2008 Mets!!! LETS GO METS!!!

"Section126 wrote:

I would have SOLD OUT to get him.

I would have been as excited to get him as I was to get Johan.

Well here's a better question for you. While I agree with you about harden's talent and the fact his stuff is absolutely electric and I regard him as a top 3 pitching talent, what would you do about the fact hes averaging 5.1-5.2 IP per start? Our bullpen blows a fair amount of leads and this is below the league average so every day Harden, Pedro, Ollie or Maine goes, we'd have a good chance that the Sp doesnt complete 6 IP. Doesnt that create too much work for the pen?

And also that leaves us with 6 sps...who's going back the other way? Its not Johan cause he makes too much. Its not pedro because he makes too much and is older which doesnt fit Oaklands plan. Its not Perez because hes in his walk year. Its not pelfrey because frankly hes our 2nd best pitcher right now. So its either Maine or Maine. And do you want to move Maine + for a guy who is basically a better version of John Maine with more injury questions?

I would have liked Harden had their been a need but there really wasnt unless you could have sent Pedro back the other way

"phunwin wrote:

Go get him, Omar!!!

As long as it doesnt include fernando fine. Im not trading that kid for anyone not named Arod, Soriano, Pujols, Utley, or Hamilton.

Normally i dont go crazy over prospects but Fernando is a pup at 19 and hes going to be special.

"Boik14 wrote:

Well here's a better question for you. While I agree with you about harden's talent and the fact his stuff is absolutely electric and I regard him as a top 3 pitching talent, what would you do about the fact hes averaging 5.1-5.2 IP per start? Our bullpen blows a fair amount of leads and this is below the league average so every day Harden, Pedro, Ollie or Maine goes, we'd have a good chance that the Sp doesnt complete 6 IP. Doesnt that create too much work for the pen?

And also that leaves us with 6 sps...who's going back the other way? Its not Johan cause he makes too much. Its not pedro because he makes too much and is older which doesnt fit Oaklands plan. Its not Perez because hes in his walk year. Its not pelfrey because frankly hes our 2nd best pitcher right now. So its either Maine or Maine. And do you want to move Maine + for a guy who is basically a better version of John Maine with more injury questions?

I would have liked Harden had their been a need but there really wasnt unless you could have sent Pedro back the other way

I think for the numbers involved, they would have taken Pelfrey straight up and might have sweetened the deal as well.

I am not saying I would destroy the team to get him...but I sure as hell would have gotten on the phone and asked Beane what it would take to get a deal done.

As for his Innings per start, it is a concern..but I like to think that a pitcher's maturing curve begins at 28 and goes through 34. I think Harden's best is still to come.

"Section126 wrote:

I think for the numbers involved, they would have taken Pelfrey straight up and might have sweetened the deal as well.

I am not saying I would destroy the team to get him...but I sure as hell would have gotten on the phone and asked Beane what it would take to get a deal done.

As for his Innings per start, it is a concern..but I like to think that a pitcher's maturing curve begins at 28 and goes through 34. I think Harden's best is still to come.

So you'd move Pelfrey who at this point is going deeper in to games at a younger age for Harden who is arby eligible soon and due a big contract? Why?

In addition, Pelfrey has basically been a similar pitcher to Harden the last few months minus the K's. His era is slightly higher but hes also still way ahead of Harden at the same stage.

"Boik14 wrote:

So you'd move Pelfrey who at this point is going deeper in to games at a younger age for Harden who is arby eligible soon and due a big contract? Why?

In addition, Pelfrey has basically been a similar pitcher to Harden the last few months minus the K's. His era is slightly higher but hes also still way ahead of Harden at the same stage.

Not saying I would have moved Pelfrey..just saying that they would have taken him instead of Maine.

I don't think Pelfrey should be included in any talks really.

I am just saying that I would have tried. I am not particularly impressed with what the Cubs gave up. Really..they only gave up Gallagher and Patterson (the only players I like in the deal) I think Beane got worked.

