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Alex Smith or Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Shane Falco, Jan 9, 2016.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Really? It's an opinion that...

    1. his oline has been terrible?
    2. his receivers for the majority of his short career have been average to below average?
    3. his coaching has been bad, as it relates to player development and scheme?
    4. his defense has been poor?
    5. the run game has been abandoned?
     
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  2. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, that's one viewpoint. The better viewpoint, in my opinion, is that I don't trust THE OFFENSE to pick it up. I mean, how often do people have to break down third down plays, and show that we rarely had receivers past the sticks, before you stop laying it all on Tannehill?? How often were we in reasonable distances on third down?
     
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  3. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Haha... nice try. Facts are not excuses. They traded to get Graham... you say he doesn't fit. Avg receivers like Floyd? Fitz is old but you better let the Packers know about that ;) . Have you watched Carolina play more than once or twice? Did you notice the difference in the Patriots offense with Edelmann??? In a playoff game I would take him... for a career I would take Landry at this point. Did you leave out Gronk on purpose??? Tannehill doesn't give Cameron the ball... are you kidding??? Who calls the plays for the Dolphins? Who held out on-rushing D linemen? Nobody. Who ran the patterns, who dropped the ball? You have Miller... I guess Tannehill doesn't give him the ball either. Jeez.
    I recall resnor saying mostly everything is the end result of a poor OL. Which is what I agree with. That, and a very weak D.

    How about fixing the OL... then popping off about it all being the QB's fault. Then... you will have a decent argument. With that maybe we can also score 40 points a game and have a chance at winning.

    Every team with a crappy OL struggled. Even Brady had problems when his OL was having injury issues. Plus... he didn't have his lower-WR in the league- Edelmann.
    I don't even understand why all the negativity with the QB. He is OK. WR are OK. TE is OK. 1 DL and about 1 S are all the defense has. Can you name just one of our OL that say the Patriots, Broncos or Packers would want to start on their team???

    I bet you can't.
     
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  4. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Albert, Pouncey, James...... they take nobodies and somehow make them really good. They would take those 3 in a heart beat.

    Brady struggled to leading his team to one of the best records in the NFL, I wish our QB struggled like that :)
     
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  5. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    You are just being negative for no reason... and unreasonable.

    Nobody wants Albert at this point... or the other two. If you are going to take nobodies and make them really good. Take our whole OL.

    Brady struggled when his OL struggled. Maybe you should read up on that a bit.
     
  6. Phins 4 Life

    Phins 4 Life New Member

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    When did Brady struggle this year? Had one of his best seasons to date. Really no body wants Albert, James, or Pouncey? Once again you over exaggerate the struggles of the team and try to minimize how other QBs go through much of the same things. Bad defenses, bad O lines, questionable coaching, etc.
     
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  7. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Check out the Patriots last 4 or 5 games of the season. Look at the last one especially against a struggling-near-last-in-the-league defense. AKA = US

    Name a team that Albert replaces their starting left tackle... because they want to. What the heck do you see in James?

    Pouncy hasn't done much the last few years but mainly because it is like trying to hold your finger in the hole in the dike.
    Impossible.

    Can you give some examples instead of just claiming that I am 'minimizing'? And again for 'exaggerating'?
     
  8. Phins 4 Life

    Phins 4 Life New Member

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    Jimmy Graham didn't fit. For whatever reason he dropped off in targets. Sometimes he wasn't even in the game. They run the ball a lot and having him in their when he can't block hurts. When did Floyd make the pro bowl and become a big name WR? Matthews, Parker, and Landry are just as talented. Have you watched the Panthers play? You mention Olson but after that who does he have to throw to? Ted Ginn and Cotchery? Newton would kill for Landry, Matthews, Parker, and Stills. Those are Newton's best WRs. Edelman isn't an elite WR. Parker, Landry, and Matthews are just as good. In fact I would take Landry and Parker over him without even thinking about it. So Tannehill has the better WR group. Parker, Stills, Matthews, and Landry are better than Edelman and Amendola as a group are they not? Guess you can't read because my point about Gronk was while he does have a great tight end he doesn't have much at WR. Jordan Cameron a pro bowl talent was wasted here in Miami because Tannehill wouldn't give him the ball. Open down the seams numerous times. Wide open against Jacksonville that would have been a win. Tannehill has several options each play. No one is forcing him not to throw Cameron's way. Another Tannehill guy complaining about dropped passes. lmao you do realize that in percentage of dropped passes the Dolphins are top 10 in not dropping the ball right? Dolphins are one of the better team in not dropping passes. But yeah keep going with the narrative that Tannehill has it so much harder than everyone else while the others are golden. No one else has struggles and Tannehill has no talent on his team. The WR, TE, and RB group are just as good if not better than others around the league. As for the offensive line the Patriots and Packers aren't good either dude. Tannehill wouldn't have it much easier on those teams. That is my point. Other QBs have bad offensive lines but they still play at elite level. Its a worn out excuse. There are plenty of teams that would take James, Pouncey, and Albert. Are they not above average offensive linemen? Two of those guys having been pro bowl players. Tannehill wouldn't have it much easier on plenty of other teams in the league why you guys would have everyone believe.
     
