http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090108&content_id=3737479&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb Who will join Rickey Henderson in Hall class? History favors former MVP Rice in final year of eligibility 2009 candidates • Harold Baines • Jay Bell • Bert Blyleven • David Cone • Andre Dawson • Ron Gant • Mark Grace • Rickey Henderson • Tommy John • Don Mattingly • Mark McGwire • Jack Morris • Dale Murphy • Jesse Orosco • Dave Parker • Dan Plesac • Tim Raines • Jim Rice • Lee Smith • Alan Trammell • Greg Vaughn • Mo Vaughn • Matt Williams
Henderson is among 10 newcomers on the 23-man Hall of Fame ballot, the smallest in history, which was mailed to the writers in early December. Those ballots had to be returned with a postmark dated no later than Dec. 31.
Jeff Idelson, the president of the Hall, will make the announcement via MLB.com and the MLB Network during a Hall of Fame Election Special at 1:30 p.m. ET on Monday with a prime-time special later that night at 9 p.m. ET, celebrating the careers of those players who made it. Former Yankees and Indians second baseman Joe Gordon was elected by a Veterans Committee this past December and will be inducted along with anyone selected from the writers' ballot on July 26 in Cooperstown, N.Y. Rich "Goose" Gossage was the only player elected by the BBWAA last year. And Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr. were the last first-time electees in 2007. Ripken earned 98.5 percent of the vote (537 of 545 ballots cast) and Gwynn had 97.6 percent (532 votes). A candidate needs 75 percent of the ballots cast for election.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090112&content_id=3740171&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb How can Rickey not be 100% unanimous.....does anyone think Greg Maddox should not be 100% in 5 years from now? This idea that no one should be unanimous is silly. Rickey easily was the greatest leadoff hitter, #1 steals guy, and difference maker in the history of the game. I sure hope this non sense ends soon. Rice was long overdue....good for him. 2009 Results Player Total Votes Percentage Rickey Henderson 511 94.8% Jim Rice 412 76.4% Andre Dawson 361 67.0% Bert Blyleven 338 62.7% Lee Smith 240 44.5% Jack Morris 237 44.0% Tommy John 171 31.7% Tim Raines 122 22.6% Mark McGwire 118 21.9% Alan Trammell 94 17.4% Dave Parker 81 15.0% Don Mattingly 64 11.9% Dale Murphy 62 11.5% Harold Baines 32 5.9% Mark Grace 22 4.1% David Cone 21 3.9% Matt Williams 7 1.3% Mo Vaughn 6 1.1% Jay Bell 2 0.4% Jesse Orosco 1 0.2% Ron Gant 00% Dan Plesac00% Greg Vaughn00% Wow, Big Mac and his steriods are still way on the outside looking in!!!!
Wait, on the intro to sportscenter they just said "Red Sox great" Rickey Henderson got into the HoF. I know he played for multiple teams, but I always thought of him as an Athletic. Is he more well known as a red sock, or is this just typical ESPN pandering?
I think he played like 70 games for the Sox so if ESPN said that it's a little much. EDIT: Like RonnieBass said maybe it was just a mistake and they meant to say Red Sox great Jim Rice instead of Rickey
I would write it off as just a mistake. And kudos for Rice, should have been in there a LONG time ago.
i freaking love that Jim Rice finally made it to the HOF... growing up close to Hilton Head Island, where Jim Rice grew up, he was the closest thing to a celebrity athlete we had back then. very cool.
it is ridicules. i think i read 2 people sent in empty ballots if only so to ensure that Henderson did not get in unanimously. Its stupid, who in there right mind does not think that Henderson, Maddox, Ripkin and the like are hall of famers?
While I agree with you in the end it really doesn't matter. At least they got voted in. No one will remember whether it was with 98% of the vote of 89%. I do however think those writers that don't vote for 'locks' like Maddux, Henderson, Ripken, Gywnn etc should explain themselves with a valid argument and if they can't make one they should get their vote taken away for a year or 2. I know it will never happen but one can dream.
