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2007 Draft and why we suck.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Xeticus, Sep 19, 2008.

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  1. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    There are a few reasons why we're struggling. One of which is poor past drafting. Let's take a look at the 2007 draft as an example.

    1. Ted Ginn Jr. - Our first round pick and #9 overall. Sliding down the depth chart and has been replaced on punts and kick offs. You HAVE to hit on your first round picks.

    2. John Beck - So far hasn't worked out. Lost in training camp to Josh McCown and rookie Chad Henne. Once again a pick that we needed to be a hit.

    3. Samson Satele - Our first pick to be a solid starter. He's struggling a bit this year but of our first 3 picks is arguably the most successful.

    4. Lorenzo Booker - Traded to the Eagles.

    5. Paul Soliai - Backup NT but at least he's still on the team!!!

    6. Reagan Mauia - Waived

    7. Drew Mormino - Waived

    8. Kelvin Smith - IR

    9. Brandon Fields - Our Punter

    10. Abraham Wright - Waived.


    10 picks. Ginn, Satele and Fields are the only starters. 4/10 are not even on the team anymore. Beck's future with the team is a mystery. I don't see how you can call 2007 a successful draft for us and we have had years of bad drafts like this one.

    I think that the 2008 draft was much more successful for us and hopefully by next year questions about our QB, WR and DB situation will have been addressed. But it's going to take time because this franchise has been run into the ground by previous regimes.
     
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  2. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Another nail in the Cameron coffin.. A total waste of a draft with the exception of Samson, and who knows how good he is going to be down the line.... To think we had a franchise QB sitting there waiting for us and instead we took Ginn and his family. :(
     
  3. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Agreed.

    This team's history can be divided up into the following eras:

    1. Early years (1966-69)
    2. Shula years (1970-94)
    3. Jimmy Johnson years (1995-99)
    4. The crappy drafting years (2000-07)
    5. The Parcells years (2008-present)

    7 years of crappy drafts will devistate an organization.
     
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  4. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Jimmy wasn't all that great, neither was Shula towards the end. Yes, they hit on a couple picks (Bowens, Vincent, Surtain, Madison, Thomas, Taylor), but they were mostly average to bad drafts.
     
  5. vinivedivichi

    vinivedivichi New Member

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    That's crazy. JJ wasn't a great coach, but he stocked our defense with loads of talent in the short time he was here. If not for his drafts Wanny wouldn't have lasted as long as he did.
     
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  6. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I really don't know what you are expecting from picks 6-10. It is not unusual for 6th and 7th round picks not to make it through training camp, and certainly not unusual for them to not last beyond their 2nd camp. The fact we got 1 starter from those picks, as well as a guy who started a whole year for us, it isn't all that bad.

    Solia was and is still a project, but could still wind up being good. Let's face it he had a lot farther to go than many of us expected, and was certainly drafted on potential.

    Satele was great last year, and should improve this year as the line gels.

    Beck looked promising before being thrown out in crap playing conditions with a team that all but quit on him. I will chalk that one up to bad luck for Beck, but at least we invested a draft pick into a QB we could develop instead of someone else's cast off.

    Booker afforded us the opportunity to trade for two starters, as well as depth on the OL (and a possible starter at G down the line).

    Ginn, outside of returns hasn't impressed a whole lot. But it is barely into his second year on a team that frankly doesn't have a good offense, commanded by a guy without much of an arm, on a team that has an all new coaching staff. Pardon me if I give the guy until at least some point next year before I start calling for his head. It is not like he was super polished when he came out. Everyone knew he was drafted because of his big play ability and speed, not because of his route running.
     
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  7. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    This subject definitely hasn't been beaten to death.

    /sarcasm
     
  8. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Honestly with the team how it is now I don't think Miami would be a good team if all those picks were starters and were playing well.

    One draft does not make or break a team.

