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3rd and 9...run play Philbin strikes again.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by finfansince72, Oct 12, 2014.

  1. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Peyton Manning throws the ball away and then yells at his right tackle
     
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  2. heylookatme

    heylookatme Well-Known Member

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    [video=youtube_share;DttfyOeU3vw]http://youtu.be/DttfyOeU3vw[/video]
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Honest opinion?

    A little bit of a bad play call considering the situation.

    There's no faulting Tannehill on this. The pressure came in too quickly and there was no quick option for him to throw to on the play. Anyone that actually thinks he could have thrown to Wallace early on the play isn't paying attention to the route Wallace is running.

    That's why I say a little bit of a bad play call. You expect blitzing linebackers and such in this situation of the game, so I have a little bit of a problem with a combination that includes a deep dig route for Wallace (which takes time), and three crossing routes over the middle (all of which take time to come open). He had an outlet in the form of a back coming out of the backfield. It wasn't a completely idiotic play design. But when you've got only one potential quick outlet like that, you have a guy get in his passing lane (which happened here) and then what? You get J.J. Watt'd.

    Lazor called a risky pass and got burned for it, IMO.
     
  4. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    One of Philbin's consistent shortcomings is a sense of the human element. Momentum is a human element. The idea of a player getting hot. A crowd getting excited. etc.

    This is part of why he'd douse water on a fired up D and crowd with a timeout and let the opponent re-collect themselves.

    It's how he would take a hot-throwing Tannehill, playing downhill to win a game and send a "I don't trust you" message to the offense and team by getting queasy and going into a turtle-shell offensively.

    It is how he could have the offense stop trying with two minutes left in a half in Buffalo and not consider the impact that has on players psychologically.

    It allows him to obliviously create a QB controversy that upsets his players.

    It's also why he would insensibly admonish players smarting from the Buffalo loss for celebrating Hartline's TD.

    Needless to say it's why Martin - Incognito happened.

    Why he seemed uncomfortable talking with team leaders.

    It just seems to go on and on... and it's always the same theme: out of touch with the human elements of the game of football.
     
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  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Of course you view it that way. Something went wrong. You have to find a way to make it Tannehill's fault. This is what makes you so tiresome, and it actually causes what little legitimate stuff you bring up, to be lost on people.
     
  6. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Agreed. In that case, of course, he's yelling at the runningback. Funny as hell.
     
  7. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    It's always hard to tell from a still photo that doesn't show how fast anyone is moving, etc... but looking at that all my Madden instincts yell for me to start winding up a pass that leads Charles Clay out into space. He has his man beat and if you deliver it now then it reaches him as he clears the other receiver and is running in space.

    That play is at least a 5 yard gain, unless Clay breaks one tackle and gets lots more.
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    He doesn't have time. Literally. Look at where the linebacker is there. He's only about 6 or 7 feet away from Tannehill. That's it. And he's got a head of steam. You know how quickly he's going to clear that 6 or 7 feet? About a third of a second. You know how long it takes to set your feet and get a quick pass off? At least half a second.

    His only option at that point in the snap shot is to try and make the guy miss or outrun him, then find an option off the scramble drill. But he couldn't outrun the guy and so he threw it away.
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    https://twitter.com/NFLFilmStudy/status/522439088943554560

    You can watch the play here. Clay is kind of open. If he throws a little behind Clay it is an interception for a touchdown.

    IMO, that is a pretty hard throw with two people on that side in your face.
     
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  10. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I was at work reading the thread quickly on phone, so thanks for bringing that to my attention. Reading it actually made ME queasy knowing that is how our head coach makes decisions. Wishy washy flip flopper.
     
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  11. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Yeah, that helped. The speed of the rush changes things. Also, Tany was backpedalling. Super dangerous to attempt a 'lofted' ball to Clay like that.

    So, unless Tannehill blew the protection call, this seems like a good decision by Ryan to put us in a manageable 3rd down KNOWING we intend to go for it.

    Here's the problem: Joe Philbin lost his guts (and senses) and pulled the rug out from under Ryans feet.