If youre going to put in Rice then Dawson better be next. Their stats are very much alike as are their resumes. And anyone who didnt vote for henderson just lost every drop of credibility they had. He was as much of a sure thing as putting in Maddux; you shouldnt even have to think about it. In Henderson's case i think its simply spite as he rubbed some the wrong way and that overshadowed his play in the eyes of some. Only logical explanation anyway.
This should make for an interesting discussion: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/090112&sportCat=mlb I disagree on some of them, specifically 14, 19, 26, and 32 I think somehow, someway Jose Reyes has to be on that list for the following reason: If Jose has four years comparable to his last four he will have 120+ triples, 110+ HR, and 500+ SB. The list of major league players who have surpassed those numbers in all three categories is Lou Brock. Utley (with another 4-5 good years) should find his way. With 4-5 more good years he would close out his career with an 840 OPS putting him in the same class with only 4 other 2B. I would say Posada (people regard Piazza as first ballot; its only fair since his stats are in the same zip code), Ryan Braun (Hey they put Longoria on the list), and Prince Fielder could easily build cases or have have cases already. The Schilling/Drysdale comparison was the first thing that sold me on Schilling as a HOFER. I never realized it was that close.
Amen. well deserved. I second that... ricky sure was fun to watch!! Ricky Henderson is an oakland Athletic. Gotta love ricky.
Henderson should have gotten 100% of the vote. The greatest lead off man ever. The greatest stolen base man ever. It's a disgrace someone would vote against him being in the hall of fame.
I think we really need to wait before we start talking about guys like Reyes, Braun, Utley etc making the HOF. I mean right now they're on the right track but a lot can happen. I disagree about Posada though, I really don't think he's a HOFer right now. He'd need to put up some more big seasons and numbers at the catching position and I don't think he's long for that position much longer. If he can stay healthy behind the plate and maybe hit 350 HRs and drive in over 1000 RBIs then we can talk. I was always on the fence with Schilling but I think his post season stuff pushes him over the top (especially the bloody sock game and winning that first WS in Boston as voters are going to love that whether it's fair or not) and not to mention his numbers and how dominating he was during the steroid era.
Dawson, and Blyleven need to get their deserved 75%...no ands, ifs, or buts. That said, per this list of 40, the top 10 are slam dunks, 11 - 24 I have no issues with...well some I love more than others - some may take all 15 of their eligible years (20 years removed from the game -ala Jim Rice)...but starting with Sheff @ 25, I have lots of questions marks and dont see many getting in from that point in, and clearly from 30 to 40, time will tell - lots of production is still required.
Rice was a poor choice. I'm not surprised that he made it, but it's unfortunate that the BBWAA apparently bought that "most feared" (translated: "I can't prove my case with objective evidence, so I'm going to make a nebulous claim that can't be disproven by objective evidence") hooey. Rice was a very good player for a shorter than usual period, who benefited tremendously from his home park. He belongs in the Hall of Very Good. That's it. If his election opens the door for Mr. .323 OBP (Dawson), I'm going to be very disappointed. As for Henderson and a unanimous election, I don't really understand the big deal about this. No one has ever made it on 100% of the ballots. Tom Seaver set the record with 98.1% or something like that. Why are we intent on this idea that some player must get every single vote? Who cares? He still gets into Cooperstown and is a mortal lock to give the most entertaining speech since Steve Carlton.
Yeah, theres just something very disturbing when guys like Rickey Henderson, or Willie Mays or Hank Aaron dont receive 100% of the vote. You just kind of feel like you dont have to like the player to recognize greatness when you see it, just acknowledge it when the time comes. So the question the becomes what freakin game were these people who didnt vote for Rickey watching cause it sure wasnt the same game everyone else was! I just dont understand what Henderson could have possibly done better? Could have been a little more press friendly? Maybe, but some guys just see the media for what they are (leeches. Sorry Boomer). Could have not been playing cards during the NLCS in the Mets clubhouse? ya I suppose. But what does any of this have to do with his on field performance? Nothing! Its not like the guy did anything so wrong or malicious to anyone. I dont know, stuff like ths just confounds and confuses me.
