A very weak year....I would be happy/OK if it was only Santo!
Larkin was highest vote-getter @ 62% last year. But can he jump up to 75% this year? If no one else to vote for, perhaps.
Raines? Bagwell? Mattingly? Morris?
2012 candidates
• Jeff Bagwell
• Juan Gonzalez
• Barry Larkin
• Edgar Martinez
• Don Mattingly
• Fred McGriff
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Rafael Palmeiro
• Tim Raines
• Lee Smith
• Alan Trammell
• Larry Walker
• Bernie Williams
• Other candidates
Page 1 of 2
-
-
Larkin, Raines and Bagwell are no brainers and absolutely should be in, no doubt about it.
I would vote for McGwire and Edgar Martinez as well.
But as far as the other guys, nope they're not HOFers. -
Not for me....and not really sure how I feel about Bagwell.....next year, Bonds and Clemons add to the debate.
-
Why not Bagwell? Power hitter (played in a huge home ballpark for most of his career), very good defense, very good base running (200 SBs for a 1B is pretty impressive), got on base 40% of the time. Career .297/.408/.540/.948 with 449 HRs, MVP award. From 1991 to 2005 only 1 player had a better WAR than he did (Barry Bonds). He's a no doubter.
As for McGwire, again the only knock on him is steroids however he never failed a PED test while he was playing. The guy was the premier power hitter for his generation and got on base. Can't really see how you can punish a guy for doing something that wasn't against the rules while he was playing.
If so let's just ban or not vote for any of the players who took greenies (which are now banned). And if they did that the HOF would be a very empty place.
As far as Bonds and Clemens, they absolutely should be in the HOF too. Same arguement for them with McGwire. Plus how can you have a HOF without two of the best players in MLB history? If you want to punish them fine, don't invite them to the cermony or put a line in their plague that they admitted to taking PEDs. But they should be in, the HOF is a museum after all. -
Well as you know, I am not in the mindset or camp that every year SOMEONE must be voted in. I am fine if an entire generation didnt match what I think the standards of the HoF are.
I know those standards have been watered down with some of the awardees in recent memory and some by the VETERANS committee too.
Bagwell is a nice baseball player - his overall numbers do not wow me, they dont equate the sum of their parts to a HoF total...so to me, I dont label his career as HoF worthy in the grand scheme of things considering when stacked against the games greats.
Will be interesting to see what the voters think on many of these names in this very weak class. -
based on what you added after my above response.....
We have had this discussion since PEDs came about, as of now, nothing has changed in my mind. Keep them out for tarnishing the game and its stats and measurements.
Not an ounce of sleep is being lost over this in my mind.
Maybe one day I will change, but not for now - they arent two of the best based on how they cheated the game and distorted their otherwise valid arguments for inclusion.
The HoF is not empty without them....its a wonderful place as it stands right now! -
Hey I'm all for a small HOF. I don't think people should be elected each year just to have someone elected. However I think you're completely underrated Bagwell's impact and just how good he was when he played, he was a 5 tool player at 1B, which is unheard of. I believe BP did an article ranking the current HOF 1B compared to Bagwell and the only other 1B in the HOF that had better careers than he did were Gehrig, Foxx and I honestly forget the other player but Bagwell ranked 4th in that list.
EDIT: I think I heard that last line on the MLB Network during a HOF special because I couldn't find the article, after doing a quick google search. -
But does that extend to amphetamines too? Because those had an effect on the game as well and is a PED too (some players will argue that they had more of an effect than steroids/HGH did). If so we need to start removing guys from the current HOF then.
-
What was the measurement criteria??? Top 4????
Gehrig
Foxx
Murray
Greenberg
Pujols
Killebrew
McCovey
Sisler
Others: Thomas, Mize, McGuire, Bagwell in some order (and that isnt including the old school guys like Anson, and Brouthers) -
No, again, I am not in the camp that PEDs are Greenies are in the same neighborhood.
-
Pujols isn't in the HOF, it was only HOF 1Bs. I think it might have been WAR, not sure. I will keep searching for the article.
-
Then why is it a banned substance now if it's not in the same neighborhood?
-
Fine, but neither is Bagwell....so just saying, if you are ranking the best of all time, even if only in HoF currently, no way is he top 4 (if voted in)!