"Section126 wrote:

Not saying I would have moved Pelfrey..just saying that they would have taken him instead of Maine.

I don't think Pelfrey should be included in any talks really.

I am just saying that I would have tried. I am not particularly impressed with what the Cubs gave up. Really..they only gave up Gallagher and Patterson (the only players I like in the deal) I think Beane got worked.

I dont think beane had a choice. Move harden for the first reasonable offer before he gets hurt again then youre stuck with him in an arby year.

Also of note: Mets optioned LHP Willie Collazo to Triple-A New Orleans.

Collazo was up for just two days in place of Pedro Martinez. Martinez is tenatively scheduled to start friday. Hopefully he shows up ready to pitch.

From Adam Rubin's Blog- NY Daily News

The Mets have all but abandoned the idea of using Pedro Martinez in relief tonight. Instead, Martinez will throw on the side in preparation for Friday’s start against the Astros. “In the heat of a pennant race, it’s difficult to find that right situation,” Jerry Manuel said.

• Ryan Church is a go for batting practice today, but it might be indoors because of inclement weather. “My luck it’ll rain,” said Church, who joked he’d take swings one way or another, even if it was at reporters..

• Ambiorix Burgos, the hard-throwing reliever acquired from the Royals two winters ago, is visiting the Mets today. Burgos has been throwing off a mound for 20 days and expects to pitch in a minor-league game for the first time Saturday. He had Tommy John elbow surgery last August.

• Manuel indicated before the weekend that Argenis Reyes was in for a serious bump in playing time, yet Damion Easley is starting for a third straight game tonight. Manuel said the reasons are Easley is swinging the bat well and his quadriceps has improved. Manuel predicted Reyes would start Wednesday’s series finale.

• Manuel said he’d be intrigued about hard-throwing Binghamton closer Eddie Kunz joining the bullpen. But the interim manager said any such dialogue hadn’t yet reached his level yet, indicating nothing imminent along those lines.

Im excited at the prospect of Kunz getting here. We have so many finesse pitchers in the pen we can afford to deal one and promote a hard thrower like Kunz. This could be interesting in a good way.

Delgado looking to bunt in the 8th inning? who does he think he is? Carlos Beltran?

3 pitches later...homerun Dellllgottem :)

mets win 4-1
Ollie gets his 7th win. Beltran and wright with rbi hits.

Maine had an mri, has a strained rotator cuff but may make his next start. Shouldnt miss more than 1 start it seems.
Trade deadline shopping list
- Add a OF (Ibanez, Winn, Guillen)
- Add a reliever (Taschner, sherill)
- Add a 2B (Freddy Sanchez anyone? brian Roberts)....the words buy low mean anything there? Its probably wishful thinking but I can dream... :)

When did Heilman discover(and remember) he can throw a slider? The Marlins made him look like Koufax tonight. Please let someone keep and freeze this Heilman for the rest of the year.

"NyPhinfan wrote:

When did Heilman discover(and remember) he can throw a slider? The Marlins made him look like Koufax tonight. Please let someone keep and freeze this Heilman for the rest of the year.

he always has owned the fish.....few years back he threw a 1 hitter.....woulda been a no-no.....but (current met) louis castillo got a infield single.....

"NyPhinfan wrote:

When did Heilman discover(and remember) he can throw a slider? The Marlins made him look like Koufax tonight. Please let someone keep and freeze this Heilman for the rest of the year.

Pretty impressive after he went 3 innings the other night (Saturday).

5 innings in 3 days out of the pen.

"Eop05 wrote:

Pretty impressive after he went 3 innings the other night (Saturday).

5 innings in 3 days out of the pen.

lol is that really "impressive" ??? he used to be a starter.....5 innings, split up between 3 days.......impressive?

maybe i dont see it? :huh:

"SickFinFan33 wrote:

lol is that really "impressive" ??? he used to be a starter.....5 innings, split up between 3 days.......impressive?

maybe i dont see it? :huh:

You make a good point, but the reality is that Heilman is now a setup man. He hasn't been a starter in 3-4 years.

