A Closer Look at Philly's Offensive Philosophy

"DPlus47 wrote:

By the time Brady became a "great" QB, he was done winning Super Bowls. He won 2 with game manager numbers and won another one with pretty good numbers. The records came later. This point isn't particularly relevant to the conversation, but it's fun to make.

True, but the Great QB was a once in a lifetime helmet catch away from 19-0. They didn't get it, but don't take that away from him. He was that close to the greatest season ever. 99 out of 100 Tyree doesn't make that catch. Luck for us Phin fans, that was #1 out of 100. Winning a superbowl is a team effort of course. But I wouldn't go so far as to say, Brady's great period wasn't enough to win a superbowl. Technically they didn't win it, but I'm not using that Tyree catch against him. Most exciting Super Bowl in recent memory. I lost my voice when Plaxico caught that TD

I think that's what separates Brady from Manning IMO. I think Manning has prolific numbers but cannot dissect great defenses. The no contact rule in 2004 came about because Manning cried about New England's defense in the playoffs. I think Brady is better at navigating tough defenses, just my cursory observation.

You guys don't want to follow Philly's philosophy. That means losing lol.

"djphinfan wrote:

Yes, as in extending the play, breaking the pocket when protection breaks down, finishing impact out of nothing, yes, Big Ben is right there, but Wilson is very precise in his playmaking, to call it naive to say that he is a supreme playmaker at the position is a bunch of bologna sammiches.

What's naive, IMO, is your definition of play making.

"GMJohnson wrote:

What's naive, IMO, is your definition of play making.

you must be talking about the throws themselves as "plays" and that's fine, I get it, in this case I used "playmaker" as in when protection breaks down..

Very efficient passer + Best playmaker at the position= best start ever for a Qb.= not how you described the young Qb.

Efficiency = making plays very frequently.

An efficient quarterback IS a play maker.

"ckparrothead wrote:

Efficiency = making plays very frequently.

An efficient quarterback IS a play maker.

I never understood how efficient has always had the connotation of being less than ideal.

"GMJohnson wrote:

Wilson makes his share of mistakes just like every other QB. He doesn't make a whole lot of them, most of them probably go unnoticed if you're not seeing the whole field/coaches tape, and he's rarely in a spot where he HAS to make a play so I can see how you'd be so wrong w/o realizing it.

Yeah he's efficient, good for him. That doesn't make him elite. And some of that efficiency comes from scrambling for a few yards, making a short throw, playing it safe etc, when a better QB would have made a chunk throw down field to a receiver that Wilson either didn't see or chose not to throw to. Again, you'd need to study coaches tape to know the difference.

His style of play is geared towards being cautious and avoiding mistakes, at the expense of throwing lasers into tight windows down the field or even staying in the pocket long enough for plays to fully develop the way QBs do. That's his game and there's nothing wrong with it but to confuse that with superior play making ability is just plain naive.

except for his 8 Fourth Quarter Comebacks the past 2 years, most in the NFL.
Wilson is EASILY one of the top 5 clutch QBs in the game right now and can carry his team when it needs to be carried. What you're doing is docking him simply b/c he doesn't need to carry his team on a weekly basis, and that's entirely unfair. Wilson had about the worst pass protection in the league last year and had a mediocre group of targets to throw to with Harvin & Rice injured, yet that didn't stop him from posting another 100+ Passer Rating, the 4th best First Down Percentage, and tied for 4th best Yards Per Attempt. He and Marshawn Lynch had to manufacture their own yards b/c that line was so terrible. If it weren't for Wilson's ability to CARRY Seattle when they needed it, the Seahawks would've failed to make the playoffs in 2012, wouldn't have gained home field advantage last year, and would've failed to make it past San Fran in the playoffs. Wilson is so integral to Seattle's overall success it isn't funny.

I simply don't get your bilateral argument WADR. On one hand you make excuses for Tannehill's play by suggesting he's being hindered and held back due to poor offensive support/protection which is placing too much on his own shoulders, but then when it comes to a QB who has had a tremendous amount of success, you knock that success because he doesn't always have to do it on his own. So does that mean if Miami goes 12-4 this year behind a cohesive Oline, a stiffer defense, and an improved ground game, will you then discredit Tannehill's stellar and efficient season just b/c he no longer needed to do it all on his own on a weekly basis in similar fashion to how you're condemning Wilson?

I guess we'll see how the NFL feels about Russell Wilson when the final 20 spots of the Top 100 are revealed. He'll either be omitted b/c the league believes he doesn't have to do much..... or he'll be planted in the top 20 because he's a major difference maker and significant contributor to Seattle's success.