No to Blyleven. He holds some very bad records too like for HRS allowed, walks. I believe he would have one of, if not the worst era of any pitcher in the hall. I mean CC Sabathia is tracking a similar career path and I wouldnt put Sabathia in and hes a heck of a lot more dominant then Blyleven ever was. Ya, the point of the article was that those guys he mentioned are players he thinks will be in the HOF if they can continue to replicate the numbers they have produced so far. If Utley, Braun and Reyes continue, they're going to find their way. When you type in Posada, the name that appears as most similar through age 36 is Carlton Fisk with a 918 similarity rating. When they say this is close, its really close. Posada: 221 HR Fisk: 230 HR Posada: 1483Games/4982AB's/1379 Hits Fisk: 1549Games/5521AB's/1537 Hits Posada: 883 RBI Fisk: 807 RBI Posada: 277BA/380OBP/477SLG/857OPS/124OPS+ Fisk: 278BA/350OBP/469SLG/ 819OPS/122OPS+ The position players who come up on this list aren't very impressive but its interesting to note how Fisk and Posada were eerily similar through this point in their careers. Posada's situation is very unique. Hes got a very good resume and hes a catcher which makes his stats all the more impressive. 4 WS rings 5x AS 5x Silver Slugger 2 top 10 MVP finishes Baseball Reference has him right on the cusp and with another 2 good seasons hes probably in. I dont think he'll sniff the 350hrs you feel is necessary but only 1 catcher has (Piazza; Bench hit like 15 as a 1B) so there's no shame in that. I think 1000RBI and maybe another 2 300 seasons with good OPS might put him over the top. Posada's HOF Standards: Batting - 30.9 (254) (Average HOFer ≈ 50) Rice HOF Standards: Batting - 43.0 (114) (Average HOFer ≈ 50) And remember Rice was an OF. Posada plays the most physically difficult position in the game as a catcher. He has quite a case now.....
I didn't realize his numbers were so close to Fisk but I don't know I just don't see Posada as a HOFer. I mean watching the guy for over 10 years I think he's a very good player but not a HOFer (kind of like Bernie Williams). It's no knock on Posada but I just don't see it. With that being said I think it hurts Posada that he got a late start in the MLB due to Girardi being around and taking away his playing time. But you're right if he does put up 2 or 3 more good years behind the plate than I think he'll get in.
I know there are at least 2 writers who are refusing to vote for anyone right now, because of the steroid issue. I also know that for awhile, there were writers who would refuse to vote for anyone until Pete Rose was admitted (I don't know if that's died down or not since it's become abundantly clear that Rose did, in fact, bet on baseball while he was managing the Reds). And, there are some writers who don't believe that anyone should get in on the first ballot, which seems rather petty to me, but whatever. In any case, I can't imagine you'd find any of the writers who voted who would try, with a straight face, to argue that Rickey Henderson isn't legitimately a Hall of Famer. I think it's probably these writers who are using their vote for other reasons, not that they feel Henderson fell short.
I have one, and only one, question: how can someone who successfully utilizes a stat like OPS+ possibly be opposed to Bert Blyleven? Dude, I KNOW you understand sabermetrics. I KNOW you're not dazzled by stupid stats like "pitcher wins" and "saves". You talk about Blyleven holding some unsavory records like home runs and walks. I don't know where you're getting the walks thing. You know who holds the record for career walks? First ballot, undisputed Hall of Famer Nolan Ryan, and no one else is even in shouting distance of him. Ryan had 2795, and Steve Carlton is second with 1833. Ryan's a full 34% over the second place guy in terms of walks allowed. And yet, not a soul seriously disputed his Hall of Fame bona fides. Blyleven is 29th, owing largely to the fact that he pitched an insane number of innings (14th all time). He had 2.4 BB/9 IP, which is pretty good. He's FIFTH on the all time strikeout list. (6.7 K/9 IP, also good) Yes, Blyleven led the AL in home runs allowed in 86 and 87. Of course, he pitched in the Metrodome, which in those days was about as extreme as hitter's parks played, so we need to account for that. He also pitched a whopping 538.7 innings in those two seasons, leading the AL in innings pitched in 86 and good enough for 4th in 87. I'd be more surprised if he HADN'T given up a ton of homers in those two seasons, given how much he pitched and where he pitched. Yet despite giving up gopher balls aplenty, and walks aplenty in 87, he still had a 107 ERA+ in 86 and 115 in 87. It's well worth noting that Blyleven, despite having a down season in 87 (at age 36, btw), was a major contributor to the Twins' world championship, posting a 3-1 record, a 3.42 ERA and a 21/5 K/BB ratio in the postseason. He gets a rep as a career loser, which is unfair, since he also was a major reason the 79 Pirates were world champs. In fact, for his postseason career, Blyleven had a 4-1 record, 2.47 ERA and a whopping 36/8 K/BB ratio.
