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Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by NJFINSFAN1, Mar 22, 2008.
Gee, yah think lol.
i heard he doesn't want to.. but i just heard it on the radio so i'm not sure where its coming from
Read up on his quotes all year, he was not a good guy at all.
On to the trade, seems we gave up alot, I don't mind Heilman, but Joe Smith was one of our better bullpen pitchers, Carp has a ton of pop and who know's what Delgado we get this year, and while Edny was on the down side of hitting, he still won many games with his glove.
I don't know to much about the guys we got beside's Putz. Maybe they are thinking about Murphy at 1st base some?
Carp has pop but no position and will never be a full timer at the mlb level because he cant hit lefties. Best case for him seems to be a poor mans Mike Jacobs except as a DH.
Three-team blockbuster nets Mets Putz | MLB.com: News
I'll say, lots of moving parts and I bet for Omar it was fun to figure out all the parts coming in the door as long as you got what you needed, at some point you dont care was goes out the door.
Nice, love Putz as your setup guy! And Green for 7th is huge. The Big Apple is doing themselves proud during these winter meetings.
Why oh whyyyyy did the Mets have to get rid of Aaron Heilman.
We're going to miss him in Philly.
Let the "best end of Bullpen" debate begin:
Yanks: Marte to Joba to Mo
Mets: Green to Putz to KRod
who you got???
Holy ****, what a deal, Omar!!!
They gave up VERY little for Putz. Heilman absolutely had to go. Chavez for Reed is basically a wash. Carp was blocked at the big league level and had Ike Davis coming up behind him. I'll miss Joe Smith, but if that's the price for Putz, you do that every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Ummm did you forget about Farnsworth to Sokia?
Seriously there's no debate it's Joba to Mo clearly as both of those guys are dominate. But the Mets aren't too far behind and it's no knock on them.
Ill be honest, anything with Mo, count me in for his side. He is so absolute lockdown its insane. Even Yankee haters cant deny this. Theres no closer in the history of the position I would trust as much. Can you beat him? Yeah sure, theres a 1 in a million chance you win the lottery too. Joba should be fine though I do wonder about him in a big spot (For starters the bug incident in cleveland shows a lack of ability to just focus).
While I think there is value in having your best reliever pitching the 8th and having 2 guys who were top 5 closers in 2007, Joba is just as good as Putz and Mo is better then K-rod right now...
That said I think the Mets can definitely win with what they have now in the 8th and 9th. The only way the pen can get better is if we are able to obtain Street still or if Wags can get back by mid august or so and still show a bigtime fastball...then he can pitch the 7th.
The Mets and Cubs are reportedly talking about a Jason Marquis deal.
There was talk about Aaron Heilman for Marquis as recently as yesterday, but it's believed the Mets turned down that deal weeks ago. Scott Schoeneweis for Marquis would make a lot more sense. Both are entering their contract years. Schoeneweis is owed $3.6 million, while Marquis is due $9.875 million.
- Per Rotoworld
Dont like it if it allows the cubs to free up money for Peavy. ESPN.com was reporting those talks were off but Marquis isnt much of answer. As bad as Show is, Marquis' contract is just as bad. Unless they will take Castillo off our hands that should be a no go.
The Cubs are offering to pay some of Marquis' salary as part of a deal. I would swap Schoenscheisse for Marquis in a minute. I'm not a big fan of Marquis, but he's a fifth starter who can eat innings, not get shelled, and isn't tied to a long term contract. The latter part is important here. I'm not mortally opposed to overpaying a guy for one year, but three or four? Forget that. Especially if that guy is named "Jon Garland", who seems to be Plan B for the #5 starter job, and would (I think) cost a first round pick because he was offered arbitration.
As for how this affects a deal for Peavy, forget it. I'm not a fan of helping a potential rival out, but the Cubs will get him one way or another. If they can't get us to eat a sufficient amount of Marquis' deal, someone else will. Or they'll get Peavy now and clear salary later.
Edit: ESPN reports that Peavy to the Cubs is dead.
agreed on Garland but Marquis is the same crappy pitcher Garland is. 5 era and 4-5 Er every time out. Skip this slag, we can get that from Niese.
On another note: Utley has a 1.500 OPS against Show.
He's pathetic and useless. He needs to go.
On another note do you guys think this pen is good enough?
Stokes (middle relief)
Sanchez (middle relief)
Parnell (middle relief)
By the way, Stokes stats vs lefties below...Ouch!
Also Im borrowing this from another board for to show just how little Smith would be missed. Initially when I heard about smith being involved I was kind of on the fence about it because I felt it was giving up one good pen arm and only getting one back. Well, this should put an end to that idea:
So after seeing that, many of you are probably thinking that Green is a slight downgrade in the bullpen.
