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3rd and 9...run play Philbin strikes again.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by finfansince72, Oct 12, 2014.

  1. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Did you see the plays right before that when RT was sacked by a free blitzer, or the one after that where another free blitzer came in and forced him to scramble and throw the ball away, stopping the clock? That's enough to make any HC want to go conservative, especially after the Bills game.

    What pissed me off was not bringing Will Davis down to help protect Fields on 4th down. The punt was bad, nearly blocked and GB got the ball around the 40 when they could've been pinned around or inside the 20. With the way we were pressuring Rodgers I doubt they go 80+ yards, they barely made it 60.
     
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    the play calling was bad from the get, as in bad play selection, as in not running plays that cater to our qbs strengths.
     
  3. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    But we seem to forget, when evaluating Joe Philbin based on the decisions he makes, that he's playing with a quarterback of that caliber. The quarterback is responsible for recognizing and evading a blitzer, and obviously throwing the ball away in that situation, rather than simply taking a sack and keeping the clock running, isn't the correct decision. Is it any wonder Philbin got "queasy" as he called it, and decided to run the ball? He couldn't have possibly had the confidence in Tannehill to put the 3rd down play on his shoulders.
     
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  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    well, we know he's not the biggest tannehill fan, but if he's that quesy then he needs to make a switch....how bout this , if you have free blitzers shooting the inside gaps, the roll your fu""in qb out and give him some options.
     
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  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    i just studied the third and 9, and this is a fact, the packers sent 8 men at the qb like a reverse triangle, there wasn't even a hint of trying to contain on the edges, if lazor has ryan boot or read option keeper on that?.....GAME..SET..MATCH..
     
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  6. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The decision to run on 3rd and 9 because he was "queasy" is the quintessential example of playing not to lose. Coaching scared. In other words, Wannyball. "It's no sin to punt."

    It just keeps happening, game after game. If it isn't quitting trying to score just before the half so as to get back into the locker room, it's a decision like running on third and nine because you're afraid the quarterback will fumble.

    If you feel compelled to take the play call away from your offensive coordinator in order to make sure you just keep possession of the ball, admit you don't have the intestinal fortitude to be a head coach in the NFL and resign. Make room for the next guy with some nerve who wants to play to win.

    This guy can simply not instill a winning attitude in anyone. He doesn't have the, shall we say, character. And I'm just talking about the decisions that indicate a lack of guts, and not even getting into the ones that indicate a lack of brains.
     
  7. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    And amazingly, it took a mediocre and poorly covered punt, a ball that bounced right into the arms of the team that fumbled it, and a cornerback who erred tremendously in allowing his counterpart to get out of bounds and permit the winning play, to make that decision the wrong one.

    In other words, the stars had to align -- and they did -- to make "coaching scared" (i.e., playing conservatively) the wrong decision in that situation.

    Now, should Philbin have bet on all those things happening, and put that 3rd down play on the shoulders of a quarterback who's far more unreliable than the occurrence of all of them, or should he have gone with what's more likely to happen and play it the way he did?

    In other words, that decision would be the right one in probably over 80 of the 100 times it was made in that situation. We just happened to see one of the other 20 or so, where the unlikely rules and the decision looks bad in the end.
     
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  8. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would have agreed with the decision, possibly, if Aaron Rodgers wasn't on the other sideline. Come on, did you have any real confidence that our defense would hold him with the game on the line? You can't give Aaron Rodgers and about 3 or 4 other Qbs the ball back with more than a minute left and think you have an 80% chance of winning. He's a HOF caliber player in his prime. You either run on ALL 3 plays or you go all in on getting the first down, we half assed it, gave Rodgers the time he needed and lost. It really wasn't a high percentage move and thats what is so frustrating. It was not only cowardly but it was also a bad football decision.
     
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  9. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    There's no guarantee they wouldn't have gotten the ball back anyway, had Philbin allowed a pass to be called on the 3rd down play. Moroever, there was more of a risk of the sort of play (a sack, a strip sack, an incomplete pass, an INT, etc.) that would've made it easier for Rodgers and company to win the game at that point.

