 2 in the draft room and who do they take in the first round?

DE/OLB Anthony Spencer.

In the five years that Parcells and Ireland presided over the Cowboys, they had 39 draft picks. TEN of them - more than a quarter - went on defensive linemen or linebackers. When you consider that there are 16 possible positions that they could have drafted from, that's a remarkable number.

Of those 39 picks, 15 came in the first three rounds. Six of those 15 picks were spent soleley on ends or OLB's. That's almost half. Again a remarkable number. And none of this takes into consideration the point about Kevin Williams.

Of the five first round picks during their tenure in Dallas, those picks were used on:

3 OLB's, one defensive end and a cornerback that Parcells didn't want because he wanted, guess what.......a defensive lineman.

Look at his three drafts in charge of the Jets; 11 picks in 1997, 5 of which went on linebackers and defensive linemen, including the first, second and 4th rounders and a 7th rounder called Jason Ferguson. That's almost half on 2 positions out of 16 available positions to pick from.

12 picks in 1999, a quarter of which on two positions including their first pick, Dorian Boose.

8 picks in 1999, 3 more on the same two positions. That again is almost half.

Are we getting the message yet?

Of those three drafts with the Jets, 31 picks in total, 11 of which - a third - were spent on two spots, do you know how many were cornerbacks?

Two.

Do you know how many were wide receivers?

Two.

Last time I checked you need as many wideouts and corners on the field as you do ends and outside linebackers.

In his four years with the Patriots, he drafted Chris Slade and Willie McGinest and Ernie Collier and Tedy Bruschi in the first three rounds. Only here did he take a corner - Ty Law - without duress. He also took Terry Glenn, but much like Terrence Newman, it was a pick forced on him.

Between 1983 and 1990 with the Giants, he drafted Leonard Marshall, Carl Banks, Eric Dorsey, Erik Howard, Pepper Johnson, John Washington, Mike Fox and Greg Mark in rounds 1-3. He was also the DC and LB coach when they drafted Lawrence Taylor in 1981 and was influential in the scouting process that brought Taylor to New York. In that period, 83-90, one CB and one WR went in round 1; Terry Kinard and Mark Ingram respectively. Both 4 years starters.

Is the message hitting home as to why it won't be Percy Harvin?

 

Well done Simon, very nice post, I learned a lot, thanks.

 

I'll say it again: Camarillo and Bess are SERVICEABLE. He's crafty, but in a borderline starter/reserve kind of way. Moss is just off this year- I wonder if his heart is in it after the Brady debacle. So your argument is to compare Camarillo to Moss during Moss's crappiest of years? And Moss still has 5 times the touchdown total? Please ...

You expect the team to go backwards next year? Gee, what a perfect year to take a true playmaker and give him time to gel with the QB heir apparent Henne.

In an earlier post I referred to "Washington"- I meant Charlie Anderson. I still haven't given up on him, Moses, Ninkovich, but that really isn't the point. I see a good defense that needs some help and an offense that is often a scoop of Metamucil away from being constipated, especially when you factor out the fleeting "Wildcat" success. I see a lack of WR talent (maybe London will be the size WR that you desire). I see a very good QB with a very bad arm that clenches the offenses intestines further. It's just my opinion- take on of the guys that I keep mentioning instead of most likely reaching in rd 1 for a OLB or DE/OLB convert. Rds 2 through whatever- fine with me.

 

Mate, Camarillo is a lot more than serviceable.

Bess has more catches in ten games than Wes Welker had in his first two and a half seasons.

Charlie Anderson is a borderline cut.

Pennington doesn't have "a very bad arm". We're winning BECAUSE of Chad Pennington's arm, not despite it.

Who is a reach in R1 that's an OLB/DE convert?

 

Deal, but I'll settle for a beer. Kronenbourg, Boddington's , or EKU 128- the best. I'm sticking to my guns on this one- I look at Harvin and I see raw talent. I look at Ginn and I see a glider. Harvin will blow Ginn out of the water as a pro. The thing about Ginn that shocks me is that despite his speed, his lateral quickness appears to be average at best. Again, my friend-former HS football player, almost made it as a walk on at UF playing Safety, watches Gators games religiously, Dolphins season ticket holder for 17 years-he flat out laughs when asked about comparing Harvin to Ginn. That, combined with what I've seen, is good enough for me. And you KNOW that after seeing those pictures you can drop the straight comparison routine. Stop harping on 210. 200 to 205 would be just fine, and you know it.

