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Advanced Scout thoughts on Chad Henne

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Henne has Marshall in his prime and one of the best slot receivers in the game.

    Kitna has been putting up numbers his entire career. In fact before he was hurt in Detroit he was well on his way to being the 20th quarterback of all time in terms of yards.

    Miami did have the appropriate talent to meet Henne's skill set. Henne hasn't shown the appropriate skills to take advantage of the talent.

    You also mention taking away Ginn, however he barely threw it deep to him either.
     
  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    AJ Feeley, who threw a game winning pass to Derrius Thompson.
     
  3. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    Culpepper stunk it up in 2005 before the knee injury.
     
  4. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    Wow. There has to be in the neighborhood of 100 pages of posts about Henne’s incompetence on this board in the last month or so. The scouts, talking heads and majority of posters have all written him off as a bust.

    I’ve written off the entire offense as a bust. Sparano is supposed to be the O-Line guru and even though defenses are playing more shell coverages to deal with Marshall and Bess, the RB group scored 19 more TDs last year with a stacked box.

    I just can’t see how a 3rd year player can be held more accountable than the staff for this fiasco. Especially, when the player in question has improved in just about every area.
     
  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Bess= dink and dunk possession receiver
    Marshall = dink and dunk to intermediate possession receiver <in Miami>
    Hartline = short-intermediate possession receiver
    Fasano = dink and dunk to intermediate possession TE

    These are possession type guys suited for Penny's limited arm, not Henne. I'm not sure how this is debatable. They're pretty far from meeting Henne's skill set actually.

    It doesn't matter if he didn't throw it deep to Ginn much...... the threat of Ginn's speed helped had to be respected, and as such, it helped open up more of the field.

    I'm not sure where what kind of numers you're referring to from Kitna. He's had 1 year over an 81 QB rating in 7 seasons when he's started at least 12 games. He's had 4 years in the 70s.... and 1 15 game season that was a 61 QB rating. Before this season, he had 152 TDs to 151 INTs in 13 years in the NFL. That doesn't scream good IMO. For a veteran, it says average.

    Kitna's 13 year career: 77.6 QB rating.... 6.7 ave....60.3 %.... 1.22 TDs/game (19.5 per season)....3.8 TD %.... 216 ypg.... (38) plays of 30+... 5.6 plays of 40+

    Kitna's 2010 season: 91.4 QB rating.......7.6 ave.....66.1 %.... 1.88 TDs/game (30 per season).......5.0 TD %... 250 ypg... (62) plays of 30+.... 12 plays of 40+


    John is having by far the best year of his career.

    The difference between Kitna of 1997-2009 and 2010 Kitna is he now has a full array of weapons to work with (Dez, Austin, Witten, Williams, Felix Jones, and Bennett) who can attack every blade of grass on the field. If Kitna of ALL people can make it work, then I have a hard time believing that Henne couldn't do the same with a few playmakers instead of a cast full of possession receivers.
     
  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Because the offense was put into Henne's hands, and in game #14 of his second season starting, he is throwing checkdown, 4 yd passes to Ricky Williams and D Bess with 40 seconds to go in the game.

    Do you really think that is where the play was supposed to go?

    People are rightly peeved about the blown call in the Steelers game so much so they forget that we had the ball with over 2 minutes left and the "2 minute offense" looked as bad then, as it did Sunday, Harrison did not intercept that pass, but the larger point is that was 4th down and Henne was throwing a..you guessed it, checkdown to a double covered Ronnie Brown SHORT OF THE FIRST DOWN ANYWAY!

    That was 7 games ago? Where is the improvement?

    I'm hearing Sparano getting bagged on for not running the ball against "the 32nd ranked run defense" if you watched the game the Bills were stacking the line of scrimmage and run blitzing, daring Henne to throw the ball to beat them..and he couldn't we made 2 trips into the redzone Sunday..2..

    Chad Henne has morphed from a Qb with a large arm willing to pump the ball downfield into Trent Edwards jr.
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Please stop saying he has Marshall. Brandon, evidenced by his YAC totals, is nothing more than a glorified, overpriced possession receiver here b/c he does NOT have a surrounding cast & playcalling capable of opening up the field so that he is actually afforded some space to work with. How many big plays have we seen Marshall break? How many times have we seen him catch a ball with a defender(s) draped all over him before he can take a step?
     
  8. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Uh yeah lol. Those were the primary reads. Read Henne's transcripts. Williams was his primary read on the quick flat route. Thats Henning's call man.
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Kitna had 2 4,000 yard season.

    Sheesh, you are good at taking a sample of numbers and disrgarding the rest.