    Miami basicallys ucks because they have had 3 scheme changes in the last 3 years and each of the last 4 years nearly 50% of the team was changed. There is zero continuity.
     
  9. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I hear this reasoning from people but I think it's WAY overblown.

    We've had 3 scheme changes and turnover out of necessity from reacting to leaders which ran this organization poorly. Does that have an effect on team success? Of course it does.

    However, when you're starting with a team that has drafted absolutely horribly, it has much less of an effect. The biggest problem this team has had and the reason for so much player turnover is because we've been one of the worst drafting teams of the decade. Lack of talent acquisition is much more responsible for player turnover than changes of system. That should be blatantly obvious at this point.
     
  10. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Stocking the defense and sucking it up on offense does not equate to good drafting. We had ****ing Marino, and you can't help him hardly at all on O? Please.

    1996-
    1st - Gardener - a fine pick, too bad injuries happened
    3rd - Dorian Brew - who? exactly.
    3rd - Abdul-Karim al-Jabbar, formerly known as Sharmon Shah and famously Karim Abdul-Jabbar - Considering previous backs we had he was pretty good, but doesn't change the fact he didn't last more than 3 years as we traded him to the browns. I won't give JJ this one because of how many RBs he took in his time here.
    4th - Kirk Pointer - who? exactly.
    4th - Stanley Prichett - An ok FB for us. not good, not great, ok.
    4th - Lacurtis Jones - LB, who did what? Oh yea, nothing.
    5th - Jerris McPhail - more like McFail at punt returns
    5th - Shane Burton - DT, again nothing from him.
    5th - Zach Thomas - LB. Sweet, how luck are we a 2 time AA LBer lasts to rd 5 due to size concerns, yet we waited until after Burton to pick him.
    5th - Shawn Wooden - Can't expect much more from a 5th rder then what we got from Shawn.
    6th - Jeff Buckey - G - Who? exactly.
    7th - Brice Hunter - WR - umm, yea.

    1997 -
    1st - Yatil Green - WR - I feel so very bad for this guy since he did nothing wrong, but he did not help the team at all.
    2nd - Sam Madison - finally a pick on day one that showed longevity
    3rd - Jason Taylor - Two in a row, great work. We're lucky Jason was given time to develop by the staff though (unlike Ginn with the fans).
    3rd - Derrick Rodgers - LB from ASU, no problem with this pick. Proved to not make plays (good or bad), and was serviceable.
    3rd - Ronnie Ward - LB. Who again?
    3rd - Brent Smith - OT. No comment.
    4th - Jerome Daniels - OT. Who?
    5th - Barron tanner - DT. Who?
    5th - Nick Lopez - DE. Who?
    6th - John Fiali - LB. Who?
    6th - Brian manning - WR. :lol::no:
    6th - Mike Crawford - LB. Who?
    6th - Ed Perry - TE. Best LS in the league for a long time.
    7th - Hudhaifa Ismaeli - DB. Yea, i can't pronounce it, and it's a good then he never did anything so I'd have to.

    1998
    - Traded our 1st round pick, and we could have had Randy moss. :tantrum:
    1st - John Avery - RB. Biggest accolade came when he led the XFL in rushing. That says it all.
    2nd - Surtain - No need to explain.
    2nd - Kenny Mixon - DE. IIRC correctly he was ok for us, so I will give it to JJ, but it's close.
    3rd - Brad Jackson - WHO?
    3rd - Larry Shannon - WR. As good a WR as Moss per JJ. :pity::cry:
    4th - Lorenzo Bromell - DE. I will give it to JJ again.
    5th - Scott Shaw - G. Who?
    6th - Nate Strickwerda - C. Who?
    6th - John Dutton - QB. Guess he never worked out, huh? Oh, except in the AFL.
    7th - Jim Bundren - OL. Who?

