This is something I posted in the Club Level in April of 2009, just after Brian Hartline was drafted.
For some reason the table I put into this post in which I compared Hartline's college numbers to Anthony Gonzalez's no longer shows up and can't be copied.
This is by no means an "I told you so" post, since lots of people who replied in the thread were in agreement and were hopeful about Hartline at the time.
I'm pulling this up merely to show how perhaps Brian Hartline should've been viewed more along the lines of a Jordy Nelson, who was a 2nd-round pick, coming out of college, and therefore what he is doing nowadays should perhaps come as less of a surprise.
Jordy Nelson ran a 4.51 at the combine. He's 15 pounds heavier and more muscular than Hartline, but he too took four years before posting big numbers in the NFL, and that was on the other end of Aaron Rodgers's 122.5 QB rating (which by the way was the highest of all time).
If as I said above you look at Brian Hartline as having been pushed from the 2nd round to the 4th round by the presence of a very raw and freshman Terrelle Pryor in Hartline's senior year in college, it's much less of a reach IMO to think he could become a Jordy Nelson type in this, his fourth year in the league.
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LandShark13, the 23rd, djphinfan and 1 other person like this.
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I just don't get what you are trying to prove here.....
but anyway good job in fairly and correctly assessing a player.....
FWIW my brother-in-law said he wasn't going to bust out so that's all I need to know and was good enough for me.shouright likes this. -
With all due respect, I have a monopoly on the Brian Hartline "I told you so" market
shouright likes this. -
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Because it wasn't the main topic. Claiming that its not an "I told you so" post looked more like a footnote to me.
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I told you shmucks Ginn was a better pick than Quinn!!!
All the crow u can eat babyBuckeyeKing, dolfan32323 and finyank13 like this. -
How is that new? I bring that up on my own like probably 1 out of 5 times we ever talk about Brian Hartline.
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When the original post says something that you disagree with and you say so, that's suddently a TOS violation based on subjective standards about what parts of the post were "main points" and what parts weren't?
A little heavy handed there.
I think slickj is correct on this one. My posts got deleted specifically because of the off topic TOS violations that occurred in response, and you deleted my posts as well only in order to give an image of fairness. But what I said was pretty on topic. -
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I don't care about the appearance of fairness, trust me. You were speculating as to the motivations of the poster.shouright likes this.
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Here it is in a nutshell:
If Brian Hartline is viewed as a 4th-round pick, it's harder to imagine him becoming successful, since few 4th-round picks do.
If on the other hand you take his senior year of college into consideration (detailed in the post I pulled up) and view him as a 2nd-round pick (a la Jordy Nelson) who got pushed into the 4th, it's easier to expect him to be successful.
It's all about the "lens" through which you may be viewing Brian Hartline the player nowadays, and why there may in fact be a more accurate one. -
I was disagreeing with an assertion made in the original post. The poster claimed this isn't an "I told you so" type post, but it seems to me like it is.MrClean likes this.
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You're saying this to the same fan base that hailed the acquisition of 4th round pick Brandon Marshall in 2010 as the Dolphins finally acquiring a premier wide receiver.PhinsRDbest likes this.
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Right I can see that, but Hartline was a guy who didnt surprise me if he panned out and the 4th was a great pick on him....
Again my brother-in-law said when he came out that Miami probably has a keeper and the 4th was a great slot for him, he has good football route speed rather than straight line, good hands, excellent body control, very nice balance and has a knack for having incredible feet control outside the hash marks (sidelines).....in contrast when I was giddy that they got Henne because crap who wasnt, he told me he would bust out....stares to many players down, not smart.....I laughed at him then, he laughs at me now.
So who is he Mayock?? No. He is/was from Michigan (lives here now), went there, season ticket holder since he was 18 and is 36, has them to go to 1 game every other year....OU...:lol:.
Sorry for getting off topic, but this whole thread is off topic, I guess the point is, if ya'll need Michigan/OU player assessments come see me.....or Fin-O :shifty: -
Right, but Brandon Marshall had already demonstrated consistent success at a high level that point. With Hartline we have a guy who's currently flirting with a high level of success, and it's easier to view that as tenuous and not likely to be sustained if you view him as a 4th-round pick rather than a 2nd-round one.