Look, I'm all for improving the OLB position, I just see better options in rd.1 I mentioned in an earlier post the guy that you brought up- English. I have never seen him play or heard of him for that matter. But if we can get him with 2a, 2b, or 3- great. It makes too much sense to me- take the raw, incredible talent at a need position- sit on him for a year or so and get Henne his new prize. Yes, we have RB's, but things happen and Harvin has proven that he could play there if need be. Except for the Ginn reverse (how many of our offensive successes have come from the Wildcat and trick plays?) watching the Dolphins offense for the 1st 3 1/2 quarters was like watching grass grow or paint dry. Or metal rust, you get my point.

Last year's aformentioned Kool Aid came in several different flavors:

1) Chris Long was almost a lock as the fist pick.
2) Jake Long was way overrated and couldn't handle LT.
3) Vernon Gholston should be seriously considered as our #1 pick.
4) Colt Brennan was simply awesome. Far, far better than Chad Henne.

And I was all over John Beck, my own flavor of Kool Aid, and I still like him. Again, a Dallas trade just makes too much sense. If we're that desperate for OLB's, how about Kevin Burnett in FA? Some LB with talent has to be buried in Dallas' depth chart with all they've got there.

 

I was thinking Hardy in terms of DE/OLB Convert. My guess is that Sintim is a straight up OLB, like you said.

Yes, we have weapons. the RB's are good, but with overinflated stats from the wildcat success. I like Fasano a lot, and I'm starting to really like Cobbs.
Camarillo and Bess are serviceable, average talents, Hagan is gone, Wilford blows, and Ginn is getting better but I'd still rather have Dwayne Bowe. We need talent at WR to stretch the field, and make plays/TD's. Agian, if Harvin were drafted and he and Henne were good to go in 2010, that's fine with me. I'd take Larry English with one of the next 3 picks and be happy about it.

 

When was that statement ever made? And I have yet to see proof that Brennan isn't awesome.

And Kevin Burnett is not an OLB in a 3-4. Not only is the 3-4 predicated on a wealth of LBs and strong DL play, but just like on any team you can never have enough pass-rushers. Plenty of teams get by with serviceable WRs (as you put it). Look at the Titans. They are 10-0 right now.

 

No Derrick Williams


(Does Demetrius Byrd count as a bigger target, I know he is like 6-2?)

 

I think you should take a look at how many yards we have actually gained rushing the ball from the wild-cat. I'm pretty sure it is not significantly higher an average from any of our other formations.

And even if it were, so what? You win on offense by taking advantage of mismatches, and the wildcat tries to do just that by putting our best weapons on the field at the same time. Just because it is a non-convential formation how in the hell does that make it any less relevant a formation than the I or ACE?

 

It's relevant because the Wildcat was a temporary fix to a basic problem- lack of offensive playmaking ability. It had it's run and has been less effective of late- personally I like it. Was I watching a different game last week? In the absense of the Ginn reverse and some good runs by Cobbs or brown the offense was a dud. Again, I know for sure because I was there freezing my *** off because I was too stupid to bring a jacket. unusually cold, that was the first day of a cold snap down here.

I'm not knocking the wildcat, I'm saying that we need more offensive weapons. If I wasn't too busy freezing Ii would have focused more on the Oakland #1 CB- he's awesome- to see who he was shutting down. I meant to do that, bums me out that I didn't. As always, just my opinion.

 

That all sounds great IF THERE WAS A GUY THERE WORTHY OF A FIRST ROUND PICK. I don't see those guys out there this year. And I'd still rather have Moore or Mack. And no, your message regarding Harvin is not hitting home. Conserve your breath on that one.

 

Those who drank a gallon of Kool Aid on Brennan can raise their own hands and speak for themselves. As to Burnett, he's light for what they want, but he could put some weight on that frame. And he is a pass rusher, at least that's what I recall.