But observation of their split statistics reveals something peculiar:
Vs. Lefties: .827
Vs. Righties: .578
Vs. Lefties: .903
Vs. Righties: .583
Even though Smith had the upper hand on Green in total OPS against, Green has Smith beat in both OPS against vs. lefties and vs. righties.
This is an example of Simpson's paradox.
A lurking variable, in this case number of plate appearances against lefties and righties, makes the total OPS absolutely deceiving.
Smith faced right handed batters in 210 plate appearances and left handed batters in just 61.
Green, with 201, also faced a similar number of right handed batters, but he also had to face a left handed batter 157 times!
Something must really be wrong with management over in Seattle, because they've taken an outstanding ROOGY and given him a 4.67 ERA by using him as an ordinary MR when he really can only be effective if he faces lefties sparingly.
If Jerry uses Green properly, we will not miss Joe Smith very much.
I don't think that's good enough. Obviously K-Rod, Putz, Green and Feliciano are fine but Parnell might not even start the year in the MLB as he was horrible in the AFL and I'm not a fan of the post-taxi ride Sanchez. They probably need at least 1 more arm, maybe 2 (then again which MLB team doesn't need pen help?).
As much as Sanchez was regarded as a failure in 2008, he posted an ERA+ of 97, so he wasn't THAT bad, especially when you consider that a couple poor outings in August skewed his numbers upward. I'd like to get another reliable arm in the 'pen, but I'm okay with counting on Sanchez, Feliciano and Green for the 6th-7th innings, with Kunz, Parnell and Stokes fighting it out for the remaining roles, even though Kunz and Parnell both stunk up the AFL. I'd like another lefty, too, since righties just tore up Feliciano last year.
The Mets had way too many guys with ridiculous splits in the pen last year: Feliciano, Schoenscheisse, Stokes, and Smith pitched 206 2/3 innings between them, and all were very susceptible to R/L matchups. Green doesn't help that, but a healthy Sanchez would. Sanchez is better against righties, but not so much that you cower in fear if the other team wants to pinch hit a lefty. Remember that the batting team usually has the initiative when it comes to a R/L matchup. It's much easier to have a pinch hitter come in the game than a relief pitcher. So extreme splits are a bad thing.
I liked the idea of signing David Weathers, whose splits are essentially neutral, but he accepted arbitration and will presumably be back with the Reds. Juan Cruz is still out there, and boy, he'd be a fantastic addition to the pen.
Cruz wouldnt be bad but Biemel and Ohman are still out there as well and will cost less. I think Ohman would be my choice since it looks like Schoennothing will be dealt and we need a decent lefty along with Feliciano.
On another note: The Mets have placed talks concerning a trade for Jason Marquis on the back burner for now, according to the New York Daily News.
The Mets are focused on bringing back Oliver Perez or singing Randy Wolf. With the way they're budgeting payroll this offseason, it would be a shock to see them take on the $9.875 that Marquis is owed for his 2009 services. He's just not worth it.
Yes! Schoenweis dealt, per Metsblog.
The Mets have traded Scott Schoeneweis to the D’Backs for RHP Conor Robertson.
The 27–year-old Robertson was 0-1 with a 5.14 ERA in nine games with Arizona this past season.
Robertson is 29-13 with a 2.82 ERA in 217 career-minor league games, during which he struck out 382 batters in 305 innings.
Here's what I could find for a scouting report on Robertson, after he was part of the Dan Haren trade:
His K rate is impressive, which fits what the Mets are looking for in the pen, but more than anything, this looks like a straight salary dump. Robertson's minor league numbers are okay, but not spectacular apart from the K rate; an impressive 11.31 per 9 IP. 25 wild pitches in 300 innings strikes me as a pretty high number (10 last year, in 71 innings!), and makes me question that "good command" tag.
My guess is that Robertson has a shot at being the 11th or 12th man in the pen, but more than anything, they just wanted to dump Schoenscheisse's salary, and that's fine by me.
We need to sign Joe Nelson who was not tendered by the Marlins, he was their best relief pitcher last year, he wants $850,000 and the Marlins offered $600,000 so they did not tender him.
Agreed. I pointed this out in the offseason thread. Only the Marlins would non tender their best reliever over a couple hundred thousand. Nelson carries some risk because of all the arm injuries hes had but really how cheap can you be?
Also non tendered were: Daniel Cabrera, Ty Wigginton, and Chris Capuano. Capuano is coming off an injury but could be worth a ST invite as hes a lefty with some zip and has had success before. Cabrera is basically a RH Ollie Perez so he could make for a decent #5 option; let him and Niese fight it out maybe.
You gotta love the Marlins. I'd absolutely give Nelson a shot.
Cabrera is like a RH Ollie...only if you took out those starts where Ollie goes 8 innings, strikes out 10 guys and walks 1. 478 walks in 841 big league innings...YIKES! I like Cabrera's stuff, but I just don't think he's ever going to harness it. He's started 146 major league games, I think it's time to accept that he is what he is: a pitcher with great stuff and zero control over it. Also, that 95/90 K/BB ratio last year is just horrifying.