    Bess = one of the best slot receivers in the game and with a quarterback with good timing could make big plays with breaking tackles and dump offs.
    Marshall = one of the best receivers at yards after catch until he played with Henne. One of the best receivers at getting the ball when just thrown up to him. Something that Henne has done a grand total of zero times.
    Hartline = A good short-intermediate receiver. (possession receiver is nearly useless. Hinds Ward is a possession receiver, however he still has big plays when he has a good quarterback to get him the ball)
    Fasano = is nothing like a dink and dunk tight end. He is a good to above average tight end.

    Those are guys who are best suited for a quarterback who can get them the damn ball. Since Henne can't throw a 20 yard route with any touch at all, he is far from suiting any wide receivers. He also cannot hit receivers on long routes. He is good at short bullet throws only. In fact this offense is best suited for him and he is still failing. In college Henne didn't have to throw it in "NFL open" he had people college open and in the NFL he mostly throws the ball to players who are college open. Then you have to factor in his horrible pocket presence and his horrible ability to buy more time.

    John Kitna can buy more time, can actually feel a pocket and actually got 800 yards out of Peter Warrick.

    Henne is extremely limited as a quarterback in his second year and your screaming of his need for an all star offense to surround him only makes him seem more limited.
     
  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Thank you for proving my point. With Orton, he made plays. With Henne he does not.
     
  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    that was like 7 years ago. My point exactly.
     
  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Odd, because Sparano said "coverage dictated the throw"

    Which meant "there were guys running deeper routes, but Henne threw underneath the coverage"

    Ditto to Bess on that same err, "drive".

    He did the same stuff in the Patriots game when we were down, the Henne of the Raiders game or Titans game was willing to challenge defenses now when defenses dare him to make the same throws, he just is not doing so, that is what the Bills game really was all about, Sparano saw the Bills had altered their scheme to one where Henne was allowed to throw and they took away the run, and Henne just could not make them pay for it, how chances will Henne have in those situations to excel, and fail to do so?
     
  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    So Henne is as good as AJ Feeley is your point
     
  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    sample of numbers? How the heck is his entire career averaged out consider "taking a sample of numbers". I don't think it gets any more definitive than averaging a guys 13 year career (but I did include his 2010 numbers in that average which boosts them up a bit). Cmon now, he is what he is. Please don't glorify him into something he's not.

    Those (2) 4000 yard seasons were a 79 & 80 QB rating that averaged 19 TDs to 21 INTs. He threw more INTs than TDs in both of those years. Henne is a 2nd year starter doing this while throwing for a bunch of yards. What was 10th and 11th year Kitna's excuse.

    Kitna was in his 7th year when Warrick caught for 800 yards. He also had 1 of the best vertical threats in the game at the time to help draw coverage and open the field for him. You speak of Warrick like he was a bum. He didn't meet his #4 overall pick potential, but he was as (or more) productive than Bess or Hartline while offering the explosiveness that they lack..... and he was starting to break out before he messed up his knee.
     
  15. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    I've been wondering about that. Marshall seems to be stopping immediately after he catches the ball and trying to cut it back. Why?
     
  16. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Dude, it was the primary route. Maybe not the Bess throw, but the Williams throw was the primary read.
     
  17. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Nope..... if you read it correctly, the point is that not many people beat Brady or NE..... and that Brady of today is definitely much better than the young Brady who threw 4 ints vs Feeley. Henne won the game for us vs Tom. Feeley might have thrown the "winning" TD, but Brady's 4 picks is what allowed Feeley to win the game. There's a difference. Feeley didn't carry that game like Henne did.
     
  18. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher Club Member

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    You mean the addition of street free agent, cancer-surviving Kevin Curtis three days before the game wasn't enough to allow Henne to make the Bills pay?
     
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  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    yea, as a Kitna fan, Kitna has the amazing ability to throw interceptions where the ball bounces right off of the wide receiver hands. My favorite was when he threw the ball and it was deflected at the line. Kitna was smart and knocked the ball down right into the defenders hand.

    I am not making Kitna excuses, however the guy has put up numbers. Using an average doesn't really do much because he was a back up for half of his career. Kitna is a decent quarterback, he doesn't have the arm, however he has the will to win. Plus he has pocket presence and can stretch out a play.

    Henne doesn't have that at all. He is like Rob Johnson back there. In fact Rob Johnson is the quarterback that Chad Henne reminds me the most of. Rob Johnson could really use the 3 second whistle

    I also do speak of Warrick like he is a bum because he was a bum. In his first two years in the NFL he was nowhere near Bess and he was also behind Hartline. He was so explosive he averaged less than 10 yards per catch his second year. The dude was a bum.

    I had hope that Henne could be a starting quarterback in this league, however he hasn't really shown much improvement over his second year. It could be simply that people now have tape on him and teams are really good at exposing his weaknesses. The question I have, "Can he improve a lot in this third year."

    I am not so sure anymore.
     