Relative to other setup men in baseball (those 8th inning and 7th inning guys), it's not an easy thing to do.

Many relief pitchers/setup men were once starters: Papelbon, Isringhausen, etc. But to see these guys pitch 5 innings in 3 days is extremely rare.

I guess the mentality is just different out of the Pen. IMO an ex-starter and setup man going 5 innings over the course of 3 consecutive games is much easier said than done.

"Eop05 wrote:

You make a good point, but the reality is that Heilman is now a setup man. He hasn't been a starter in 3-4 years.

Relative to other setup men in baseball (those 8th inning and 7th inning guys), it's not an easy thing to do.

Many relief pitchers/setup men were once starters: Papelbon, Isringhausen, etc. But to see these guys pitch 5 innings in 3 days is extremely rare.

I guess the mentality is just different out of the Pen. IMO an ex-starter and setup man going 5 innings over the course of 3 consecutive games is much easier said than done.

i wasnt putting you down, and im sorry if that came off as such....

im just saying, he probably threw a total of what 50-60 pitches? if that!!!....its not alot (when your making a good amount of money) in a span of 3 days...imo

"NyPhinfan wrote:

When did Heilman discover(and remember) he can throw a slider? The Marlins made him look like Koufax tonight. Please let someone keep and freeze this Heilman for the rest of the year.

He usually has a strong 2nd half. Call me crazy, but I think the hot weather makes his ball sink much better and hes a guy who has to keep the ball down.

"SickFinFan33 wrote:

i wasnt putting you down, and im sorry if that came off as such....

im just saying, he probably threw a total of what 50-60 pitches? if that!!!....its not alot (when your making a good amount of money) in a span of 3 days...imo

He threw about 60 pitches vs St Louis Saturday night in his 3 innings of relief during that 14 inning game. He threw about 30 last night. So 90 pitches in about 3 days is a little more impressive... :wink2:

"Boik14 wrote:

mets win 4-1
Ollie gets his 7th win. Beltran and wright with rbi hits.

Maine had an mri, has a strained rotator cuff but may make his next start. Shouldnt miss more than 1 start it seems.
Trade deadline shopping list
- Add a OF (Ibanez, Winn, Guillen)
- Add a reliever (Taschner, sherill)
- Add a 2B (Freddy Sanchez anyone? brian Roberts)....the words buy low mean anything there? Its probably wishful thinking but I can dream... :)

Sanchez is an interesting thought. I love the idea of buying low on a guy like that. He's a much better hitter than he's showing now and better defensively than what we've got, too. I'd love Roberts, but I can't see that happening.

Obviously, I'm all for getting an OF. I've been saying so for a long time now. Manny would be awesome, but that's not happening. I'm not remotely ready to buy the "Fernando Tatis is our LF" line. There's a reason he was out of baseball for a couple years and then was in the minors.

As for a reliever, I'd rather ride it out with our current group. Sanchez and Heilman are better than they've shown this year, and the reliever market is always way overpriced. Isn't Orlando Hernandez coming back soon? Use him in middle relief. Or this guy...

"Boik14 wrote:

From Adam Rubin's Blog- NY Daily News
• Manuel said he’d be intrigued about hard-throwing Binghamton closer Eddie Kunz joining the bullpen. But the interim manager said any such dialogue hadn’t yet reached his level yet, indicating nothing imminent along those lines.

Im excited at the prospect of Kunz getting here. We have so many finesse pitchers in the pen we can afford to deal one and promote a hard thrower like Kunz. This could be interesting in a good way.

I worry that it might be too much, too soon for Kunz, but giving him a shot could be worthwhile. I'd like that BB rate to come down some, but another hard thrower in the pen would be welcome.