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  9. Phins 4 Life

    Phins 4 Life New Member

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    He has a bad offensive line all year and had one of his best seasons ever. So the team had a couple rough games. So what? At the end of the day Brady had one of his best seasons of his career and the team got the #2 seed and are in the AFC title game. He just played the Chiefs D with that bad offensive line and had little trouble. They had pressure for most of the day but Brady gets it out quick.
     
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  10. Phins 4 Life

    Phins 4 Life New Member

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    Exaggerating. Saying Tannehill has **** for talent when he has one of the better WR, RB, and TE groups in the league. Minimizing. Acting like our WR, RB, and TE group are below average and they have this great talent. All the QBs I named have bad offensive lines too with worse or similar talent at RB, WR, and TE.

    Pouncey, Albert, and James are above average linemen. They would start for several teams. Pouncey and Albert the last couple of years have been pro bowl players. Pouncey once again made the pro bowl THIS YEAR. Lmao they haven't done anything the last couple of years? Really?
     
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  11. Phins 4 Life

    Phins 4 Life New Member

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    Really that is your argument now? Every single WR is in front of the sticks? He can have 4 people past the sticks and he still throws it to the check down or WR for a 3 yard completion on 3rd and 8. I've never seen every single target in front of the sticks on a reasonable 3rd down conversion. If that ever did it maybe happened one time.
     
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  12. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Wow... your points/debate are really not worth further comments. Nobody said RT had crap talent around him... just crap OL.

    See ya around.
     
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  13. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I know, disregard facts when they don't fit your narrative. Tannehill threw short because:

    1. That's where the receivers were running routes, and
    2. He didn't have time to wait for deeper routes to develop

    These aren't "excuses." These are facts.
     
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  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    No you're wrong...he threw short because he's dumb, bad at football and doesn't have the sack to throw deep. I mean that and he also called the plays short...probably.

    Don't ever forget, their side of the argument offered up this gem today:

     
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  15. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Seriously... it is as if a couple of people here are agents for a back-up QB or a free-agent one. Or maybe one in the draft. Yeah... let's fix something that ain't broke and don't fix all the major problems that anybody with any brains can plainly see.

    I really do wonder sometimes if all team forums are like this in regards to their current QB. The grass is always greener kind of thing. Probably a few on each site that just can't stand their QB for some reason... and ignore common sense and reasoning because of the blind hatred.
     
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  16. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    The Oline has been sub par, but you guys want to make it seem as if they are by far the worst OLINE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL, but that simply isn't the case.
    The receivers have been avg, which is not a handicap, unless your QB isn't all that good.
    The coaching has been bad as far as leadership, but Tanne has developed TECHNICALLY a tremendous amount, that is the single most impressive thing about his career, how much he's got better TECHNICALLY, so him not being developed is bogus.
    The defense has went from good to above avg to avg to bad, chronologically speaking.
    The run game was poorly utilized, especially this year.

    You see how these are differing opinions.
     
  17. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Well, you are getting there.
     
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  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The oline has been historically bad.

    Average to below average receivers are a huge problem when you have a bad oline and don't run the ball.
     
  19. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Alot of those things are true, but not fact.

    If you're going to just throw blanket statements then it's also fair to say Ryan has underperformed thus far as the quarterback of The Dolphins


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    According to PFF which you guys love to reference, Seattle on average has had a worst offense of line then Miami since Ryan and Russell came into the league.

    So maybe historically is a tad of an exaggeration


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Well, they've set records for sacks in a season.

    And how can something be true, but not a fact?
     
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  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I don't think it's true to say Tannehill underperformed, at all, when you look at the total picture of the team he was playing on.

    But, even if you want to argue he underperformed, my argument would still be that it was to much to ask your young, developing QB to overcome, especially right out of the gates.
     
  23. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All of the above is true.

    It's also true that Ryan hasn't played up to his potential.

    You can argue that the above points, have limited him in playing to his potential. You can also argue that Ryan's own play, has lead to some of those same issues noted above, and has been underwhelming at times when those issues aren't present.

    You're all right. You're all wrong.

    /end allTannehillthreads.
     
  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Read my post above yours.

    Essentially what I said. LOL
     
  25. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Where am I being negative? I said there were 3 guys the Patriots would want, that is being positive, you are the one saying they are worthless.
     
  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The only guy on it line that any team would want would be Pouncey
     
  27. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    good point. How many sacks has Tannehill taken that he never should have? That affects the over all rating of the OL, which one could argue Tannehill is dragging the OL down.
     