  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Respectfully, I didn't peg you as being that ignorant. Brandon is still on pace to catch as many passes here as he did in Denver. He's still getting the ball from Henne JUST as he was from Orton. Only in Denver he had an offense that allowed him more space to make bigger plays. Once Henne gets him the ball, it's out of his hands. Honestly, how hard is that to understand? I love how it's Henne's fault that Brandon has guys draped on him here so that he gets tackled as soon as he catches the ball. :lol:
     
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  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Then the Patriots got some tape on Henne and this year Henne was a big reason why Miami lost.

    People like to put the entire blame on that game on special teams, and it really does deserve it. However the offense was clicking in the first half and Henne kept on throwing interceptions.
     
  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    They were draped over him in Denver. Eddie Royal was horrible that year and all they had was Marshall. The difference was Orton throws the ball UP to Marshall. Have you ever seen a Marshall big play? He is generally double or triple covered, the quarterback throws the ball up so Marshall can make a play, he does, one or two of the cornerbacks fall down and he runs for a big gain. Or even sometimes he would be tackled right away, however it was for a 30 yard gain.

    That has happened a grand total of ZERO times with Henne. Something Marshall has made a name for in the NFL has happened ZERO TIMES with HENNE! The last time it happened was with Pennington in the preseason.
     
  23. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    because he has so much coverage draped on him, it's one of the only ways he can try and make a play. Catch it and stop so that the defender will hopefully run by him to allow Brandon a little space to make a play with.
     
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  24. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    C'mon Padre. They're putting way more on Henne's plate than anyone could reasonably expect him to achieve.

    What happened to run to set up the pass?

    There were 4 1st round draft picks on this offense and only the one-armed guy has been pulled his weight consistently.

    Edit: Isn't Henne close to achieving all of the goals you had set for him?
     
  25. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I'm not sure either, but I'd rather find out than trust what's available in this draft, FA, or a broken Carson Palmer. At least with Henne, we know that we can win some big games with our amazing defense and an improved offense around him. I couldn't say the same thing about our QB alternatives. I said it before, but I'd love to trade Henne, Odrick, and a future #1 & #2 for Luck.

    Outside of that, Orton would probably be great for this conservative, dink and dunk type offense..... but IMO the only question is: will a new HC, OC, or this regime want us to remain a conservative, dink and dunk type team? And if we do want to open it up in the future, would it be worth bringing in Orton for the transition rather than seeing what Henne has after his 2nd offseason etc etc.

    It's worth noting that it wasn't until Orton's 3rd year as a starter, his 1st in a new system, that he actually displayed his worth. Similarly, this will be Chad's 3rd year starting and possibly 1st in a new system, so I'd really like to see what the kid is TRULY capable of (or not) before I shelve him b/c the 3 year learning curve is important IMO.

    I do agree that Henne seems emotionless out there, but I don't think that necessarily equates to a lack of competitiveness. Although I do feel it might be effecting his game. I'd like to know if this is his nature, or if he seems that way b/c this regime has broken him..... b/c I know that if I went through some of the crap he's endured, I'd be a little less enthusiastic too. It's only human nature IMO.

    I could care less who our starter is next year. I care more about winning than I do Chad Henne. I just don't want to get rid of Chad and then be left worse off (which is possible), and I don't want to see us waste a 1st round pick when the rookie QB might not even see the field early on, during which time Henne might end up surprising us all like Orton did in Denver after Tebow was drafted.
     
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  26. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I can't disagree with this at all. Special teams put us in a big hole, but Henne certainly didn't help matters either. Week 17 will be interesting for sure.
     
  27. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Henning doesn't really call the routes to take full advantage of this either though..... and Brandon hasn't helped himself on a few of those "UP" balls. He might not have a many jump ball opportunities here, but there's something to be said for the lack of space he has to make plays with.
     
  28. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    I've never saw him do that before. As big as he is, you'd think his biggest asset would be momentum.
     
  29. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    That would include sparano... at least publicly. Though, if the staff will happily blame players for their problems (poor execution, and occasionally naming the players) then I see no reason for a double standard and not making Henning publicly accountable. Why embarass the players and spare Henning?
     
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  30. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    That would be nice wouldn't it. He's like a hulk version of Davone Bess here instead of Brandon Marshall. :lol:
     
  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    If he get a new regime, IMO, Henne is gone. Henne's only hope is Sparano keeps his job and only brings in a player like Carson Palmer to push him.

    I am not as sure as you are that Henne can survive in a more downfield offense. He doesn't have great long accuracy as Eli Manning. I do not agree that Henne seems emotionless out there. I think the whole robot thing is as stupid as the Sparano celebrates too much on field goal thing.

    I do not agree that this regime has broken him. I do not see how anyone can think that. It doesn't make any sense. I haven't seen any quarterback who wasn't just amazingly naturally talented who were not taught to minimize errors.