-
I guess because "Performance Enhancing" when it comes to significant strength increases, or faster recovery time, is properly viewed as being totally different on the collection of number than simply "alertness" in the grand scheme of producing STATS that equate to HoF worthiness.
Alertness does not equate to FASTER reaction time necessarily at its core....but PEDs does equate to strength or recovery time at its core. It taints the accomplishments more than Coffee, Cigarettes, or Amphetamines or Cocaine does to the human condition. -
For me:
Crime Dog
Tim Raines
Jack Morris
Rafael Palmero screwed himself so badly, a pity, but it will be awhile before I think he should go into the HoF. -
But Pujols is completely irrevelent to this debate though. I simply brought up that what was discussed on the MLB network about how Bagwell would be ranked 4th among 1B HOFers based on WAR. WAR doesn't equal best all time, it's simply another stat to measure a player's value or how good that player is. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, just passing it along.
EDIT: Can't find the article, so I'm now 100% convinced I heard it on the MLB network. -
Ok, gotcha......outside of WAR.......I cant covince myself that Bagwell is among the games 5 best 1B of all time. Maybe to 10...comfortably top 15.
I like him, but he is an interesting case for HoF voting. And PEDs for him, may or may never be part of it - would wager some voters are thinking it, however. -
Fred McGriff but no Bagwell? That's certainly odd. Bagwell > McGriff.
I don't agree with Jack Morris at all, his numbers just don't match up and even if Palmero didn't take steroids I don't think he was a HOFer. He had the base numbers the voters love (500 HRs, 3000 hits) but he has never close to being an elite player. He was more of a number compiler and had the benefit he staying healthy and playing in great hitters ballparks. -
[TABLE="class: boxed"]
[TR]
[TD="class: header, bgcolor: #ffffff, colspan: 9"]HoF First Basemen BOLD Indicates Statistical Leader For HoF First Basemen[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4d3201"][SIZE=-1]Name[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #4d3201"][SIZE=-1]AVG[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #4d3201"][SIZE=-1]OBP[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #4d3201"][SIZE=-1]SLG[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #4d3201"][SIZE=-1]HITS[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #4d3201"][SIZE=-1]HR[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #4d3201"][SIZE=-1]RBI[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #4d3201"][SIZE=-1]RUNS[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #4d3201"][SIZE=-1]SB[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].329[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].395[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].446[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,995[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]97[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,879[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,719[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]247[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].308[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].361[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].435[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,930[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]86[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,575[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,600[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]315[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].310[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].369[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].500[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,313[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]219[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,422[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,177[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].342[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].423[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].519[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,296[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]106[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,296[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,523[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]256[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].297[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].353[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].499[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,351[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]379[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,365[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,131[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]142[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].296[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].394[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].394[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,273[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]20[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]596[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]797[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]401[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].317[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].397[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].486[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,467[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]138[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,322[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,620[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]244[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].325[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].428[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].609[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,646[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]534[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,922[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,751[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]87[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].340[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].447[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].632[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,721[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]493[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,995[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,888[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]102[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].313[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].412[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].605[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,628[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]331[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,276[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,051[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].297[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].342[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].452[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,778[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]148[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,020[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]819[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].256[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].379[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].509[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,086[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]573[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,584[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,283[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].270[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].377[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].515[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,211[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]521[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,555[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,229[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].312[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].397[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].562[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,011[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]359[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,337[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,118[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].287[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].359[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].476[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]3,255[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]504[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,917[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,627[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]110[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].279[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].344[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].463[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,732[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]379[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,652[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,272[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].340[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].379[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].468[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,812[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]102[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,175[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,284[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]375[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"] [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].341[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].393[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"].506[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]2,193[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]154[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,078[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]1,120[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce"]56 [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Does Bagwell deserve to be on this list???? [TABLE="class: sortable stats_table row_summable"]
[TR]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: left"]Year[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: center"][/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, align: center"][/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc, align: center"][/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]G[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]PA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]AB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]R[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]H[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]2B[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]3B[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]HR[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]RBI[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]CS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]BB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SO[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]BA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]OBP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]SLG[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]OPS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, align: center"]OPS+[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]TB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]GDP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]HBP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SH[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]SF[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, align: center"]IBB[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: stat_total"]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: left"]15 Seasons
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2150[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9431[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7797[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1517[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2314[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]488[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]32[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]449[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1529[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]202[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]78[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1401[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1558[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].297[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].408[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].540[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].948[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]149[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4213[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]221[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]128[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]102[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]155[/TD]
[TD="align: left"][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: stat_total"]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: left"]162 Game Avg.[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]162[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]711[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]587[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]114[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]174[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]106[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]117[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].297[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].408[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].540[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].948[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]149[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]317[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: left"][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE] -
Yes based on that list he ranks (out of 22, including himself and the 21 current HOFers) 12th in BA, 5th in OBP & SLG, 10th in Hits, 6th in HRs, 9th in RBIs, 8th in Runs and 7th in SBs. Is he the best on the list? Of course not, but he wouldn't be the worst either. Add in his defense and playing in a big home ball park (hurts his power numbers) and on some bad teams (hurts his RBIs and run totals) he falls right the middle of the pack.
