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51 Olinemen signed or drafted = 3 current starters

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Itsdahumidity, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    No, because maybe Philbin feels like he needs a stud RG/RT and if Reiff (or one of the others) fits that bill they may get him. I will have no problem with the new HC wanting to fix tihs team the way he wants to fix this team.
     
  2. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    You've got this all wrong. A GM will ask his HC what types of players he wants to best fit his system. The GM will then use his best judgement to find those players.
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think there's this disconnect people like yourself have. They think Ireland is going to pick the players he picks regardless of who is coach is or who his boss is.

    When Parcells was here Ireland picked players Parcells would want. None of Ireland haters have really dealt with that. There has to, HAS TO be more to your argument than "but, but it says GM before Ireland's name". I have yet to hear an actual argument has to why we are supposed to think Ireland wasn't following Parcell's blueprint. Not one single argument.

    Ireland had a decidedly unParcellian offseason last year. Same this year so far. We'll see after the draft, if this shows a Philbin influence or a Parcells one or if its just Ireland doing his own thing regardless.

    I've also yet to see what other teams have done with their o-line in the same span. None of us know yet if that's actually a lot or not.
     
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  4. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I think you're the one who has it all wrong if you think it's that simple. I'm not doubting Joe Philbin has some input, but Jeff Ireland is clearly not someone who is just going to go out and select the players or type of players Joe Philbin tells him to go get.
     
  5. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    This I know Monster, but if you believe for one minute Jeff Ireland isn't going to try and grab any and every player Joe Philbin wants, then you're living in a place called "Bitterland".

    I've addressed this before. Why on God's green Earth would you hire a specific head coach, coveting the offense he had as Green Bay's offensive coordinator, and then turn right around and deny him what he wants/needs?

    That's a stupid as a football bat!! It doesn't make any sense!!! And after seeing the recent press conferences, I'm comfortable Ross, Ireland and Philbin are all on the same sheet of music....singing that new tune Joe brought from Green Bay.
     
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  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    How can you say that with such certainty?
     
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  7. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Sorry, that's 100% wrong. Ireland's job is not to tell the HC what system he is to run. The GM's job is to ask the HC what types of players fit their system and then go out and find the best available player(s) for that system. This is why the entire Parcells/Sparano team failed. Parcells told Sparano that he wanted a certain type of system ran. Sparano, either being forced to or agreeing to, liked Parcells system and those are the types of players Ireland got for them.
     
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  8. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    He can't and he's wrong. If it were the way he thinks it is then a HC wouldn't be needed.
     
  9. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Nothing about what I've said even comes close to suggesting a head coach wouldn't be needed. In the press conference Jeff Ireland very clearly stated, "It's my job to find the players. It's Joe's job to coach them." Go back and watch it again.
     
  10. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    Excuse after excuse. They were just bottom of the roster churning moves? Tony's fault, he couldn't coach them up? Don't like Armando? Who cares? What does any of that have to do with ireland not being able to identify quality starting olinmen? It's safe to say Henne will always be compared to Ryan & Flacco right? Well let's bookend the Olines of these teams from the start of the shared philosophy.

    Wait. Instead of starting a new thread I want to address this topic & hopefully put it to rest. Just what do some of you think parcells was doing from the moment he took over, to right before the 2008 draft? How many scouting trips for prospects do you think he made? How many of ireland's scouts do you think parcells really hired? How many study hours do you think parcells really put in? History has repeated itself and some of you failed to notice.

    Wannspiel. Spielman was always Wanny's personnel guy from the very beginning. Spielman was the one compiling the info even when he didn't have final say. Yes, no two people think exactly the same but like minds think alike. Wanny wanted his type of players grouped by round, and Spielman shared this philosophy evidenced by his final-say moves in the 2004 season.

    Are we to believe parcells disregarded all of ireland's prospects thus neutering him? 'just sit there and be quiet while I make these selections.' So what does that say about a previously neutered GM who then continues the same draft philosophy?

    Anyway:

    ATL
    2008
    LT Todd Weiner (retired after '08 season)
    LG Justin Blalock
    C Todd McClure
    RG Harvey Dahl
    RT Tyson Clabo

    2011
    LT Will Svitek
    LG Justin Blalock
    C Todd McClure
    RG Joe Hawley
    RT Tyson Clabo
    ________________

    BAL
    2008
    LT Jared Gaither
    LG Ben Grubbs
    C Jason Brown
    RG Chris Chester
    RT Willie Anderson

    2011
    LT Bryant McKinnie
    LG Ben Grubbs
    C Matt Birk
    RG Marshall Yanda (pro bowl, drafted in '07)
    RT Michael Oher

    Playoff teams both years and I don't think they brought in 50 plus olinemen. Want more perspective. How about a winless team.