    People talk about this decision as though a pass play would've made it certain that the Dolphins won. Not only do we not know that, but it would've put the game on the shoulders of a quarterback who on the previous two plays showed just how ineffective he might've been in that situation.

    In that situation I'd rather go with the defense that had ruled the day considerably, in terms of the pressure it had put on Rodgers, than the QB whose rating in the first half was 35, and who on the previous two plays showed himself to be ineffective in the face of the sort of defense the Packers were choosing to play at that point.

    And sure enough, the defense got to Rodgers again and caused a fumble, and but for the lucky bounce into the arms of a Packers player, would've won the game and made Philbin look like a genius.
     
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  10. ElNino

    ElNino Well-Known Member

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    Yeah i saw that after i posted. Honestly, i'm starting to think I WAS WRONG. He had already made up his mind to go for first down, but then changed his tune when the heat got turned up. I don't like it. And I respect people who can change their minds in the face of new evidence, vs. those that stick to their decisions no matter what, but in this case, he folded too easily. 3rd and 17? OK run it. 3rd and 9? Stick to the plan.

    Having said that, I'm not jumping ship on this regime just yet.
     
  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I kinda hope that we jettison Tannehill, just so I can watch the same posters lay into our new rookie QB, and start throwing up all sorts of stats that all really say "I didn't like the X-Player pick, and I will use stats to twist everything into being X-Player's fault."
     
  12. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly.
     
  13. Fin4Ever

    Fin4Ever Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Does Philbin pay you dude???? Take your blinders off already!!!! We could care less about Buffalo last year..we are worried about this year...Does any of us really need to go down the list for you again on all of Philbin's blunders? I swear to me it almost seems like Philbin wanted to give Rodgers chance after chance to win..he knows his MO..Philbin just helping his future boss win the game...Please...your defense of this jerk just keeps me now still fuming into Tuesday..Sorry...I know better than letnthem get to me like this but I have the right....48 years..still waiting to see another Lombardi in Miami..41 years after last one.
     
  14. Fin4Ever

    Fin4Ever Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Our last Drive...go to what WE do best..2 minute offense..score more..go for their nads with Tannehill"s hot hand in second half.
     
  15. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well at this point nothing will make Philbin look like a genius, thats for sure. I don't have a big issue with us trying to run as much time off but we threw on 2nd down so that forces you to go for it on 3rd down. You can't get scared and coach not to lose, thats what happened. Even if we had won I'd think Philbin coached scared. Wannestadt coached scared and we won a lot of games with him but he was a loser coach when it mattered so is Philbin.
     
  16. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    So you just forget about time altogether and play your game to the whistle? "We threw a pick 6 with 5 seconds left, at least we didn't played scared though...."

    At some point you have to switch into conservative mode and run the clock, its ridiculous to say otherwise. Philbin gave Lazor absolute free reign to do whatever he felt necessary to pick up yards, up until the moment he decided it was now the correct time to run some clock on that third down. Lazor had ample opportunity to make the right call, and the offense had ample opportunity to pick up some yards on those plays. Of course the lack of executuon played into his decision at that point, we were 1 for 4 passing and nearly gave up 2 sacks and one throw could have been a pick 6 if it wasn't deflected.

    IMO, perhaps he should have shut it down one play earlier, or at worst ran an option type play where you roll Tannehill out and only pass if its a sure thing and keep otherwise. But even that is going conservative and limiting the offenses full potential somewhat.

    For me, the overall strategy was fine. The execution is what was lacking.
     
  17. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Like I said before, being conservative and running the clock out is fine, thats a legit strategy. Throwing on 2nd down then running on third is garbage. You either play conservative and give your defense a chance or you do what we did and half *** it and give a HOF Qb plenty of time to score. I don't agree that the strategy was fine, if you go for it on that 3rd and 9 and get it the game is over, I'd rather play that percentage than give Rodgers a chance to beat us with plenty of time. Philbin just doesn't have that sense of game management that good coaches have. He gets conservative at bad times and just doesn't have that feel for the game that you'd like a coach to have.
     
