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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by finfansince72, Oct 12, 2014.
Me too man...gonna be hard to let this one go. I will, eventually, of course, but wow...
I've been a pretty big supporter of Philbin his entire tenure here up until those last 2 timeouts. I'm completely done, I would be fine if we was fired tomorrow. You cannot let that happen, those two decisions cannot be made at ANY level of football, especially at a professional level. I was completely dumbfounded.
First question was: Why pass instead of run the ball?
Philbin's answer: He and the staff knew the QB they were up against and before the game decided that in those situations they were going to go for the first down, no matter what.
So...... wait, what?
Apparently that also the reason they went for the 4th and 1. Had it been in the second half, he said, maybe it would have been different...... o_0?
The most frustrating thing about this loss is that it's difficult to take away positives because the negatives are so glaring.
When looked at it in a vacuum, we SHOULD be praising Tannehill for a showing resiliency in the 2nd half and gloating about the D in the 1st.
Instead, here we are AGAIN questioning Philbin and his staff. They have to go.
That is the worst part to me. Look Green Bay winning this game isn't the issue, they have a better team than we do, the fact that we clearly had chances to win this game and were held back by terrible decisions on the part of the coaching staff just makes it tough to swallow. Rodgers is a great player, usually you would just tip your hat if he puts together a last minute drive and move on but we clearly had multiple chances to put this game away or make better coaching decisions to put players in a better opportunity to win and we blew it. We lost this game by making bad decisions and thats just inexcusable.
How about this one?
If Cortland Finnegan could make a simple tackle on that fake spike play, time runs out and we win.
Finnegan was atrocious in this game.
Didn't they call a TO on 4th and 10 for the packers? In what bizarro world do you call a timeout and let the reeling Packer offense regroup? Philbum is the worst of the worst.
Fake spike. SMH
Easily one of the most frustrating games I can remember in a long time.
So, I've been watching Dolphin losses just like this that go back to the mid 80's. Back then it was a bit more excusable because it was still a running league even though we had Marino. Time and again, the Dolphins would forge into a 4th quarter lead on Marino's back, get the ball back with a few minutes left, and go conservative. Shula still expected his team to run the ball well - and they were terrible at it. It happened a good bit in the Wanny era as well.
But, in this NFL era - where rules are geared toward benefiting the offense and the passing game, you can never take your foot off the gas unless you have a prohibitive lead.
This loss was completely on Philbin at the end of the game. As others noted so well above, the run-pass-run scenario was entirely inconsistent. If you want to run the clock and put it all on your D - run the ball 3 times to run the clock down as far as possible (but even then, at least do something imaginative with the run). But, even then, that's a bad strategy against a great QB.
You have to be aggressive and go for a first down - even if you pass three times. That is where this league is. It's not the 70's, or even the 80's. Teams score all the time in the last two minutes of a game. Especially when they are using 4 downs instead of 3 because of their desperation. There was simply too much time on the clock to try to run it down.
More than that, you are only up by four. The thought process really should have been, "We need a FG on this drive to get at least a tie and go into OT" - given the chances GB drives for a TD. That should have been the mentality. Play aggressive, think FG - but still let the clock run when you can. That keeps the offense playing with a sense of urgency and keeps the Packers D on their heels. As it was we played right into their D's hands.
This loss is entirely on Philbin for that series of downs. And, the timeout on 4th and 10 on the GB TD drive was also a failed strategy. You give your players some rest but at the same time you let Rogers and the offensive mindset regroup and find a play that could help them. If our D doesn't have enough adrenalin to carry them on that 4th and 10 - or be mentally ready - that's bad coaching preparation.
Of course, there are plenty of plays to blame players. But, the fact is, Philbin set up the players to fail, not to win. They would have won in spite of the coach - and that is never a good scenario. He needs to take the blame for this. That he likely won't do that (based on his blaming the players right after the game) is also a strike against him.
This was a game Miami had every chance to win and it would have been a very significant victory for them moving forward - record-wise and confidence-wise. Unfortunately, Philbin. Super frustrating dealing with that ineptitude.
Dan Patrick: "The Dolphins ... if that were late in the season, that loss would be a fireable offense. Inexcusable ..."
I'm really glad that both Rodney Harrison and Dan Patrick called out the Dolphins coaching staff, last night and this morning. I think that as a national narrative builds up that Joe Philbin is a bad coach, Steve Ross can fire him without too much hand-wringing and it won't discourage quality candidates from taking the job.
This is really excellent.
Right call a qb boot to the right with run pass option,if pass is there quickly take it, if not run and stay in bounds. Gives the option an Ryan can run
There isn't? If Finnegan manages to tackle the guy in bounds on the fake spike we win. Had that happened the decision to run on third down would have won the game, why am I the only one that can see this?