All of this yapping over a simple opinion- I think that we would be better served taking a true playmaker in rd. 1 than chancing reaching for a DE/OLB when, at leat to me, it doesn't look like a good year for drafting one in the 1st. And for the umpteenth time, I'd rather have William Moore or Alex Mack that chance a potential reach.

 

I'm saying we need more cohesive line play (on offense). We have plenty of weapons as it turns out, but when 1/2 to 3/5 of the OL is underperforming, it tends to hurt how well you can execute.

Harvin would be as big a luxury as Ginn was, and he would serve the same role as Ginn (if that) so it makes zero sense to draft him whether he would be "worth" our 1st rounder or not. If we were going to draft an offenseive skill player in rd1, I would hope it was Pettigrew, and he is about the only offensive player right now that I want to see in rd 1. I am saying that, and I love Crabtree and Maclin. Neither are what will suit this team best though.

 

See again, anytime you say that a guy with no NFL experience is going to blow a rising NFL player "out of the water", you lose your argument. I don't care whether your friend is Jesus H Christ himself, with respect, the roles that Ginn and Harvin will play in the NFL are very similar.

I'm not sure why you can't grasp this.

The 210 thing was your doing. You claimed Ginn was 175 and that Harvin was clearly 30lbs heavier.

Did you ask how many of our offensive successes came from the wildcat or trick plays? I guess you missed the Patriots, Texans, Seahawks games, etc.

1. I certainly don't recall saying Chris Long was "almost a lock".
2. I do recall saying that Jake Long was a better RT than LT. Hands up if I was the only one.
3. Vernon Gholston WAS considered for our first pick. Why do you think he came to Davie twice, why we went to a workout in Columbus and met with him on a 4th, seperate occasion? Because we liked his witty badinage?
4. I have no idea who said Colt Brennan was "simply awesome". And you're talking like Chad Henne is now in the Pro Bowl.

Why would you think that we would, at 6-4, settle for a back-up Dallas linebacker when we have a better record than the Cowboys? Especially when there is a perfect fit and immediate contributor in Clint Sintim sitting out there?

I'm afraid that you and your friend are having trouble accepting that Miami won't be drafting Percy Harvin. I'm sorry for that fact. But it is what it is.

 

Hardy lines up outside at linebacker at times. He's hardly a project to convert.

Camarillo is on course for 80 catches. That's more than serviceable.

 

There are some off the field issues with Byrd from his high school and early LSU days that may come back and kick him in the balls.

 

I drank the Brennan kool-aid, but I never said he was better than Henne. I still think Brennan can be great.

I still don't know what DE/OLB we would be "reaching" on with our 1st rounder of the guys that have been discussed. Sintim, Hardy, Tyson Jackson, Curry, Michael Johnson, Larry English all those guys have potential to go in rd 1, and none would likely be reaches where we pick.

Hell, I would like to see us grab any of those guys listed (Jackson and Sintim would have no learning curve position-wise btw), and be able to come back later and possibly grab a Marcus Freeman (who is coming off injury).

I love William Moore, but aside from him, in rd1 I want a defensive front 7 guy.

 

You clearly don't know a great deal about the draftable players in 2009 then.

Let's leave it at that.

Honest to God, if you think Jeff Ireland and Bill Parcells are going to sign off on a positonless junior wide receiver with heavy weight gain on maxed out frame and small legs when they already have Ted Ginn, a player they wouldn't have drafted anyway, when they've only ever drafted two wideouts in their 25 year history with the draft and one of those was forced on Parcells and the other was drafted 21 years ago, then you're deluded.

 

I liked Brennan. Good player. Haven't seen anything that would prove otherwise and I certainly haven't seen anything that would back up any point that he was an inferior QB than Chad Henne.

 

I've heard that it will really come down to interviews as to how well he does on draft day.

But I was rather wondering if 6-2 counted as a big enough targert.

I like Brandon Lafell more than Byrd anyways.

 

6-2, 6-3.....yep....if he can run.

 

[mod] You all know better. Keep this thread on topic please. [/mod]

 

Moss is actually the second best receiver statistically to Wes Welker - you know one of those servicable guys who no one can seem to stop, and he's outpacing Moss by a wide margin. So I guess looking at that one might think Moss is servicable in many ways. You'd think the guy with all the talent in the world would be the primary target, not the former UDFA who was cut by two teams before he finally stuck with Miami.