  18. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    There is no reason to have a "rule" that you can't pass on second down and run the clock on third down, and I don't want to give Rodgers the ball with 1:50 left either. Run, run, run is way more conservative than Run, pass, run.
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I am fine with the 3rd and 9 call. Especially after the 2nd and 9 incomplete pass. I would rather give Rodgers the ball with 1:50 left, than 2:40.
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I only just saw this but Bill Lazor called Joe Philbin out when asked about the "queasy" call.

    That's as close to calling a fellow coach gutless as you'll get from someone not related to Buddy Ryan.

    And it sure looked to me like he wasn't just talking about that particular call. Note that he talked about "taking a knee".
     
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  21. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like he's praising Philbin for being aggressive to me. I don't see how you get he's calling him out from that quote.
     
  22. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    What's funny about this whole line of reasoning is that a pass play on 3rd and 9 is no more likely to result in a first down than a run play. In fact the run play is slightly more likely to be successful, and with far less of the risk of harm associated with a pass play.

    It's interesting how we can go 'round and 'round about Philbin's decision without even considering that most basic of information.
     
  23. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    What quote were you reading?

    "My first thought was I wish we had made more first downs." -- that sounds oddly specific to our last offensive drive where we went out with a whimper and questionable play calling.

    "I think it's our job to coach that way too." -- Which they clearly didn't when one damn first down would have sealed the game.
     
  24. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Whats funny to me is most of the "he's playing not to lose" crowd would have been fine with 3 straight runs, which is the even more conservative option. By leaving the offense wide open he took the absolute most aggressive path right up until that third down when he decided to change gears.
     
  25. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Keep reading, he says more stuff after to help provide a little context: "We could have started taking a knee two drives earlier and run the clock earlier (but we didn't), (because) that's not how you play."
     
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  26. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    If you're going to run the clock down, run the clock down on at least first down. We didn't take off nearly as much time as we could and after throwing on 2nd and 9 we essentially left ourselves no option but to throw for the first down.

    That drive's playcalling sequence is as puzzling as Philbin electing not even try to move the ball with 3 TOs in the last 2 minutes of the 1st half against Buffalo.
     
  27. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    It looks to me like Lazor is saying, and rightfully so, that if you're not going to try to score you should just take a knee. Let's hope Philbin learns from this.
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    i haven't seen anyone say that they would be happy with three strait runs, thats ridiculous with rogers on the other side, it doesn't take balls to be aggressive on that last drive to see if you can finish the game keeping rogers on the sideline, takes common sense...bad play calling relative to what the defense was showing was the problem.

    at that point in the game, whats most important is getting yourself in a very manageable down and distance, first down is the most important play of the game and you should call your best play utilizing your qbs best skill..they didn't, they failed on multiple levels..then they did it again on 2nd down..poor scheme coaching.
     
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    he's just as to blame, he called the wrong play on first and 2nd down.
     
  30. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I don't like to second guess play calling too much, and I think they should have went a smidgen more conservative on second down by rolling Tannehill out and passing only if its wide open, but on that second down the play was there to be made as called, there was a receiver left wide open over the middle but Tannehill was looking off to the left and by the time he got his head around the rush was on him. The guy to the left is off camera so you can't see him, but I think the Packers fooled him presnap and set us up knowing he'd never have time to look back over the middle.
     
  31. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Seems to me people are parsing statements looking for anything to support their own personal views. Clearly they wanted a first. However there were protection issues on 2nd down which led to a throwaway and free clock stoppage. Prior to that Tannehill was nearly decapitated by a blitzer but the OL was bailed out by a defensive penalty.

    On 3rd and 9 you balance the likelihood of making a first vs all the other possible outcomes, especially ones that stop the clock. If Tannehill throws an incompletion or a pick there you can bet your *** the people saying Philbin sucks for running it would be saying Philbin sucks for throwing it.

    Playing the result is such an easy game.
     
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  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    There were two options on that series of downs.

    1. Run out the clock as best you can
    2. Go for the 1st down

    Immediately after the game Philbin explained that in meetings with coordinators they decided they're going to be aggressive in those situations, and go for the 1st down. He said this is because he has a lot of respect for Aaron Rodgers.