Now, all that said, I'd still take a chance on him over a stiff like Jon Garland. At least there's a CHANCE that Cabrera will pull it together, and he wouldn't cost anything but money.
Damn first Heileman, and now Suckenweise leaves. I will miss those guys.
2 developing stories per metsblog:
1. We seem to be the frontrunner for Lowe though we seem to want his price to come back in to the range of K-rod
"…from what i can gather, the Mets would be willing to give lowe a similar contract to what they gave Francisco Rodriguez, i.e., a three-year deal, worth roughly $12 million per season…however, i believe it will take more money per year to get him, mostly because at that level other teams will become interested…i do believe he can be had for a three-year deal, though it may need to cost four years before all is said and done…we’ll see…"
2. We are the front runners to sign Ken Takahashi, a Japanese reliever who has an element of deception to his game. As with many of the Japanese reliers I fear his usefulness is overstated and teams will catch on after half a year but you never know. Takaishi Saito's stats in Japan were anything but good and hes been a top flight closers for a handful of years now.
"The Mets are the front-runners to sign Japanese free-agent reliever Ken Takahashi, according to NPB Tracker, the premiere resource for Japanese free agents.
According to the report, Takahashi hopes to sign with a new team by the end of the year.
The 39-year old Takahashi was 8-5 with a 3.50 ERA in 21 games last season for the Hiroshima Toyo Carp."
2. We are interested in
Do you think Lowe/Perez is an either/or sort of deal? That is, if we sign Lowe, we close out any chance of signing Perez? I suspect that's probably the case, but man, I'd love to go into the season with a Santana-Lowe-Pelfrey-Perez-Maine rotation, with Niese as the sixth starter.
Yeah Im pretty sure the budget is going to be about 145m. And for the record I hope its Lowe. I dont want Ollie's inconsistency for the next 4-5 years.
I would also prefer Lowe to Ollie. But I'm okay with having Ollie as a Plan B, since the focus appears to be on Lowe first.
Heres a plan B for ya...What if Pettite doesnt accept the NYY 1 year ultimatum for 10 mil and we come along and offer something like 2/25? Short term contract with a big game pitcher who happens to be a LHP. Just sayin...not the worst alternative I can think of.
Actually, I'd rather see us offer Ben Sheets a deal like that.
So would I but I think we're steering clear of any injury prone players. And I can understand why they would feel that way after the way the last 2 seasons have broken down for us. The risk/reward with Sheets is huge. He has an 86-83/4.03 career record/era but its skewed but some injury plagued seasons. However Petitte is a safer bet injury wise and a proven big game pitcher. Just saying, its not a bad option if we're trying to avoid giving a long term deal to a SP. Certainly better then giving Randy Wolf 6m or Ollie 4 years and 12-14 mil per.
Ive read it in a few spots Oswalt could get dealt as well if Houston is trying slash payroll (which is why they non tendered Wigginton). Thats a guy I would break the prospect bank for and deal either Flores or Fernando.
Phillies just resigned Moyer, along with Chan Ho Park. It's gonna be a sick lineup:
And we are not done yet.
That rotation would make me pretty sick as well. You do know that Moyer is 46 and Park was signed to be a reliever right? Blanton is bad, myers is inconsistent at best. So you have exactly 1 good pitcher on your staff, Hamels, who is an injury risk in any given year. I would argue Hamels is the player you can least afford to lose...which is why I hear we're taking line drive practice at Hamels pitching arm especially after what he had to say this week about the Mets
I know some Met's fans are upset about what Hamels said, BUT he was asked on WFAN, the Met's main radio station, "Do you think the Mets choked last year?" That is kind of a loaded question. They practically put the words in his mouth. It wasn't like they said, "What do you think the Mets will do next year?" They wanted him to say, "Yeah, I guess you could say they choked last year and the year before, because nobody could beat them three years ago," or something like that. It was kind of taken out of context.
I know everyone is talking about Derek Lowe, but I compared him to Jaime Moyer and the stats are pretty similar over the last five years in terms of wins/losses, with a slightly lower ERA to Lowe. The Phillies are never going to overspend or open their wallets for anybody. They look at the Ferraris but end up buying the Porsche.
There still are a lot of talented guys out there and I don't want to see Manny Ramirez or Pat Burrell in LF for the Mets. I think there are still a lot of deals that will be made before April. I do think Putz and KRod are huge upgrades over Heileman and Schoenweis so teams will just have to get to you guys early in the game.
As far as what hamels said on WFAN, there were a 1000 better answers then the one he gave if he didnt want to ruffle the feathers of the players nevermind the fans. He could have said something like "No, I just thought we were a better team that went out and took it from the Mets both years" and thereby not fueled the fire. But hey, Im not complaining because he was right. I hope the mets take what he said and use it to work that much harder in the offseason and take every game more serious now.