If he would have attempted the pass you guys would have found something else to whine about, especially if the pass attempt results in a sack/strip/turnover like what happened last year after the bye vs Buffalo.
The real irony for me is if we would have attempted the pass then Philbin would have used his timeouts to try to conserve time in the event they got the TD, which of course again people would have complained about.
Our guys didn't make the plays we needed to with the ball in hand. Their guys did. Its as simple as that. You guys expecting Philbin to out duel Aaron Rodgers through masterful time out usage are being ridiculous.
Joe Philbin explained that they had met as a staff, all of the coordinators and him, and decided that in those kinds of situations against this particular quarterback they would go for the 1st downs no matter what. And so when it came to that sequence of downs where they passed on 2nd & 9 and then ran on 3rd & 9, that's what they did.
The problem of course is that if you're going to pass on 2nd & 9 to try and get the 1st down then why are you running on 3rd & 9 knowing full well it won't get you the 1st down?
The answer I don't think I WANT to hear is that Lazor called that run play because he genuinely thought it might get the 1st down. Should that even be a possibility we think about? Well, yeah. Because he's done it before. Lazor has called run plays this year on 30% of their 3rd & 7 to 3rd & 10 situations this year. Only one other team has dialed up a run play on 3rd & 7-10 as often (as a percentage) as the Dolphins this year.
But going back to the meeting and the decision, this is really vintage Joe Philbin. As a result of this meeting he created a self-imposed rule and then he rigidly stuck to it no matter whether the surrounding circumstances called for adaptation. That's pretty much his M.O.
This rule would've been great if Miami were leading by only 3 points or fewer. Yes absolutely you cannot count on an Aaron Rodgers failing to lead his offense down the field into field goal range. Yards in the mid-section of the field are too easy to gain.
HOWEVER, with the Dolphins up by 4 points that genuinely changes the circumstances. Rodgers would now need to march his offense all the way down the field AND cap off the drive in the red zone where spaces get tighter and things get harder. And if you run out the clock, burn all their timeouts, AND take the 2 minute warning away from them...then they have 1:50 to do that, as Armando Salguero recently calculated.
I'm sorry but no matter what rigid self-imposed rules you've placed on yourself, that's a very low percentage situation against a defense that had physically harrassed Rodgers all day, and the percentages increase dramatically when you give them the 2 minute warning and even start calling timeouts for them. But that's not Philbin. He made a rule.
If Finnegan makes that tackle, We win IN SPITE of the dubious calls by Lazor, Philbin and Coyle.Thats a fact. When Non phin fans call out this coaching staff on TV and in the papers...I know that my eyes and gut are not lying to me. Maybe thats why you are the ONLY one not seeing this.
Its funny everybody seems sure that the percentages would have been more in our favor had we just done something different, but nobody can agree on what that different thing would be. One guy says we surely win if we just pass it on all 3 downs. Another guy saying we should have ran it on all 3 downs. And still another saying we should have ran on second and passed on third.
So lets revisit the Buffalo loss last season when everybody was up in arms after we attempted the pass that resulted in the infamous sack/strip/fumble. In that game we attempted the pass which everybody said was stupid at the time. In this game we attempted the run which everybody is saying was stupid. How can both of those statements be true? Surely Philbin must have gotten one of them right, so which "game costing" decision was actually wrong?
Factor in the O line from last year and the game circumstances...Answer is pretty clear. Not close to being the same
The problem with this is Ross isn't your typical owner. It takes more than being a bad coach to get you fired. And when you do get canned, it's a few years too late and he'll ask the new potential HC if you're willing to retain the old HC on your staff doing something else.
Why was Wheeler in the last play in coverage? He gave him the inside for the easy winning score.
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So if he turns it over attempting a pass you would not have complained?
Not really..not even complaining that much today. Just not absolving the blame after the fact.When you factor in some aspects, like Rodgers on the other sideline, I would have preferred a more definitive plan. Seemed like the coaches were not sure whether to kill time or be aggressive... so they did both and neither.
I agree that this is a pretty valid complaint. The third down playcall doesn't make any sense if we were indeed trying to push for first downs. That's a give-up and run the clock play, and it isn't very useful when you haven't already committed to running the clock.
I don't care who was in coverage he was in off coverage was not long enough of a play to have that much separation. I know you want to keep it in front of you, but that off was too easy
It doesn't have to be one or the other, either run clock or go for the first down. There was no guaranteed path to victory by either running it all 3 downs or passing it all 3 downs, either way Rodgers with ~2 minutes left can win the game for his team. We have 3 downs, using one of them to try to go for the win and two to take time off the clock is just as viable as any option. I would say the fact that we were one tackle from ending the game speaks to it being a decent strategy.