    But when it came time to be aggressive, he vetoed it last second. He let Lazor call plays aggressively on 1st and 2nd down, then overruled him on 3rd down. So he was neither aggressive, nor did he control risk. He got "queasy".

    That was a blown series and he blew it with poor leadership.

    Some people would not be fine with running out the clock in that situation. I would have been perfectly fine with it. But you do one or the other. You don't decide you're going to be aggressive and then half-*** it because you got "queasy". Although that whole situation is vintage Philbin.
     
  33. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're missing the consistency issue here.

    Either, you attack and try to drive the ball down the field - with no let up (and the Dolphins offense had been doing pretty well prior to that); thinking only first downs and maybe a FG in order to at least secure a regulation tie.

    Or, you completely work the clock, in which case you do not throw the ball on second down. You also do a read option play that maybe opens things up a bit more.

    But, what Philbin did (and this is why he is such a total screw up) is that he was telling Lazor and all the coaches, that we're going to go for first downs and attack. But, then you have to be committed. The run on 3rd down burned some clock but, they should have done that from the get go if that's what they wanted to do. Now, if it had been under two minutes and GB had no timeouts, absolutely you run it and make Rogers go 60+ yards with only 1:20 to go and no TOs.

    Philbin did not have a good strategy.

    And, the screw ups on the field were a sign - imo - of poor coaching. The time out on GBs 4th and 10; even Finnegan's screw up - you have to a) have the players prepared for every play (no relaxing on fake spikes) and every two minute defensive scenario has to have drilled deep in their brains keeping players in bounds - esp. with no TOs and under 30 seconds. That is game situation preparedness that Belichick has been so great at emphasizing with his teams - and other coaches are very effective with.

    Indeed, players need to make plays but that would be making the tackle, block, etc.

    One other screw up was putting Wheeler in coverage out wide on the TE. At that point, why is he even in the game? Should be 4 DL and 1 LB; the biggest run threat is a QB draw only if the middle is open. If a LB is in the middle, you know he's going to throw it.
     
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  34. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    What if Philbin first wanted to play aggressively with the pass, noticed the Packers were calling defenses oriented toward the pass rush, realized his quarterback wasn't dealing well with that, and changed his mind?
     
  35. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    The most basic information is that RT was torching them in the 2nd half up until that point...the most basic information is there were plenty calls that could've been made to mitigate the defense they were running, but weren't called. "Slightly" more likely to be successful...in a vacuum...taking all other immediate factors out of the equation. The most basic information is there is one of two ways to go on that drive...neither were dedicated/dictated.

    The most basic information is queasiness doesn't belong on the sidelines deciding the game.
     
  36. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Queasiness in this sense is a euphemism for cowardice.
     
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  37. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    You criticize him for being too rigid with his "Kodaking" rule (or maybe you don't like kodaking at all?), that he needs to have better feel.

    You criticize him for being too passive on that third down.

    Yet here you are suggesting that he should have a "rule" to be even more passive for the entire series...

    His way was a play away from working on both sides of the ball. I think his way, whether it was pre-planned or he winged it turned out to be almost perfect, and his way probably gave us the best chance to win.

    There is nothing easier in the world than to look at results and make the perfect plan.
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm not playing the results. That's a fallacy. I don't care what the results were. We're talking about bad calls.

    Nor am I saying he should have a rule that he sticks to no matter what. I'm saying he one choice, or the other, and he half-assed it between the two because he tried to be bold and then got scared.
     
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  39. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I guess the next Dolphins' coach should be a member of this site. Despite not having the slightest bit of experience, so many people seem to know so much about head coaching and how to do the job better. Get your resumes out mofo'ers.
     
  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Professionals get fired all the time, their humans they make mistakes, crucial ones sometimes! this is the big boy league, and you have to see if they can handle it leadership wise! and some fail, Some gms actually aren't even very good at the # element that they should be good at..but they move up the ranks for various reasons other that pure evaluation skills.
     

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