    I do think he would do better with a offense full of all stars, however so would AJ Feeley or any quarterback in the NFL.

    Would I like to see Henne replaced? Only if the player is MUCH better than him. With the way he is playing as of now, which is the rate of improvement from his first year to his second year. Is he going to be the type who does well in his third year or is he a Rick Mirer and teams have figured out how to defend him.

    As a Dolphin fan this is one of the most talented offense I have seen on the field since the time of Marino. Which shows how bad Jimmy and Wanny were at bringing in offensive talent. I think Henne has been a big reason why Miami has one of the worst scoring offenses in the league. I do not know if it is because the offensive coaches has ruined him, however last year the offensive coaches were geniuses at bringing Henne along. Then one year later the offensive geniuses lost all their mojo and sucked everything they taught Henne after his first season as mostly starter. Honestly I just find it hard to believe that the entire offense has failed Chad Henne.

    I think the offense has been a huge problem this season and Chad Henne is a BIG reason why that is. I would have it 1. Henne, 2. Henning, 3. offensive line.

    I see an offense, where if there was a better quarterbacking would cause the best improvements. Better playcalling would only mask Henne's deficiencies and a better offensive line would take more pressure off of his deficiencies. However better quarterbacking would make playcalling much easier and make the line's job infinitely easier. Plus I still think this is one of the best pass protecting lines in the last 8 years for the Dolphins.
     
  32. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    The ones that did happen were very poorly thrown.

    Watching Marshall play, he generally has had a lack of open space. A lot of his best plays are when players are draped over him. Until Henne was his QB.
     
  33. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Sparano does not really call out indivisual players much. He rarely embarrasses them.
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I love the whole ignorant, egotistical "poor execution" BS excuse they use. They could tell me to perform an alley-oop all they want, but guess what---- I can't dunk, but I guess they could "technically" blame me for the lack of execution.

    Or they could tell a freshman diver to perform a triple-lindy..... and when the kid cracks his head open, I guess they can blame his "lack of execution" for the failure. :glare:

    Here's a tip: If you want to execute, then call plays that actually CAN be executed. And here's another one: don't let the defense know what's coming, b/c guess what?>>>>> believe it or not, there are 11 guys who are trying to stop your "execution". Duh.
     
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  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Where does the lack of any ground game, strength of schedule, injuries at WR, and now complete void of speed play into the equation regarding the offense's poor production?

    Running the ball:

    YPC: 2009- 8th (4.4); 2010- 2nd to last (3.7).

    TDs: 2009- 1st; 2010- dead last.

    1st down %: 2009- 2nd; 2010- 28th.

    YPG: 2009- 4th; 2010- 21st.

    None of this greatly affects an offense's performance?..... or a young QB's for that matter? How about what the Bills player said about our offense being good if we actually had a ground game?
     
  36. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The offense does have a ton of holes on it, I'm not sure where this notion comes from that we have all this talent. Our Oline is iffy at best running the ball is a joke right now and Henning could not call a game to save his life. I think we need to get another option at Qb, a vet to fight for the job or take it from Henne but I don't see blaming the entire year on Henne he hasn't performed greatly but the entire offense has been horrible, asking a 2nd year starter to throw 35 times a game is absurd unless its marino or manning.
     
  37. TheMageGandalf

    TheMageGandalf Senior Member

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    "He can easily be forced to checkdown passes.”

    ROFL...Yeah whats new? Thats news?...Like all of us here didnt CLEARLY see that by watching him in person during TC, then Pre-Season and then Regular Season...

    Oh wait.
     
  38. TheMageGandalf

    TheMageGandalf Senior Member

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    Its the end of the year and after watching him play this season, at this point, he hasnt progressed much. He hasnt regressed from his beginning of the season form, but hasnt progressed much if anything either. Blame it on whomever you want. Analyzing Henne like any other player might seem like its unfair since he plays with 10 other guys on that field at the same time and must also deal with coaches, schemes, situations etc. But that is life in the NFL.

    Every single excuse here by those protecting his soul from the spooky naysayers can be used to defend ANY QB that has played and been a mediocre, average QB in the NFL since the league was formed.

    He is still very average at best and all in all no more than a good option for backup QB at this point. The end.
     
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  39. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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  40. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So every Qb that is average has no running game, a poor oline, a 80 year old OC that sucks, gets yanked when he's on a roll for the Rb to run the offense.....interesting. Look he isn't playing great but its not a bunch of excuses to blame a lot on the lack of running game and horrible coaching, its hard to judge someone when all the pieces arent there. Is Henne a probowl guy like a Marino or Elway? No, but could a team win with him? Not sure on that one when he's played with all of these obstacles this year. I'd like to see us get another Qb either in FA or the draft but Henne's had a rough card dealt to him this year.
     
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