    1999-
    2nd - James Johnson - RB. How many running backs is that over 4 years? 5?
    2nd - Rob Konrad - FB. Not a bad pick, but utilized totally wrong here.
    3rd - Grey Ruegamer - OG. I think he stuck around for a bit at least.
    5th - Cecil Collins - RB. Has spent more time in jail than on the field.
    5th - Bryan Jones - LB. Who?
    6th - Brent Bartholomew - P. And Cam was getting bent over for taking a P, JJ isn't though?
    7th - Jermaine Haley - DT. he was ok for a 7th rounder.
    7th - Joe Wong - OT. Who, once again?



    JJ didn't have great drafts here. His drafts were average overall. He either hit Gold or coal, not much in between. He "hit" on like 11 out of 44 picks. Granted, that may be better than what we have had recently, but I would hardly call his drafts great.
     
  11. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    certain players are for certain schemes. If a scheme changes from smallish linebackers to biggish linebackers and the draft before had some smallish linebackers, they are going to get cut.

    Of course you can't constantly replace 50% of the roster and then be a good team.
     
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  12. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    pete i couldn't agree with your post more. :up:

    and the "Jerris McFail at punt returns" comment actually made me laugh out loud. really. :)
     
  13. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Yes, I understand that, but the argument is a moot point when all our draftees aren't playing for anybody at all in any type of system.

    If you draft good players they'll either be able to adjust to systems or you'll be able to trade those players to other teams for something in return. That return is what will help you build into different systems.

    When you've drafted zero talent then your left to start over from scratch.

    That's as simple as it gets and the clear reason as to why where in such a hole. The change of schemes did not dig us into this hole..
     
  14. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I don't disagree.
    However, it dosen't change the fact that JJ at least added some talent to the team which caused it to become competitive. This post defending JJ was in response to someone comparing his drafts to Wanny's wasn't it?
    There's no comparison there, Wanny added nothing.
     
  15. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    i can't believe that he added nothing to the team.... i don't have time but if anyone can do what pete did for JJ's drafts then we could compare, numbers for numbers.. especially considering they had similar length-tenures. i can already say that JJ out-performed Wanny on the drafts, that would not be of question i'm sure... but i don't think wanny contributed NOTHING.

    which brings me to another point - JJ was a lot more involved in the personnel & draft process than Wanny was. How much of the draft credit do we give to JJ and how much do we give to Wanny?
     
  16. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    The worst move JJ made was bringing in the Franchise Killer, Darth Wannstedt. People defend Wanny for his record the 1st four years he was in Miami when he was able to win with the talent that was left to him by JJ. He did the same thing in Chicago with the talent that was left for him. The only problem was that he was in Miami longer than Chicago and he had more time to dismantle the francise. He left the team a shambles with no youth to build on and a major rebuilding project.
     
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  17. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Either way, they both had GM powers and made the final say. To say Wanny wasn't as involved would speak to why his drafts may have failed more often, as he wasn't as clued in as JJ.

    Lets also remember that if you hit on 4 out of 10 picks on average you are considered pretty good at your job in this league.
     
  18. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Wanny hit on solid players with Chambers, and Bell.
    He hit on a decent TE with Mcmichael and that's it.

    3 players in 4 drafts, not to mention his boneheaded player personel mgmt., his complete neglect of the QB and OL position and trading 2 1st round picks for a player that the entire league was wary of because of his well known mental issues.

    Wannstedt had complete control of personel just like JJ did so there's no difference in that comparison.
     
  19. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    true, but what you're forgetting is there are scouts who do the actual tape-watching, prepare reports, etc... there is a complete scouting department that gave most (if not all) the draft information input the coaches had. the only real hands-on input Wanny might have experienced was when he met with players for interviews at the combine, and what he saw on tv.