Either way, he's not likely to sustain what he's doing, because he's currently on-pace for over 2,000 yards receiving, but the point is that it's easier to envision him becoming the next Jordy Nelson type player if you consider his senior year of college and realize that he could've very easily been a 2nd-round pick with a better quarterback throwing him the ball. Terrelle Pryor was downright atrocious as a passer that year, and the team had virtually no passing offense. -
Just about any 4th round pick could have been a 2nd round pick under different circumstances with more production and a better QB throwing him the football. The argument is circular and ends up boiling down to Brian Hartline is good and I recognize he's good because I always thought he was good and if you had always thought he was good like I always thought he was good then you would also recognize that he is good. I'm really not trying to criticize. That's what the rationale boils down to.
You said it yourself, Brandon Marshall was hailed as a premier receiver because he PRODUCED like a premier receiver. Brian Hartline has not. He's produced about 400 or 500 yards a season with about 1 touchdown a season since being drafted. If it's a little difficult for people to swallow him as a premier wide receiver that's pretty much mostly the reason, not the fact that people don't recognize that he was a 4th round pick that some (yourself included) thought could have been a 2nd round pick had he been more productive in college. In Green Bay, Jordy Nelson wasn't even Jordy Nelson after he had that great Super Bowl. He was Jordy Nelson after he started the whole year and produced an *** ton of yards and touchdowns. He was a 2nd round pick. Until he went H.A.M. in the Super Bowl he was still playing third or fourth fiddle to Greg Jennings, Donald Driver and James Jones.
Great yardage marks at the season's quarter pole are not going to suddenly convince everyone that the guy that has been producing 400 or 500 yards a year with maybe 1 TD is suddenly Jordy Nelson, whether you thought he was a good draft pick or not. I'm not sure I see the point here. It's going to take time. The production will lead the horse to water. If he's producing and playing like Jordy Nelson the whole season he'll be considered a Jordy Nelson.MrClean likes this. -
Sure, and my point is that your "focus" on Hartline in the present is determined by the "lens" through which you're looking at him, which may have been created by an incomplete understanding of what may have made him a 4th-round pick (the mess of a passing offense he was in his senior year). Real simple.
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I started Brian Hartline in my fantasy leauge last week in place of Mike Wallace on bye week. So I win.
Trowa, Steve-Mo, PhinsRDbest and 3 others like this. -
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You're oversimplifying the point. The point is that Hartline went from very good production as a junior, to very poor production as a senior, because his quarterback as a senior was nowhere close to even an average-level passer at the high college level (Ohio State).
The point is that if he would've been the recipient of a similar passing game as a senior as he was as a junior, he probably would've improved his production as a senior and been drafted in the 2nd round, and then the success he's showing right now would likely be viewed as expected, rather than tenuous. -
you could make the same argument with Egnew and so far he hasn't been successful.
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I don't really agree with this.
Nobody really underestimates Davonne Bess anymore, because we know he's a good player in the NFL because he's produced like a good player in the NFL since he was a rookie.
Same with Hartline. We all think Hartline is a good player based on his production in his first 3 seasons. But it's not really fair to view him like a top WR yet because he hasn't produced like one throughout 90% of his career. If he sustains this success for another 4-6 games, then most will. And everyone around the league will as well.
Basically, the lens were looking at him through is based on his first 3 years as a pro. Not what he did in college or his draft position, or his 40 time, or his Madden ratingBpk likes this. -
Wouldn't it be crazy if Hartline leads the league in receiving yards, while coming close to Jerry Rice's record?
He has to get 76 yards per game to break Clayton's team record.Bpk likes this. -
God damn Section.
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Same for Jordy Nelson going into last year, but I imagine when he started showing success last year, Packers fans probably thought it was expected and didn't question it as much, since he was a 2nd-round pick.
That's the point, that Hartline might've been a 2nd-round pick as well had he had a quarterback as a senior who was even close to an adequate passer. And then at this point we'd probably be doing a lot less questioning of what Hartline's doing on the field, with his having a 2nd-round pedigree.
The point is that where a guy is drafted can influence how you view what a guy is doing, and where Hartline was drafted may have been inordinately influenced by fairly extreme circumstances beyond his control when he was a senior.
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