-
Barry Larkin is now a HOFer. Congrats to him.
How Tim Raines still isn't in is unreal and a true crime. -
Yeah, McGriff was a bigger piece on better teams and was consistently a 35-40 hr/100 rbi guy, he is 2 short of 500 for his career.
As for Morris, what makes him HoF worthy to me is he was so durable, for so long, IP's, CG's, and imo, he is worth the vote, his problem is he was also quite the ******* to media iirc. -
Ths is MLB after all, Larkin to me, was just a good player, Raines was a do it all player, he is a HoFer.
-
Irrelevant in reality......
Again, I think Bagwell is about the 10-15 best 1B of MODERN baseball....he is a fence guy depending on how voters lump him in, or keep him out of the PED thinking.
will be interesting to see. -
Larkin with 86% of the vote....wow...big jump in numbers.
Not having the voters feel there was anyone else to list on the ballot totally helped him. -
Bagwell's overall career numbers are better than McGriff's as were his year averages. And I'm sorry but you can't credit McGriff for being on better teams while discrediting Bagwell for being on bad ones.
And just because a guy threw a lot of innings doesn't make him a HOFer. Morris' numbers just aren't good enough. If you compare Morris' numbers to guys currently in the HOF they just wouldn't stack up. -
Raines' problem was Rickey Henderson was better so people just automatically forget about Raines (plus playing the peak of his career in Montreal didn't help either_. Raines was a damn good ball player and got on base more than Tony Gwynn did, in less PA to boot. The guy is so underrated, he should have been in the HOF years ago.Nappy Roots likes this.
-
He made the teams that good.
Juan Marichal? -
Back in the day, you'd look at the league leaders and you'd see Raines in the top 5 of Hits, Sb, Runs, triples, yr after yr, he was just an outstanding ball player who mostly played in smaller markets.
Henderson's peak he was in NY in the 80's. -
It's not irrelevant though, the Astrodome was a huge ballpark and hurt his numbers. If Bagwell played in Fenway Park or another good hitter's park for RHH his overall numbers would be much better, he'd have more HRs, a better BA & SLG. Plus being on bad teams hurt him in the runs scored and RBI department. That's why people like to use WAR because it factors in ball park factors.
-
McGriff or Bagwell made their teams that good?
You probably should have went with Don Sutton instead of Marichal. Just because there's a player or two in the HOF now that probably doesn't belong doesn't mean it's ok to lower the standards today. -
Of course its irrelevant, that argument has been used and used and used. HoF doesnt take that into account and you know it. Either you produce the numbers worthy or not, its not about What Ifs for injury or ballparks, or pitchers on the mound opposing you, vice versa, etc.