Oh wait, he was voted #51 on last year's list.
Can't wait to hear the players' reasoning for Wilson's spot in the Top 20.

here's what Vernon Davis had to say about Wilson after meeting him 5 times in 2 years:

"I think among the 31 NFL quarterbacks who don’t throw me passes, Russell Wilson is the best. He’s got all the tools; he has the ability to keep the play alive, and he’s very accurate with a strong arm. He exemplifies what it takes to be a winning QB in the NFL. If you asked me to choose based on record and experience, I’d take Tom Brady or Peyton Manning—but in terms of right now, my pick is Wilson."

I think GM was saucin it up when lookin at that 22..suprised quite honestly....:wink2:....your my boy blu!!!

Wilson is a knife of a playmaker., he'll cut you up real nice.

The playmaking he has is only engaged when the pressure heaps upon him, that's why he gets calm in pressure situations, he knows he has the sixth sense the most only dream about, and the beautiful specific escapability talent that is the best in the league.

No one in the league is as precise as Russell Wilson when it comes to extending a play..it's so precise he allows himself extra space when he scrambles, why do you think he never takes a lick?, because his senses and athleticism is smarter and better than the other guys.

"phinsational wrote:

except for his 8 Fourth Quarter Comebacks the past 2 years, most in the NFL.
Wilson is EASILY one of the top 5 clutch QBs in the game right now and can carry his team when it needs to be carried. What you're doing is docking him simply b/c he doesn't need to carry his team on a weekly basis, and that's entirely unfair. Wilson had about the worst pass protection in the league last year and had a mediocre group of targets to throw to with Harvin & Rice injured, yet that didn't stop him from posting another 100+ Passer Rating, the 4th best First Down Percentage, and tied for 4th best Yards Per Attempt. He and Marshawn Lynch had to manufacture their own yards b/c that line was so terrible. If it weren't for Wilson's ability to CARRY Seattle when they needed it, the Seahawks would've failed to make the playoffs in 2012, wouldn't have gained home field advantage last year, and would've failed to make it past San Fran in the playoffs. Wilson is so integral to Seattle's overall success it isn't funny.

I simply don't get your bilateral argument WADR. On one hand you make excuses for Tannehill's play by suggesting he's being hindered and held back due to poor offensive support/protection which is placing too much on his own shoulders, but then when it comes to a QB who has had a tremendous amount of success, you knock that success because he doesn't always have to do it on his own. So does that mean if Miami goes 12-4 this year behind a cohesive Oline, a stiffer defense, and an improved ground game, will you then discredit Tannehill's stellar and efficient season just b/c he no longer needed to do it all on his own on a weekly basis in similar fashion to how you're condemning Wilson?

8 4th quarter comebacks, really?

Are you counting the phantom TD vs Green Bay? The wild card game where RG3's knee fell apart and Washington could barely get a first down in the 2nd half? The Carolina game where he put up a whopping 12 points? The Houston game where Tate's fumble, Sherman's pick 6, and Seattle's D pitching a 2nd half shut out keyed the comeback? They also pitched a 2nd half shut out in the comeback vs Tampa? Tell me you're not counting the Rams game where he had like 100 yds passing and Seattle's D stopped St Louis on 7 goal to go plays in the last minute? That's 6, what were the other two? New England, a legit comeback and.....?

He was 8-19 for 142 yds 1 TD and 1 INT vs SF in week two. The beat the 49ers by 26. He was pedestrian in the Super Bowl and they won by 35. I don't have to tell you how those types of things happen. Or do I?

Wilson ain't easily top 5 in anything other than scrambling and being overrated. Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning, Ryan are the top 5 clutch guys. Which one of those guys are you bumping to put RW on thT list.

Rodgers, Manning, Brees and Brady are the elite QBs. Roethlisberger, Ryan, Rivers are next. Then there's Luck, Romo, Cutler, Stafford, Newton, Flacco, Wilson, Eli, all bunched together. You say I'm dissing RW I think it's more accurate to say you're dissing QBs all across the league.

"djphinfan wrote:

I think GM was saucin it up when lookin at that 22..suprised quite honestly....:wink2:....your my boy blu!!!

Wilson is a knife of a playmaker., he'll cut you up real nice.

The playmaking he has is only engaged when the pressure heaps upon him, that's why he gets calm in pressure situations, he knows he has the sixth sense the most only dream about, and the beautiful specific escapability talent that is the best in the league.

No one in the league is as precise as Russell Wilson when it comes to extending a play..it's so precise he allows himself extra space when he scrambles, why do you think he never takes a lick?, because his senses and athleticism is smarter and better than the other guys.