If you put Blyleven in are you putting in Jack Morris too? Because Morris was the most dominant pitcher aside from Clemens in the mid 80's and early 90's? Morris has a better resume then Blyleven, and better stats. And yet I dont hear the battle cry for him.... Morris: 5x all star 7 top 10 finishes for Cy young 2x led AL in wins Ace of 3 WS winning teams 254-186 W/L 105 ERA+ 5 top 10 finishes in era 8 top ten finishes in k's HOF Standards: Pitching - 39.0 (73) (Average HOFer ≈ 50) Blyleven: 2x all star 4 top ten finishes in CY Young voting ERA+ 118 287/250 W/L 1x 20 game winner (19 one other year) HOF Standards: Pitching - 50.0 (38) (Average HOFer ≈ 50) What hurts Morris is inconsistency from year to year. What hurts Blyleven is consistency from year to year and not having anything spectacular on his resume, meaning he was consistently average or maybe slightly above. I just dont understand where all the support comes from for him? He would easily be, in my opinion the worst Hall of Famer (which I know is a contradictory sounding statement in itself but you get my point....). So help me out here bro, why the heck does Bert Blyleven, king of the Gopher Ball belong in the HOF?
You pointed it out yourself: Blyleven's ERA+ is 13% better, and his HOF score is right square in the middle of the Hall. Morris falls short. Morris has a 3.90 career ERA, which would be the worst in the Hall. This is during a time when the average ERA was about 4. Again, you note the 105 ERA+. Throw out the wins numbers. Wins are a stupid stat for pitchers; a starting pitcher can only control about 20% of the result of a game. The rest (hitting, fielding, the other pitcher and his own relievers) are beyond his control, yet we look at pitcher wins and losses as some ultra-important statistic. Blyleven was on a TON of bad teams over the years. If he'd had those mid-80s Tigers or early-90s Jays teams behind him, he'd have shot past 300 wins without a problem and you and I would be arguing about Adam Dunn or Mike Cameron for the 87th time. You can file those "all-star" numbers, Cy Young finishes and the like under that same category; good pitchers on bad teams have always been ignored in favor of the guys with the exalted big win totals. Morris gets a rep as a "money pitcher", but the numbers show Blyleven was better in the postseason. Better K rate, better K/BB rate, better ERA and (gasp) a better win-loss record. The "money pitcher" rep stems mostly from Morris' phenomenal 10 IP shutout in the 91 Series. Make no mistake, that's right up there with Don Larsen and Curt Schilling in the postseason heroics pantheon (I think that was the game where Tom Kelly wanted to pull him, and Morris shouted "who do you got that's better than me?" and Kelly just walked back to the dugout, which just adds yet more awesomeness to an already awesome performance), but one game does not a Hall of Famer make. Otherwise, Mark Whiten would be a Hall of Famer. Make no mistake, I have less objection to Morris than many of my fellow sabermetrically minded geeks. I wouldn't vote for him, but I wouldn't pillory anyone who did. It's just that Blyleven should go first. The things over which Blyleven had control, he was better than Morris. Oh, and that stuff about Blyleven being the king of the gopher balls? Morris had a higher home run rate. Morris gave up a dinger every 9.8 innings, and Blyleven surrendered a tater every 11.6.