"phunwin wrote:

Sanchez is an interesting thought. I love the idea of buying low on a guy like that. He's a much better hitter than he's showing now and better defensively than what we've got, too. I'd love Roberts, but I can't see that happening.

Obviously, I'm all for getting an OF. I've been saying so for a long time now. Manny would be awesome, but that's not happening. I'm not remotely ready to buy the "Fernando Tatis is our LF" line. There's a reason he was out of baseball for a couple years and then was in the minors.

As for a reliever, I'd rather ride it out with our current group. Sanchez and Heilman are better than they've shown this year, and the reliever market is always way overpriced. Isn't Orlando Hernandez coming back soon? Use him in middle relief. Or this guy...

I worry that it might be too much, too soon for Kunz, but giving him a shot could be worthwhile. I'd like that BB rate to come down some, but another hard thrower in the pen would be welcome.

We're on the same page on Sanchez, I think hes a perfect 2/7 hitter who can drive teams nuts. Move Castillo, Parnell, and a low minors prospect maybe and eat half of castillos contract....

Duque isnt close to returning. The bunion is still bothering him and he refuses to have surgery on it. Dont count on him for anything at this point.

The only reason I say deal for a reliever is because Feliciano has an era of slightly over 20 since the ASB, thats not a typo. Sanchez's era is about 7 over the same time period and I think hes tiring. We have 4 lefties, can we move Show or Feliciano for a hard throwing righty?

"SickFinFan33 wrote:

i wasnt putting you down, and im sorry if that came off as such....

im just saying, he probably threw a total of what 50-60 pitches? if that!!!....its not alot (when your making a good amount of money) in a span of 3 days...imo

No problems here, I didn't take it that way at all :up:

50-60 pitches I'm ok with. But as Boik pointed out it was much more. In fact he threw 37 last night and 57 on Tuesday night totaling 94 pitches within a 3 consecutive game period.

I'm Heilman's biggest critic, but lately he's getting the job done when needed, especially throwing 2 big innings last night after throwing 3 innings/57 pitches on Saturday.

"Boik14 wrote:

He threw about 60 pitches vs St Louis Saturday night in his 3 innings of relief during that 14 inning game. He threw about 30 last night. So 90 pitches in about 3 days is a little more impressive... :wink2:

i guess........a starter does it in 1 night....and he used to start, im just saying its not impressive imo:wink2:

"SickFinFan33 wrote:

i guess........a starter does it in 1 night....and he used to start, im just saying its not impressive imo:wink2:

Heres the thing though, Heilman hasnt started in 3 years bro. Its impressive for any relief pitcher to be throwing that many pitches in that short a time in this era. :up:

"Boik14 wrote:

Heres the thing though, Heilman hasnt started in 3 years bro. Its impressive for any relief pitcher to be throwing that many pitches in that short a time in this era. :up:

lol i guess....

the human arm hasnt changed too much in a long time, and guys used to throw 12 inning games....40 complete games in a season and what not....im just saying....I M O....its not impressive, im sure he'd agree, hes getting paid real good to throw 90 pitches in 3 days....tough job...:shifty:

"SickFinFan33 wrote:

lol i guess....

the human arm hasnt changed too much in a long time, and guys used to throw 12 inning games....40 complete games in a season and what not....im just saying....I M O....its not impressive, im sure he'd agree, hes getting paid real good to throw 90 pitches in 3 days....tough job...:shifty:

1. Larger strike zones back in the day
2. Smaller hitters with much less bat speed back in the day too.

The evolution of baseball has certainly helped hitters.

I'm totally against the people that think that pitchers are inferior now to what they were back in the day.

Although I do agree sometimes pitchers are coddled a bit too much, there's certainly a reason why you don't see as many complete games anymore and the reasons I mentioned above are the main reasons.

The logic is just flawed by the "purists" who think pitchers are 'wusses' today.

So the following athletes have evolved:

Football
Basketball
Baseball hitters
Track athletes
Tennis
Soccer

But the only ones to devolve are baseball pitchers?