    Now, next time it's a situation where Ryan "knows" they'll go for it on the next down, does he trust Joe Philbin? Does he start askng himself if the coach will get gutless if Ryan doesn't make something happen? Sort of like a defense telling each other "Man, the offense will never score, we gotta do something ourselves here" when a D loses trust in the O. It affects your approach to how you play.

    So does Ryan start to force things more? Does he stay as obedient to Philbin's philosophy or start mistrusting him?

    All things to watch. Especially since there were whisperings of Tannehill having a mind of his own in those last two games last season.
     
  12. heylookatme

    heylookatme Well-Known Member

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    Can you be more specific about this? I've no clue what you're talking about.
     
  13. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Unfortunately, I can't.
     
  14. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    So... what happens if we get into the playoffs more in spite of Philbin than because of him?
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Not very many coaches get into the playoffs and are fired.

    Unless Harbaugh or Cowher or Gruden come on a platter, I don't see Ross pulling the trigger.

    Heck, he didn't really fire Ireland, he put him in a position to quit.
     
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  16. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Jeff should hire himself again.
     
  17. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    So he could actually hire his own coach. Brilliant. :hi5:
     
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  18. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Couldn't you just see him bringing in some Div III codger fresh off a triple-bypass?
     
  19. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    lol... Actually, I think he'd hire Todd Bowles at this point.

    From 2012 accounts, Ireland wanted to hire Mike McCoy and it was Ross and Peterson that decided on Philbin... ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported that Ireland and Ross advisor, Carl Peterson, had different views, with Ireland backing McCoy and Peterson Philbin. McCoy "reportedly has the support of Ireland" and went so far as to decline to interview elsewhere as he thought the position was his and was angry and felt misled when Ross hired Philbin.
     
  20. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Looks like the RB is wide open for a first down and Tannehill got queasy at the thought of winning the game.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B0ATlGFCQAApy86.mp4
     
  21. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Doesn't look open to me. Tannehill would have to throw off his back foot with the middle pressure, looks like A.J. Hawk was waiting for the throw.
     
  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    RB is not open at all. Unless you want the play to be intercepted.
     
  23. heylookatme

    heylookatme Well-Known Member

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    Geno Smith throws that pass, it goes for a pick six, and we laugh. Ryan Tannehill doesn't throw that pass and he's a moron.

    I don't know.
     
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  24. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't always kodak on 4th down regardless of circumstance. He didn't do it in the Panthers game, so it absolutely is a situational thing.

    Not naming starters Monday morning is a good policy.

    Think through the "rule" on being aggressive for a minute. He didn't have a "rule" that he was going to keep going for first downs no matter what, that's ridiculous. How can you not see that? What if there was a minute left, should he follow through with the "rule" and throw it on 3rd and 30?
     
  25. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Of all the questionable calls made in the game 3rd and 9 doesn't rate. At all. Even in a vaccum 3rd and 9 is a very low percentage play. When you factor in the game situation, late in the 4th, 4 pt lead, a time when you want your QB to be extremely careful, it's an even lower percentage play. Then factor in GB is almost certainly going to blitz, likely a zero blitz, vs a WR group that lacks a quick twitch get open quickly type, so a free rusher will most likely be on the QB long before any receiver creates separation in a spot where he could realistically get the first down.

    One of the resident stat junkies can tell us what the Dolphin/league wide 3rd and 9 conversion rate is, and factoring in the above you can pretty much cut that number in half and measure it vs the likelihood of a sack, strip sack, incompletion, int or anything else that can happen in that spot.

    The other option is to play it safe, run the ball, guarantee a 40 second runoff and punt. I haven't heard it mentioned that Fields' punt netted a pitiful 24 yards or that it was nearly blocked. A decent punt pins GB at or inside their 20, 80+ yards away vs a defense that had been playing well for most of the day.

    We all know the D is the strength of this team, has been since forever. There is nothing gutless about taking the game out of Tannehill's hands and putting it on Wake, Vernon, Grimes, Jones & co. to get one final stop. I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that Wake & company had a better chance of getting that final stop than the offense did converting a 3rd and 9.

    That's called playing the the percentagages, basic coaching, not a damn thing cowardly or gutless about it.
     
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  26. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    There was nobody within 7 yards of him, who would have intercepted it? I doubt he ever gets his head around in time though. There was something wrong with that play, especially if you know its an all out blitz, Tannehill was staring him down but gave up on it, was is a bad route?
     