    We ultimately hold the head coach responsible in both of these cases, but its like faulting the president for losing a war. what about the guys who call the shots on the front lines? they are the ones who ultimately utilize the strategy and call the shots... the president just says "yes" and pushes the go button. :up:
     
  20. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    while giving up two first-round picks for Ricky may seem like the worst move ever, it really wasn't considering how else we spent our draft picks. what other first-rounder in the entire JJ & Wanny years gave us as much production as Williams? he was the league rushing leader in 2002 for starters, and even won the pro-bowl MVP (pointless award, i know, but it means we got some return on investment).

    Ricky had a solid but unspectacular year for us in 2003, and he's still here now and still a great athlete. so while that might have seemed a stupid move, we did get more out of ricky for those two first round picks than any other two first-rounders put together. ;) :up:
     
  21. Vengeful Odin

    Vengeful Odin Norse Mod

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    I'd give Wannstedt credit for finding these above average players:

    • 2000 - No One
    • 2001 - Chris Chambers
    • 2002 - No One
    • 2003 - Yeremiah Bell
    • 2004 - Vernon Carey

    Then there's second tier players who were average at best.

    • 2000 - Deon Dyer, Arturo Freeman
    • 2001 - Travis Minor, Morlon Greenwood
    • 2002 - Randy McMicheal
    • 2003 - No One
    • 2004 - Rex Hadnot

    Then there's the mistakes that only Wannstedt could bring.

    • 2000 - Todd Wade, Ben Kelly
    • 2001 - Jamar Fletcher
    • 2002 - Seth McKinney
    • 2003 - Eddie Moore, Wade Smith, Taylor Whitney
    • 2004 - Will Poole
     
  22. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yeah the scouting dept exists, but that doesn't mean that Wanny listened to any of it. You may be oversimplifying the process as well. Very rarely are scouts in charge or have much say in who is drafted. Often times scouts and coaches speak different languages and have serious disputes as to who should be taken where. And, after all of that the GM can still just say, I like this guy and no one can overrule him (except the owner but you get the idea). Having a scout and listening and incorporating his knowledge is another thing all together.

    Scouts have very little influence in anything. The coaches will take the information and recommendations of the scouts watch the tape and then give their own indications as to what they see. Scouts are simply information gatherers in many ways and if they have any say then it would be one if not the only team that did it that way.

    Some coaches didn't care what a scout said like Tom Landry, others like Brian Billick would always hear a scout out regardless of whether he agreed or not. If he didn't, he just say " I still like this guy" and that would eb end of the scouts' scope of influence. It all depends.
     
  23. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Todd Wade was a starter, and played decently for us for a while. he did go downhill, but he was better than the bottom feeders. Will Poole couldn't stay healthy, hardly Wanny's fault, and when he played that first year he looked good too.
     
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  24. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    i understand and agree 100% with what you're saying... but i think you may have completely missed my point. my point was that there are too many variables and factors invovled in that process. Unless any of us are JJ or Wanny himself, how can any of us know the exact level of input or knowledge for each pick? Sure, some coaches say "that's my guy regardless of what the scouts say or not", but other times the coaches just pick BPA on the board based on what their scouting dept devised. we don't know either way. the blame could lie with either or all parties.

    i just don't like it when the blame is unequivocably placed on ONE person for a lot of that stuff when no one has any real knowledge on it. The most we can do is blame him as the team leader for the "buck stops here" type-position regarding personnel shots.... nothing more, really.
     
  25. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    x2... i was just about to comment on that post. Todd Wade was a great player for us considering the rest of his teammates and drafting around that time.

    by my count that is 10 players who were good players for the dolphins under Wanny's drafts... one short of JJ's 11.... but point being Wanny didn't contribute "nothing".
     
  26. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Sorry. Got you now. :up:
     
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  27. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    no apology necessary bro, but i would value your opinion on that point. ;) :up:
     
  28. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Each team has a different dynamic in terms of the input, value and say a scout has in setting the board. A scout may recommend a player, and have his attributes etc down, but then it goes to the specific position coaches as far as I know to get their respective input on the kid. I'm pretty sure the GM gets the same scouting reports the coaches do, but I don't know the specifics of how they get together, who organizes who goes to scout, or if at all or the general big board.