The fact of the matter is if Tannehill makes a play on that second and nine we probably win the game. But he didn't.
moot point. when I looked at the replay, Finnegan was already flat footed and the WR was already running to the outside. Finnegan was trying to keep the guy from scoring at that point.
Very good points. It would have been different for sure. And a better scenario than what played out. That's still a good bit of time though and the risk of a loss, not a tie. But, running all three teams is definitely a better case scenario than run-pass-run. Although, imo, I'd have been aggressive all the way (perhaps because I've been burned way too many times the last 30 years watching the Dolphins trying to burn the clock and wind up losing).
However, the problem I have (as you note) is that if you are really trying to be aggressive - you don't go, run-pass-run. What Philbin said and what Miami actually did were two different things!
No, actually, Joe, that's not what you decided to do.
And surprisingly, that strategy isn't half bad, according to the following:
A run might not be a bad call there...except it was a run up the gut to a defense selling out up the gut. I wouldn't be so upset with the call had I seen the read option there.
Philbin called it....and you can take those stats and file them....total BS call...totally the wrong call...frustrating to the Nth degree
Hey at least you are consistent. I'm wondering who actually called that run play. Was it Tannehill checking into it? Lazor's direct call? Philbin had said "get the first down at all costs" apparently. Do they still even let Tanny audible a run in that situation? Lots to consider.....
That may be, and i'll be the first to admit i'm not privy to every defensive formation and it's impact on playcalling.
I'm not trying to attack any poster here, my main point is how relative to the outcome these calls are. There is tons of outcry today about philbin, i'm just not there yet. I saw a pretty good team yesterday miss tons of opportunities to win the game - by the players, on that final GB drive that philbin's (or whoever's) calls set up. I'm still holding out hope that can translate to enough wins at the end of the year to matter. I'd rather see this regime succeed, and I think they can, than rush to start over.
If you're talking about the run on 3rd & 9 at the end of the game, Philbin said in his presser today that he told Lazor to run it.
I really do not care. After considering the sequence for a full day, I lay the blame for this 100% on Tannehill. The 1st down call for a quick screen to WR with the depleted CB for the Packers was a good play call. The defensive player made a play on the ball, but Tannehill has a large number of batted balls. He has to find a way to deliver the ball.
On second down the line fails Tannehill, but he escapes the rush with an opportunity to run for a few yards or a small loss. He throws it away. My largest criticism for Tannehill is he consistently makes the wrong choice with throw away decisions. If time is not a factor, he holds the ball to long instead of throwing the ball away. When time is a factor, he throws it away. In this case; his throw away really, really, hurt.
I refuse to blame Philbin even 1% when his QB lays an egg on consecutive plays.
Finnegan tackling skills suck, I think he is now afraid of contact or seemed to shy from it yesterday. And grimes absolutely was abused yesterday
when your calling run plays up the middle against full out 8 in the box run blitzes your not giving your team a chance to convert, Ryan should of checked out of those plays you see but at that point it wasn't about converting, it was about milking clock, both philosophies were failure on the drive.
The third level of failure was not calling the right play on first down..they were coming and our coaches should of been able to predict that, some sort of misdirection, boot, rollout or read option was the right call..they didn't see it..
Sometimes balls are going to get batted. Just because Tannehill gets a lot batted doesn't mean that one was a bad throw. Defense made a great play, if I'm remembering it correctly. There is no way this loss is 100% on Tannehill. I struggle to even put the blame on him given how well he played in the second half, and the fact that they had a lead and had to not give up a td against a team with no timeouts. Tannehill struggled, but is not the reason we lost. He came back and gave them a chance to win. Even at the end, Finnegan just needs to keep the receiver in the middle of the field and the game is over. Don't give a 12 yard cushion on what you think is a spike play, and we aren't talking about any of this.
DJ..in alot of those plays....Ryan cannot check out of them.
You misunderstood me. I said the 3rd and 9 situation with little or no time off the clock was 100% Tannehill's fault. I stuck to the topic of the thread!!
Yeah I'm sure, don't agree with it.
I cant disagree that if he tackled him inbounds it would of won the game. It was a huge miss by him but the thing is that he should of not been in the position to begin. Our coaching kept GB's drive alive.
FTR Rodgers should count his blessings that he got away with that. It was a terrible decision and he got lucky that it worked out.
The truth is we beat GB and our own coaching handed the game back to them.
For philbin to say after the game that they made choices ahead of time and their was no decision to be made in game time is all anyone should need to hear to know that he is not a championship caliber head coach.