  27. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Indeed. Lebetard calls it playing the result, an apt term. Because GB ended up scoring and winning all of a sudden every decision that preceded it is suddenly wrong. Never mind that it took a horrible punt, 4th and 10/3rd and 8 conversion, fumble recovery by a Olineman, fake spike that went for big yardage, and a last second laser beam from the games best QB to facilitate the final score, never mind all that.

    If you have time check out the recent Tannehill threads, ironically you'll find that many of those who say it was wrong not to call a pass (trust RT to make a play) on 3rd and 9 also think our QB stinks and needs to be replaced asap.
     
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  28. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The LB was going around the wash and heading for the area where the ball would have to go not for Miller himself. If Tannehill makes the throw it's more likely to be an inc at int than a reception IMO. In that situation if it's not a sure thing then don't even bother with the throw.
     
  29. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    Ryan Tannehill this year on 3rd down and between 8 and 10 yards to go is 4 for 8 (50%) for 34 yards. One of the completions was for 32 yards, so that means in the other 7 attempts, the YPA was 0.3. Not real promising.

    Compare that to Aaron Rodgers, for example, who is 9 for 11 (82%) for 138 yards and a 12.5 YPA. Something tells me Philbin wouldn't have been so "queasy" with Rodgers at the helm.
     
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  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I agree with that part. If the running back ran a quick out or ran behind the line.

    It is almost like the runningback ran the wrong route.
     
  31. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not a numbers guru so can you explain how Tannehill converted 3 plays of 3rd and 8-10 for a total of 2 yds?
     
  32. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    They weren't converted. Those are simply his numbers at that down and distance.
     
  33. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Seems to me that Tannehill read the D incorrectly. Hartline was uncovered pre snap and the S, disguised as playing deep had a long run to acquire him in his man converge responsibility. Instead of looking right to Hartline RT looked left and never had a chance to take a second look because the blitz was on him too quickly.
     
  34. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ok I misread 4-8 completions as 4-8 conversions. Thanks for the info but we all know Rodgers is better than Tannehill, no need to harp on it constantly.
     
  35. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    What there is seemingly a need to emphasize is how just about any important decision Joe Philbin makes, or the way the team functions in just about any regard, should be considered in light of the fact that it currently has a QB who is playing well below an adequate level. The game revolves around the play at that position, and so a team with inadequate play at that position isn't going to function customarily.
     
  36. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's not that simple. Which is why Miami has wins vs Tom Brady and a last second loss vs Aaron Rodgers while losing by 20 vs EJ Manuel and Alex Smith.

    I really think you should do more studying of he actual game, it'd be a great compliment to your knowledge of stats.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    By the time Hartline looks for the ball, Tannehill already got rid of it.
     
  38. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Indeed. There wasn't enough time to do much of anything but at the same time that play is a harbinger for whether RT ever becomes an upper tier QB.

    At some point he's got to say, OK I know the heat is coming so what do I do about it? Speeding up the read is one thing but that ain't enough. Rodgers faced far more pressure than Tannehill in that game but as a vet and an elite talent he dealt with and even thrived under duress.

    I'd love to see Tannehill punish teams for pressuring instead of just making the correct football play. On that 2nd and 9, look left, make the blitzer think he has a kill shot then evade at the last second, move right and BOOM, 15 yards of grass, or a wide open Wallace streaking to the middle. That's what is missing in his game right now. He reacts to events as opposed to anticipating them. If he ever makes that leap watch the mother fug out cause it's gonna get ugly, for our opponents I mean.
     
  39. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Do not mind the trust in the D Cautious Coach Joe showed DO mind the lack of confidence he showed in the offense.
     
  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We've talked about the lack of anticipation before a lot around here, some say it's because of Sherman cuttin his legs out and training him a certain way, which I like to believe is the case, some can't figure out why the receiver athleticism isn't translating into qb escapability, but, its obvious that it is an anticipation problem, going on three years dude, needs to happen soon if he's gonna be a franchise type qb..very soon..

    I don't know about you, but I don't have any room for regression at This point..it's all gotta be uphill for awhile.
     

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