    DET
    2008 (0-16)
    LT Jeff Backus
    LG Edwin Mulitalo
    C Dominic Raiola
    RG Stephen Peterman
    RT Gosder Cherilus

    2011
    LT Jeff Backus
    LG Rob Sims
    C Dominic Raiola
    RG Stephen Peterman
    RT Gosder Cherilus

    They only replaced 1 starter. btw, the Lions made the playoffs.
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    This post ^ makes makes no sense. It jumps around and is making 100 different points that don't tie together. Maybe try to organize the thoughts better.
     
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  12. PhinsPhan23

    PhinsPhan23 New Member

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    This is defenseless, no question. I would flip this though to say what if Ireland actually hit on 2 or 3 more linemen? I know we would still be without a QB but the line would be settled, we would have Wake, Davis, Smith, Dansby, Burnett, Jimmy Wilson, Starks, Odrick, Bess...we would actually be pretty solid going into the draft this year and could focus solely on WR, Safety, and a pass rusher (assuming Tannenhill is gone).

    Spinning this into a positive is not easy, but to say Ireland has been worthless overall is a bit false. He has been worthless when it comes to offensive linemen and it would be helpful to get someone in here personnel wise to help Ireland out with Linemen. Regardless, he has been pretty solid in every other area especially considering there were no slam dunk QB's there for the taking since he arrived.
     
  13. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Finding the players that fit the HC's system. Any other interpretation of what he said is asinine and suggests that a HC is not needed. Why would the GM go out and pick players he likes and then tell his HC to conform to those players (non)abilities? There is no logical explanation for that thought process.
     
  14. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    I reread this post you're talking about 100 times trying to figure out what the point was. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who sees that there is no point! At least no point with regards to this thread.
     
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Your bias takes that statement and turns it into, Ireland brings in whoever he wants for whatever he wants, and Philbin can just deal with it. That is just ridiculous.
     
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  16. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    It's funny that people call Armando a troll. He's not the best beat writer, but he's objective. You don't want a hardcore Dolphins fan covering your team, lest you end up with Omar Kelly.

    You can debate the semantics all you want in an attempt to defend Ireland, but the fact is the O-Line isn't very good right now.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Even Ireland said he is buying groceries for a different cook.
     
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  18. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I never said Philbin had NO say. But the lines of who actually chooses the players was very clearly drawn. You and others think I'm being ridiculous. I think it's ridiculous that some of you are saying who is chosen depends on what players Philbin wants. It's still Jeff Ireland choosing the players. I'm sure there's some effort to get players that will fit Philbin's system, but Joe Philbin's say on which players / perhaps even positions that are filled is likely limited based on the comments made by Ireland.

    From my perspective it's equally ridiculous when folks suggest that Jeff Ireland is some kind of order taker akin to a McDonald's clerk.

    Joe Philbin: You go get me these guys.

    Jeff Ireland: Sure. Want fries with that?

    That's not how it works. That's not the organizational structure of this team. You guys can argue the point all you want, but it's why some coaches did not want to come here. They wanted the kind of input you suggest and they weren't going to get it with Jeff Ireland as GM and the organizational structure that's in place with this team.
     
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  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    None of that is true and you have no evidence pointing in that direction.
     
  20. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    No evidence? It's a well known fact that one of the biggest reasons Fisher didn't choose to come here was Ross wasn't willing to give him the authority he wanted in personnel decisions.

    Where's your evidence to say what I said isn't true. You love telling everyone they have no evidence but you don't seem to have any backing up your claims either.
     
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  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The players he's brought in when Parcells was here and the ones he brought in when Parcells wasn't here is evidence if not proof.

    These quotes and incidents you refer to don't prove your case. For example:

    The Fisher/Control thing. That doesn't automatically mean Ireland has autonomy. It means Philbin can't overwrite Ireland. That's all it means. It doesn't mean they don't work together. It doesn't mean Ireland isn't looking for players that fit Philbin's system. It just means when there's a dispute, Ireland wins.

    It is actually insane to think Ireland doesn't even care what his coach wants and needs to run his system, after he was involved in hiring him partially based on that system. That's what this whole Ireland hate is based on is insanity.
     
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  22. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Look, the best way to describe this relationship, and my current/former military will understand this, is the Platoon Sergeant/Platoon Leader relationship.

    The Platoon Leader is a 2nd Lieutenant, 1st Lieutenant at best.
    The Platoon Sergeant is a Staff Sergeant or Sergeant First Class.

    Both have their individual responsibilities, the PL deals with the Company Commander and other officers while the PSG deals with the soldiers. The PL outranks the PSG and is by billet, THE commander of the platoon, but the one who really truly runs the platoon is the PSG. If the PSG tells the PL, he wants this, that or the other 9 times out of 10 the PL is going to do what the PSG says, afterall, he has the years of experience where as the PL doesn't.

    Now, let's change the names/titles and duty descriptions ever so slightly and write this all over again.