    Looking for a grand scheme and applying it to all the teams would negligent to be honest, as each is different in organizational structure etc.

    However, the coaches grades, and comments on the players would have to be pretty heavily weighed in terms of setting the board. If the O-line coach had said that Ryan Clady is a better fit for wht we do than Jake Long, then chances are that would be taken under advisement and would to some degree influence the positioning of those players. After all a GM who doesn't value the opinions of those who will be in everyday contact with these players would be just plain stupid.

    I've heard stories where players are marked down in position based on character etc as an all inclusive grading scale (skill, measurables, game play, college coaches reports, tape, firends comments, character, private investigator comments - these people are a staple of the NFL grading system etc.) and then there are other scenarios where the players are ranked by skill as a player only, and a the character, injuries etc are simply noted on the side. It all depends on what each GM and FO wish to do.

    Some GM's are more defacto and only ask for tertiary input, others want everyone to have a say. But, at the end of the day there is only one guy to make the call, and ultimately IMO he should receive most of the credit or blame.

    I understand your point of what of the generals in the war who provide input and carry out the plan from on high. Well there are a few ways to go with that:

    1). That if the plan is flawed from above the underlings will fail regardless

    2). That the plan may be great, but the implementation and operation of the plan is bad because of the people involved. Bad scouts equals bad evaluation regardless of the plan.

    3). That both facets are completely flawed.

    4). Both facets work great together.

    5). The communication is awkward as scouts and coaches speak differently about players and use different terms. This si the biggest thing to me. Scouts want to know the type of players the FO and coaches want them to focus on. Trying to get the exact reference using two different languages makes it difficult to get on the same page. Also the level of information provided to the scouts will also influence what they bring to your door. Saban used to scout on size and very little else; he liked big guys. What this regime values appears to be size, commitment, and savvy. But I could be wrong.


    Personally, I think a regime that uses both to the best of their abilities will be successful. Scouts can provide mountains of information that a coach will never see in the limited time they get after the season to look at tape. Scouts have almost twice as long to gather and inspect/dissect the players.

    The blame should be all the way around to a degree, but at the same time the body only goes where the head takes you.
     
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  29. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    The reason why we have sucked for 10 yrs is due to bad drafting...2007 was not much of an exception...this should be no surprise to anyone...on the other hand, remember that you can't really evaluate a draft for about 3 yrs...

    Either way you look at it, we have a dearth of talent on this team and as a result are near or at the bottom of the league...
     
  30. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    I'm glad that this thread got people talking. I just used last year as an example. We have had many years of drafts where we didn't get a lot of talent. Now earlier Conuficus said if you 4/10 on average you are considered pretty good. I would say of the 4 players still around from the 2007 draft that Ginn and Beck don't count as hits. Maybe in a year or two they will develop into players we'd be happy to have around but right now they're worse than scrubs. Brandon Fields is a punter. I'd honestly call Satele the only real hit of the draft. You might make a case for Lorenzo booker as we actually traded him for some value.

    Dave Wannstedt. Just reading that name just makes me clench up. I remember when he was with the Bears. He slowly ground that franchise into the ground. One of his complaints was that as he didn't have GM powers he couldn't pick his own players. Well when he came here and took over for JJ he had GM powers and the result was the same. Each year he was here the team got a little worse and by the time he left the franchise it was gone from perennial play off contender to a joke. i think he is the single handedly most responsible person for our current predicament. Wannstedt was a disaster that we still haven't recovered from. With time I think Tuna and co can lead us out of the wilderness but Wanny really hosed us bad and Saban and Cam weren't the men to fix the problem.
     
  31. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Getting this done in 3 years will take one hell of an effort in the draft I will tell you that right now. If we get 4 players a year, which is the best you average then in 3 years you've added 12 players to a 53 man team. Those guy will need to be some gems, thats for sure.
     

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