As far as the Lowe/Moyer comparisons there are some similarities in stats though Lowe does worry me away from Dodger stadium. His splits are pretty drastic with a sub 3 era at home and a 5 era on the road. But his leadership and innings would be invaluable for the mets.
As far as Burrell I am with you as far as not wanting to see him in LF for the Mets. Ughhh. Its Dunn or Manny or stay with the Tatis/Murphy platoon, unless there is someone else out there available via trade that I havent heard of.
One thing I do like about the Mets pen going forward is that now guys like Sean green, pedro Feliciano and Brian Stokes can be what they really are: lefty or righty specialists. Manuel will be able to play matchups knowing that Putz can go more then an inning and that his 8th and 9th inning guys are some of the best around.
However going forward, Carlos Delgado better hit like he did in the 2nd half of last year because if he doesnt those 799 runs (Tied 2nd) wont happen. Minaya hasnt touched the offense and he better look hard at where its going to come from.
Does Putz have a nickname? I bet he will get one to go with that name if he messes up. He throws really hard. I have watched a few Mariners' games on tv and have been to Safeco in person, and he is a quality closer. I know some Met's fans didn't want to give up Endy Chavez. He always seemed to be a thorn in our sides.
Looks like Manny is not getting any big offers and the Dodgers aren't budging on their offer. Boras might have to eat humble pie and settle for less money? Buster Olney said they may have to wait it out on Manny and some other guys until around Spring Training.
I think as far as the Big Picture, it will come down to four teams in the NL: Phillies, Mets, Cubs and Dodgers....I think those will be the division winners and the wild card will likely be from the NL East. In the NL East, I don't see the Marlins and Nationals doing much. The Braves are re-tooling and I could see them giving teams some problems but not compete for the NL East for another year or two. Can't wait for the season to start back up, and Cactus League baseball in Arizona.
Wasn't Shawn Green your rightfielder.,...the guy you got from the Dodgers? You have a bullpen guy with the same name? I haven't heard about him yet. Oh wait, he was with the Mariners I think?? I think the Rockies had a Shawn/Sean Green?
As far as I know Putz doesnt have a nickname. I know when I saw Heilman was involved my immediate reaction was "one putz just got traded for another putz!"
I was even happier with his acquisition then I was with K-Rod's because I knew we were going to get a quality closer whether it was Rodriguez or Fuentes or Wood but to get a set up guy who is also a top 5 closer in any given year was awesome. Plus Putz walks no one. His .69 whip a couple years ago was one of the lowest ever recorded (may have actually been the lowest now that I think about it).
I dont think anyone wanted to see Endy moved but hes a replaceable piece in the scheme of things. Endy for all his amazing fielding and good late inning baserunning is basically the same player as the Mets got back, Jeremy Reed, except reed is much younger, has a much higher upside with the bat, and makes a 1/3rd of what Chavez makes.
As far as the big picture I think youre leaving out one very good team: The Colorado Rockies. Sure they traded their best player and pitching in colorado is always a huge question but they are a very deep team and their in a very bad division. Either them or the D-Backs will beat out the Dodgers who if they don't retain Manny in my opinion are back to the same old struggling Dodgers.
If anyone is interested Baseball Prospectus has released their top 11 prospects for the Mets:
Baseball Prospectus | Future Shock: Mets Top 11 Prospects
1. Fernando Martinez, CF
2. Wilmer Flores, SS
3. Jefry Marte, 3B
4. Brad Holt, RHP
5. Jon Niese, LHP
6. Reese Havens, SS
7. Jenrry Mejia, RHP
8. Ike Davis, 1B
9. Bobby Parnell, RHP
10. Eddie Kunz, RHP
11. Scott Moviel, RHP
Just Missed: Dillon Gee, RHP; Francisco Pena, C; Cesar Puello, OF
Ranking Challenges: The question of whether Martinez or Flores should be number one haunted me for a while, but in the end I saw Flores as what Martinez was a few years ago, except that Martinez has since accomplished something at the upper levels. From there it's a mix that is difficult to sort between players nearly ready and players just drafted, and there are realistically eight to ten solid candidates for the bottom three slots.
Personally i thought Holt should have been #3 with a ridiculous heater and a plus Curve. He may get up to the bigs before Martinez or Flores and thats no knock on them.
I'm a little surprised that Fernando wasn't a five-star prospect, actually. Flores is an exciting prospect. Just 16 years old, but he posted an 842 OPS as a shortstop in rookie ball. Okay, his fielding was terrible (19 errors in 58 games, and a 4.67 range factor), but still, a very exciting prospect to hit that well at that young an age. I like Holt a lot, too; his K rate is just insane.