    Jeff Ireland is the General Manager.
    Joe Philbin is the Head Coach.

    Both have their individual responsibilities, the GM deals with the owner and other officers of the team while the HC deals with the players. The GM outranks the HC and is by billet, has final say on players, but the one who really truly runs the team and players is the HC. If the HC tells the GM, he wants this, that or the other 9 times out of 10 the GM is going to get what the HC wants, afterall, he has the years of experience in coaching where the GM doesn't.

    It's the best analogy I could demonstrate on the relationship between the two, but the bottom line is it's the head coach's responsibility to win games and the only way a coach puts a winning team on the field is if the general manager gives the head coach players that fit his system, his style of football.

    Bottonline? Yea, Ireland is the one who will get players, but if you think that Platoon Leader is just going to arbitrarily go out on his own and not consult with his Platoon Sergeant (especially in this first year of Joe Philbin's tenure)???

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Exactly!

    Rational people think this is how the GM and HC relationship works:

    Philbin: Ireland, I need a TE that can do "this" and "this".

    Ireland: OK, there are 3 TE's that can do those things. TE #1 is the best, TE #2 is good but not great, and TE #3 will get done what you need, but may need some help.

    Philbin: OK, I'd love to have TE#1.

    Ireland: Well, you also said that you needed a RG that could do "this". So, we can get this RG and TE #2 and still be under the cap.

    Philbin: Sounds great!


    The insane people think the GM HC relationship works like this:

    Philbin: I need a TE that can do this and this.

    Ireland: Here's a CB. Now shut up and take it. And like it.
     
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  24. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Balls on dead accurate FinD :up:

    (see, we can get along :sidelol: )
     
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  25. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Because they were not drafted in the top 4-5 rounds does not mean they were camp fodder. Hate to burst the bubble but good personnel GM's build good O-lines with more than just high draft picks and high priced free agents. They "hit" on sleepers.

    The real point is, however, that every team has 5 O-linemen who start. The deeper issue is that ostensibly Ireland has scored two legit starters since 2008 (possibly three with Incognito - who has been more of a shell of his previous self since joining the Phins).
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    How many lineman have other teams brought in during the same span? We assume this is a lot (and it may be) but do you know?
     
  27. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Not a single person has said that.
     
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  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    With all due respect....my lily white *** no one has said that. Ok no one has said those exact words, but all the registered Ireland haters have certainly painted that exact picture.
     
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  29. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    To press:
    Ross: We want a franchise QB.

    Behind closed doors:
    Philbin: I need a QB that can do this and this.

    Ireland: Here's a CB.

    Ross and Philbin: CB?

    Ireland: I thought you said we wanted a franchise CB.

    Ross: Philby get the bat!
     
  30. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Not a "single"...multiple. ;)
     
  31. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    This post is a swing and a miss.
     
  32. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    BS. What we've said is (or at least I have said is) this:

    Philbin: We need a QB.

    Ireland: *Signs David Garrard*

    Philbin: Ummmmm, yeah...

    (Press conference)

    Ireland: We feel good about the QB position.

    Philbin: I, ummm...

    Ireland: *Trades down in draft, picks up High-Motor Lineman*

    Philbin: Seriously?

    Ireland: *Cuts Ray Feigna, re-signs him, cuts him again, repeats this process 15 more times*

    Philbin: ???

    Ireland: *Drafts Brock Osweiler in Round 3*

    Philbin: ....

    Ireland: *Cuts Ray Feinga*

    Philbin: FML.
     
  33. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    Philbin: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
    Ireland: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?
    Philbin: Why yes... I suppose they do
     
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  34. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    Parcells: Hey are you nervous about your draft?
    Ireland: A little.
    Parcells: First time?
    Ireland: No, I've been nervous before.
     
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Which is exactly what Bulldog was saying. You guys swear the coach asks for one thing and Ireland gives him another.
     
  36. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Hey wait, he asked for a QB and got one, didn't he? Just not one that he (or anyone else for that matter, Garrard?) wanted. That's exactly what my post implied. Ireland is the Amelia Bedelia of NFL GM's.
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Sigh. C'mon man. You really think Philbin just said, "QB" and that was it? Really? You think that's what Parcells did too?
     
  38. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Ireland has the control. He'll bring in who he wants, yes. I can only guess as to how Parcells and Ireland made decisions, because for whatever reason he and Ireland and Ross have chosen to keep that a secret. However, Ireland is from the Parcells mold so it wouldn't surprise me if the decisions of most, if not all picks and signings were mutual.
     
  39. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension

    Ireland: Scouts say that Tannehill has a 50/50 chance of being a franchise qb, though there's only a 10 percent chance of that.
     
  40. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    It is cute though that you guys think Ireland doesn't call all the shots. The guy survived a Head Coach getting fired who came in the same year as him. How often does that happen? He's Teflon.
     

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