You keep talking about the pressure of a collapsing pocket. What about the pressure of a collapsing defense? A defense that can't get off the field, that's giving up 20-25-30 pts a game and forcing their offense to keep pace? That's when elite QBs show their worth. Or they show their worth by putting up 20-25-30 pts of their own and forcing the other team to keep pace.

"phinsational wrote:

I guess we'll see how the NFL feels about Russell Wilson when the final 20 spots of the Top 100 are revealed. He'll either be omitted b/c the league believes he doesn't have to do much..... or he'll be planted in the top 20 because he's a major difference maker and significant contributor to Seattle's success.

Oh wait, he was voted #51 on last year's list.
Can't wait to hear the players' reasoning for Wilson's spot in the Top 20.

Lmao. I think the NFL draft is a much better assessment of how the NFL feels about players. What's next, are we gonna judge guys based on their fantasy rankings?

I'd like just one of you guys to point out a game or a series of games where RW showed he was an elite QB. You know I have the all 22, point me in the right direction so I can see the light ;)

"GMJohnson wrote:

8 4th quarter comebacks, really?

Are you counting the phantom TD vs Green Bay? The wild card game where RG3's knee fell apart and Washington could barely get a first down in the 2nd half? The Carolina game where he put up a whopping 12 points? The Houston game where Tate's fumble, Sherman's pick 6, and Seattle's D pitching a 2nd half shut out keyed the comeback? They also pitched a 2nd half shut out in the comeback vs Tampa? Tell me you're not counting the Rams game where he had like 100 yds passing and Seattle's D stopped St Louis on 7 goal to go plays in the last minute? That's 6, what were the other two? New England, a legit comeback and.....?

He was 8-19 for 142 yds 1 TD and 1 INT vs SF in week two. The beat the 49ers by 26. He was pedestrian in the Super Bowl and they won by 35. I don't have to tell you how those types of things happen. Or do I?

Wilson ain't easily top 5 in anything other than scrambling and being overrated. Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning, Ryan are the top 5 clutch guys. Which one of those guys are you bumping to put RW on thT list.

Rodgers, Manning, Brees and Brady are the elite QBs. Roethlisberger, Ryan, Rivers are next. Then there's Luck, Romo, Cutler, Stafford, Newton, Flacco, Wilson, Eli, all bunched together. You say I'm dissing RW I think it's more accurate to say you're dissing QBs all across the league.

How you've conjured up the opinion that Wilson is overrated is beyond me..the dude posts record numbers, wins the Super Bowl, almost get to another, all in his first two years, keeps his mistakes down, makes plays when he needs to, yet he overrated, by whom?

The guy is playing at a high level, your attempt to discredit him because of variables behind his control or that you watch tape is incorrect in this case, jmo..

If I'm starting a franchise 2maro and age is a factor, Wilson is in the elite class with Rodgers, luck, Wilson, Kapernick..

Pretty sure you would be the only name with the initials of GM that would think not..he has nothing to prove, not sure your compartmentalizing his skillset accurately.

"GMJohnson wrote:

Lmao. I think the NFL draft is a much better assessment of how the NFL feels about players. What's next, are we gonna judge guys based on their fantasy rankings?

I'd like just one of you guys to point out a game or a series of games where RW showed he was an elite QB. You know I have the all 22, point me in the right direction so I can see the light ;)

Seeing that your outnumbered and have the tape, how bout you show us.

I watched some kind of film about Wilson preseason to his year at Wisconsin and one thing he has tons of is charisma. Tons. His teammates love him and he makes them better.

"GMJohnson wrote:

You keep talking about the pressure of a collapsing pocket. What about the pressure of a collapsing defense? A defense that can't get off the field, that's giving up 20-25-30 pts a game and forcing their offense to keep pace? That's when elite QBs show their worth. Or they show their worth by putting up 20-25-30 pts of their own and forcing the other team to keep pace.

Wow, so much for all those HOF QBs who had the support of a great defense behind their backs. Guess we should probably strip Montana, Young, Aikman, Kelly, Bradshaw, Tarkenton, Griese, Dawson, and Starr of their Canton honors, eh? Hell, how many Super Bowls has Brady won without the aid of a great defense behind him? What's that you say, zero? Look at Marino's career-- 5 times did he have a defense ranked 20th or lower; none of those years did Miami make the playoffs...... so either Marino wasn't an elite QB or your definition needs to change.