Oh by the way, this regime may disagree with you regarding both of those players as Camarillo is working on an extension to keep him here, and Ginn is seeing his role in the offense increase. So those who are much more in the know than all of us disagree with you as does the league itself. Do you commonly double or put a safety over the top of servicable receivers? You certainly don't begin contract extension negotiations with them half way through the year whilst leaving your supposedly good RT dangling in the wind.

I said the team will undoubtedly take a step backwards as most teams in our position do. If you care to examine the fact that next year we will play the NFC South and ADC South next year I'd make a dam good bet this team goes backwards. And, adding a WR chances are won't help us too much when we line up against the teams we will next year. A WR won't help us against the likes of the Saints, Carolina, Tennsessee, Indianapolis and the like, but players who can handle the dirty work up front on both sides will as most of these teams are already pretty dam stout at the POA. We are not, not by a long way.

I did walk on (and even that was a formality as the head recruiter told me to get fitted up without ever trying out, and I had to do this as was from Bermuda and never played a highschool, pee wee game etc. in my life) to Penn State (1994 our trip to the Rose Bowl) and then transferred to the University of Oklahoma and I have been around some good receivers in that time such Joe Jerivicius and Bobby Engram and both have had long successful careers in the NFL and Percy Harvin has to do a great deal of work if he wishes to last half as long in the NFL. I too laugh at the comparisons made between Ginn and Harvin as Harvin hasn't done anything in the league, whilst Ted Ginn has worked his way to getting praise from both inside and outside the organization after being villified by both previously.

 

I look at Percy Harvin as one of those guys where you would need a head office with a specific position and purpose for him. The guy is an incredible play maker, fast, shifty and is not known to put the ball on the ground. But, does a team look at him like Chris Johnson on the Titans as a shifty, quick running back, or will it be like the Steelers with Hines Ward as the do all WR?

Thats the real question for Harvin when I look at it. He has to fit into what a team is looking to do to utilize his talents. For me, I just dont think the Dolphins front office would have a slot for him like that as Ginn currently holds it down.

 

Yeah I'm guilty. I'll take my 5 minutes in the corner. I earned it.

 

You're just a trouble maker.

 

Boy, I was wondering what happened to a few of the posts in here.

 

Reminder to self, Mods are watching, especially njfinfan.

 

I suggest that everyone cool down right now.

 

I know I am always starting **** with people, wish I could just kick myself in the nuts and fix it. I guess this will have to do.

 

Apologies to everyone, that got out of hand. Over and out.

 

Larry English.

 

You really didn't.

 

I really appreciate your opinions Boomer (I'm with you on the Harvey issue as well lol)

But i am really curious about your opinion of if you think we would consider drafting a OL with either pick 1, 2a, or 2b... If so, what players do you think we would be looking at?

I ask that because like others I feel V. Carey is going to chase the money and go somewhere else leaving a void at RT. And while Thomas recieved a lot of praise during the preseason he is coming off a serious injury. I used to be a big fan of Satelle, but it seems like he is great in Pass Pro, but is relatively weak in Run Blocking (which is one of BP, Irelands, and Sparano's main objectives).

One of the biggest surprises for me this year is how little of a push our OL is getting on Running plays, especially up the middle. I think right now C and RG are huge holes for us and our killing us offensively.

Thank you!

 

Not to stir the hornets' nest but if one were looking to replace Satele at C then they may want to cast an eye towards Antoine Caldwell from Bama.

 

No worries dude.

It wouldn't surprise me to see us go OL in part because of the depth issues we've had, in part because of Carey and in part because there are going to be some pretty good juniors coming out that will knock a mid teens tackle from a normal year into the thirties or forties.

As Con said, Antonie Caldwell makes a lot of sense and we know that Ireland has been down to Alabama scouting the Tide hard. He's a force with a big bubble and excellent technique who understands leverage. Watch him go mano y mano against Peria Jerry and Ted Laurent for Ole Miss, 2 pretty damn good players in their own right and he holds his own, creates a push in the run game BECAUSE he gets his hands in perfect positions and can fire out to the second level.