  28. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Because ultimately it is opinion based, even though you me and many others agree.

    Kate Upton has a great chest, I think we can all agree on that. But in reality it isnt a "fact" it is an opinion.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  29. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    Everyone together is right, insofar as if you take the average of all of their viewpoints, you arrive at the conclusion that Tannehill is currently an average-level QB, which is true.

    All the bantering back and forth actually creates the consensus "balance" that corresponds to the objective reality.
     
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  30. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Negative regarding RT... which is continuous.
     
  31. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    The proportions of underperforming are massively on the side of the OL... not RT. Even when/if RT 'might' be underperforming (examples?) it could possibly be the super underperforming OL might be the reason for that too.

    Of course a QB that sees the poor performance every game will expect it the next time the situation arises.
     
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  32. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Nah man, I get what you were going for and to a certain extent I agree. Where I disagree is that I think Tannehill has the skills to succeed.

    Even our route combinations were considered archaic and horrible by seemingly everyone. It seems like he's literally had everything against him from a QB coach who probably shouldnt have ever been an NFL coach, to the line, to the route combinations.

    Id just like to give him one year where those things are at least league average ya know?
     
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  33. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Many of the sacks can be put on Tanne, according to the opinion of many, including experts.
     
  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    O rly?

    I hear "experts" all the time point to the oline that Tannehill has had for four years as a consistent stumbling block to his development, and a reason for the high sacks.

    I haven't heard experts saying that the sack totals are so high for Miami because Tannehill is bad in the pocket.

    Are some sacks on Tannehill? Of course. Just like with any QB. But are "many" on him? No. Are there enough on him that it unfairly makes his line seem worse than they are? Absolutely not.
     
  35. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Things is, the QB getting sacked because of something he did wrong does not influence the line at all, they will continue to play as if nothing happened... they are not the ones getting pummeled. But on the other hand, if the OL messes up, it directly influences the QB's playing and the overall offense. An OL has a much greater power to negatively (and conversely, positively) influence a QB's play than the other way around.
     
  36. heylookatme

    heylookatme Well-Known Member

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    Not that I refuse to believe this, but please give an example.
     
  37. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    There is a 0.40 correlation league-wide between the number of pass dropbacks and the percentage of pass dropbacks in which QBs experience pressure. So, the more teams pass the ball, the more they experience pressure.

    There is also a -0.26 correlation between points differential (points scored minus points surrendered) and the number of pass dropbacks. So, when teams are ahead on the scoreboard, they pass the ball less often.

    There is also a 0.73 correlation between adjusted net yards per pass attempt (a measure of quarterback play) and points differential.

    One way of understanding all that is that better QBs score more points, which decreases the need to pass, which decreases pressure on the offensive line from the opposing defense.

    So the possible effect of the QB on the offensive line is much, much broader than illustrated in the quote above.

    The best illustration of this during this past year was the San Diego game, where the Dolphins entered the second half down 23-0, were forced to pass the ball a great deal, and experienced a ton of pressure on backups at left tackle and center (Branden Albert and Mike Pouncey were hurt in the game). Their pass protection looked miserable that day.

    Contrast that with a different sort of game (in theory), where the Dolphins score more in the first half, have a comfortable lead in the second half, and can keep the opposing defense honest by mixing the pass and the run a great deal more. Obviously better QB functioning would contribute to that sort of scenario, and so the possible effect of the QB on the offensive line, again, is much greater than is illustrated in the quote above.
     
  38. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Can you provide a link to an expert saying that Tannehill is the cause of many of the sacks.
     
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  39. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    Based on what I posted above, it would be difficult for anyone, even an expert, to determine how many sacks Tannehill was responsible for, because it's difficult to determine how responsible Tannehill was for situations in which the team had to pass the ball more and couldn't keep opposing defenses honest, thus leaving the offensive line more susceptible to pressure.

    The Payton Manning Colts constructed their team around this premise. The idea was to get up on the scoreboard early via Manning and company, make the opposing team have to mount a comeback via the passing game, and then unleash Dwight Freeney and company, making it very difficult for opposing teams to mount such a comeback.

    Obviously this can work in reverse, as well, where a QB has trouble scoring points, allowing his team to be down on the scoreboard and making it have to pass the ball to come back, and leaving his offensive line susceptible to the pass rush from an opposing defense that doesn't have to respect the run game.

    Again, there is no telling how responsible Tannehill was for such situations in 2015, and so there is no telling how responsible he was for sacks that came via the increased pressure in these sorts of situations.
     
  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    And yet, you're completely disregarding the run game. If they busy a couple big runs for tds, the score goes up, and you can end up in a game where they have a comfortable lead, without Tannehill having had to have had better functioning.

    Of course, logic was thrown out the window by the staff the last couple seasons in regards to running the ball.
     

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