Aaron Rodgers needed the NFL's #2 defense to win his SB in 2010, meanwhile his offense ranked 10th in scoring [24.2 PPG], which ironically is worse than the guy you're hating on. Rodgers threw a whopping 2 more TDs that year. In order for Rodgers to squeak into a Wildcard spot he needed a 9-0 win over the Jets and a 10-3 win over the Bears to overcome a 3-7 loss to Detroit, a 13-16 loss to Washington, and a pair of 17-20 losses to Chicago & Atlanta. He has 6 4th Quarter Comebacks in 6 years. Wilson has 8 in 2.

Favre needed the #1 D to win his SB.
Theismann needed the #1 D as well.
Namath was only able to make the playoffs with a top 4 scoring & yardage D.

Kurt Warner won his lone SB with the NFL's #4 scoring D.
Warner scored 30 touchdowns during Zona's 2008 SB season. Wilson scored 30 TDs as a goddam rookie and but did so in 129 less attempts. Yeah, but that guy doesn't know how to score. *rolleyes*

During Peyton Manning's lone SB season, Indy's defense bailed him out allowing 8 and 6 points in their opening two playoff games while Manning farted his way through 5 INTs and just 1 TD.... and then in the Super Bowl he accounted for 7 of Indy's 29 points while his defense and special teams allowed 17.

.... and it's funny you previously mentioned Roethlisberger who won 2 Super Bowls with the #1 & #3 ranked defense and made another SB trip with the #1 defense.

"GMJohnson wrote:

Lmao. I think the NFL draft is a much better assessment of how the NFL feels about players. What's next, are we gonna judge guys based on their fantasy rankings?

I'd like just one of you guys to point out a game or a series of games where RW showed he was an elite QB. You know I have the all 22, point me in the right direction so I can see the light ;)

I'll give you one before he truly started emerging as elite. 2012 vs New England.
Wilson overcomes a 23-10 deficit with 9 minutes to play, including a 47 yarder to win it with a minute left. Lynch ran for 41 yards that day, so it was the Russell Wilson show beating Tom Brady.

How 'bout the 34 point game vs Zona's 7th ranked scoring D this year? That was a great game. One of the two better throws of the year were in that game, by Wilson of course. It's another game where Lynch was held under a 100 and the defense allowed over 20.

"GMJohnson wrote:

8 4th quarter comebacks, really?

Are you counting the phantom TD vs Green Bay? The wild card game where RG3's knee fell apart and Washington could barely get a first down in the 2nd half? The Carolina game where he put up a whopping 12 points? The Houston game where Tate's fumble, Sherman's pick 6, and Seattle's D pitching a 2nd half shut out keyed the comeback? They also pitched a 2nd half shut out in the comeback vs Tampa? Tell me you're not counting the Rams game where he had like 100 yds passing and Seattle's D stopped St Louis on 7 goal to go plays in the last minute? That's 6, what were the other two? New England, a legit comeback and.....?

none of this changes the fact that when the game is ON THE LINE in the 4th quarter and Seattle needs Wilson to win it, he did so more successfully than any QB the past 2 years. Not only are his 8 the highest in the NFL but the percentage for which he wins in the 4th quarter is also the highest in the league, meaning he's also the most efficient 4th quarter winner.

Wilson was also 3rd in the NFL last year in pass plays over 25 yards with 36..... but... but... but he only threw the ball 407 times.
He had the 6th highest Passer Rating in 4+ receiver sets.... so apparently he holds up damn well in obvious passing situations.
He threw the 5th most first half TDs.

You can't fault Wilson for having a great defense behind him..... just as you can't fault Aaron Rodgers' offense for scoring 24 PPG during his 2010 SB season when his defense was lights out. BTW, that's 2 points less than Wilson's offense this year, and that was with a significantly better receiving corpse than Seattle's. Do you think Aaron Rodgers wouldn't have his attempts limited behind Eddie Lacy and if Green Bay's defense regains its 2010 form? Cmon.

He was 8-19 for 142 yds 1 TD and 1 INT vs SF in week two. The beat the 49ers by 26.

Tom Brady had 1 TD, 1 INT, and 116 yards against Miami in week 8 but New England scored 27 points and won by 10. What's your point?

He was pedestrian in the Super Bowl and they won by 35. I don't have to tell you how those types of things happen. Or do I?

I'm not really sure how a 123.1 Passer Rating, 72% completions, 2 TDs to 0 INTs, and 6 of 7 converting 3rd & 12 or less is considered pedestrian.... in a Super Bowl no less. If Wilson was "pedestrian" then what does that make Manning?

Wilson ain't easily top 5 in anything other than scrambling and being overrated. Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning, Ryan are the top 5 clutch guys. Which one of those guys are you bumping to put RW on thT list.