I know we try to use that as a measuring stick, but its not relevant in Bagswell case at the end of the day. -
[TABLE="class: wp-table-reloaded wp-table-reloaded-id-15"]
[TR="class: row-1 odd"]
[TH="class: column-1 colspan-3, colspan: 3"]
2012 Hall of Fame Votes
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-2 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Name
[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]Votes[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]Yrs on ballot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-3 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Barry Larkin[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]495 (86.4%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-4 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Jack Morris[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]382 (66.7%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-5 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Jeff Bagwell[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]321 (56.0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-6 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Lee Smith[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]290 (50.6%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-7 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Tim Raines[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]279 (48.7%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-8 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Alan Trammell[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]211 (36.8%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-9 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Edgar Martinez[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]209 (36.5%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-10 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Fred McGriff[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]137 (23.9%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-11 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Larry Walker[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]131 (22.9%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-12 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Mark McGwire[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]112 (19.5%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-13 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Don Mattingly[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]102 (17.8%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-14 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Dale Murphy[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]83 (14.5%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-15 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Rafael Palmeiro[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]72 (12.6%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-16 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Bernie Williams[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]55 (9.6%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-17 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Juan Gonzalez[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]23 (4.0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-18 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Vinny Castilla[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]6 (1.0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-19 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Tim Salmon[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]5 (0.9%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-20 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Bill Mueller[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]4 (0.7%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-21 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Brad Radke[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]2 (0.3%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-22 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Javy Lopez[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]1 (0.2%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-23 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Eric Young[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]1 (0.2%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-24 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Jeromy Burnitz[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]0 (0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-25 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Brian Jordan[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]0 (0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-26 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Terry Mulholland[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]0 (0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-27 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Phil Nevin[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]0 (0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-28 even"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Ruben Sierra[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]0 (0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row-29 odd"]
[TD="class: column-1"]Tony Womack[/TD]
[TD="class: column-2"]0 (0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE] -
The thing is though is how player's are judged nowadays compared to even 10 years ago is so different, and will be different 10 years from now too. That's why using a stat like WAR is helpful in that regard. The days are over when voters simply look at a pitcher's "wins" or a batter's "RBIs" or "BA". People have discovered their are better stats out there to judge players such as OBP etc.
It looks like Raines, Bagwell and Morris will all eventually get into the Hall with the way their vote % increased. -
[TABLE="class: cms_table_wp-table-reloaded cms_table_wp-table-reloaded-id-15"]
[TR="class: cms_table_row-18 cms_table_even"]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-1"]Vinny Castilla[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-2"]6 (1.0%)[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_row-19 cms_table_odd"]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-1"]Tim Salmon[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-2"]5 (0.9%)[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_row-20 cms_table_even"]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-1"]Bill Mueller[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-2"]4 (0.7%)[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_row-21 cms_table_odd"]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-1"]Brad Radke[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-2"]2 (0.3%)[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_row-22 cms_table_even"]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-1"]Javy Lopez[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-2"]1 (0.2%)[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_row-23 cms_table_odd"]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-1"]Eric Young[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-2"]1 (0.2%)[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_column-3"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
these BBWAA voters need to be kicked out for wasting our time! :pity: -
Its really hard to say with so many "more deserving players" coming onto the ballot starting in 2013.
P.S. and with or without PEDs, I could see the vote for Bonds and Clemons being high based on enough voters using the argument that PRIOR to PEDs they produced HoF numbers. Its a valid argument for those two. -
It's a slippery slope though if you let them in based on that thinking though. But yes if Bonds and Clemens end up getting in that will be the reason why.
-
Yup, think about next year though...rules say a max of 10 names can be on a HoF Ballet (and most do not list 10 names)...so
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Schilling
Sosa
Piazza
Bagwell
McGwire
Palmeiro
Thats 9 right there...especially if you feel Bonds and Clemons from PED-era should be in HoF regardless of their tarnishments.
If so, that opens up for all others I would wager of the PED era...so those would be the top 9 I guess....who would be the 10th from the 2012 and prior list to be the 10th?
Aside from Bagwell the top were Morris, Smith, Raines, Trammell, Martinez, etc.....
Its going to be fun debates and outcome next year no doubt! -
Bonds, Clemens, Raines, Piazza, Biggio and Bagwell should all be in the HOF in my opinion.
I'd still vote for McGwire too. I think Sosa and Schilling are on the fence but I think IF Morris goes into the Hall it will be hard to not put Schilling in (as he was a better pitcher than Morris was) and even so there seems to be a lot noise about Schilling's post season numbers, which are outstanding. I wouldn't have a problem with Schilling getting in (I admit I'm biased) but he's not a 1st ballot guy, probably take him 4 or 5 years. -
I thought Morris's post season numbers were outstanding as well?
As for the HGH players, tough call, doubt they get much support as the BBWA is a very conservative group, doubt they relent.
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