Matt Ryan gets bumped for Wilson all day every day IMO. Ryan was 4-12 this year and with just 1 Fourth Quarter Comeback despite alllll those opportunities. Coincidentally he didn't have Julio for half the year, had Roddy banged up, and Gonzalez in his final season, making it a similar receiving corpse to what Wilson had all year.

Rodgers, Manning, Brees and Brady are the elite QBs. Roethlisberger, Ryan, Rivers are next. Then there's Luck, Romo, Cutler, Stafford, Newton, Flacco, Wilson, Eli, all bunched together. You say I'm dissing RW I think it's more accurate to say you're dissing QBs all across the league.

I guess we'll see who's dissing who as this unfolds further. After Marino, Wilson is probably the best QB through the first two years of his career in NFL history. When praise is heaped upon him by his peers as being one of the best players in the game , what will your response be to it?

Todd do you have any stats on his third down conversion rate when the ball is not handed off, that includes passes and rushes.?

"phinsational wrote:

none of this changes the fact that when the game is ON THE LINE in the 4th quarter and Seattle needs Wilson to win it, he did so more successfully than any QB the past 2 years. Not only are his 8 the highest in the NFL but the percentage for which he wins in the 4th quarter is also the highest in the league, meaning he's also the most efficient 4th quarter winner.

Wilson was also 3rd in the NFL last year in pass plays over 25 yards with 36..... but... but... but he only threw the ball 407 times.
He had the 6th highest Passer Rating in 4+ receiver sets.... so apparently he holds up damn well in obvious passing situations.
He threw the 5th most first half TDs.

You can't fault Wilson for having a great defense behind him..... just as you can't fault Aaron Rodgers' offense for scoring 24 PPG during his 2010 SB season when his defense was lights out. BTW, that's 2 points less than Wilson's offense this year, and that was with a significantly better receiving corpse than Seattle's. Do you think Aaron Rodgers wouldn't have his attempts limited behind Eddie Lacy and if Green Bay's defense regains its 2010 form? Cmon.

Tom Brady had 1 TD, 1 INT, and 116 yards against Miami in week 8 but New England scored 27 points and won by 10. What's your point?

I'm not really sure how a 123.1 Passer Rating, 72% completions, 2 TDs to 0 INTs, and 6 of 7 converting 3rd & 12 or less is considered pedestrian.... in a Super Bowl no less. If Wilson was "pedestrian" then what does that make Manning?

Matt Ryan gets bumped for Wilson all day every day IMO. Ryan was 4-12 this year and with just 1 Fourth Quarter Comeback despite alllll those opportunities. Coincidentally he didn't have Julio for half the year, had Roddy banged up, and Gonzalez in his final season, making it a similar receiving corpse to what Wilson had all year.

I guess we'll see who's dissing who as this unfolds further. After Marino, Wilson is probably the best QB through the first two years of his career in NFL history. When praise is heaped upon him by his peers as being one of the best players in the game , what will your response be to it?

Matt Ryan beat Wilson the year before in the playoffs. Atlanta lost all of its receivers, had no run game and no defense. Basically nothing but Matt Ryan. They still scored 22 PTs per game. That's playoffs with a defense that allows 14 a game. Despite having to trot out all those new pieces he did not have a terrible year stats wise. 68% accuracy, 4500 yards, more TDs than INTs. I don't see how they still don't win the SB with him at the helm.

Almost any QB with that defense would have a spectacular record. Are we forgetting the Seahawks kept the highest scoring offense ever below 10 PTs?? Mark Sanchez would have won that game. The had a safety and a defensive td early. That's 9 PTs. Russell just needed to hand it off the rest of the game ;)

Russell vs Matt Ryan. That's a tough one. You can do a lot with 68% accuracy the past two years and a good INT rate. Wilson is more mobile which helps if your line sucks.

Russell Wilson versus Matt Ryan is not a tough question.

"Stringer Bell wrote:

I never understood how efficient has always had the connotation of being less than ideal.

It's because most people associate it with less prolific passers. A QB who goes 14 for 20, 200 yards, 1 or 2 TDs, no INTs is labeled "efficient." The QB who throws for 28/40 and 350 yards is prolific. Same percentage of completions. While you'll hear "efficient" used sometimes to describe QB#2, you will not hear him being given the efficient label.

QB #1 usually needs good field position and a solid running game. Hence people think it not ideal.

"ckparrothead wrote:

Russell Wilson versus Matt Ryan is not a tough question.

You're right. Matt Ryan all the way.

Time will tell. That defense can't possibly hold up over the long haul. Eventually the run game will be even more mediocre than it is now. That will be the test. Soon enough.