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are the jets better than us

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dullfandan, Oct 8, 2013.

  1. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Why is it self hating to state the obvious? I have watched on TV or attended every game the Dolphins have played this year. So while there have been some signs of improvement at certain positions, (QB, WR, and place kicker). This team really hasn't improved in the secondary, at LB, or especially in the OL.

    Their draft so far hasn't provided the team with one single starter on offense or defense. We keep hearing that Jordan is going to be great, but in five games he has made two plays. Some people explain the lack of play by these rookies as Philbin just wanting to bring them along slowly. Unfortunately for Philbin, by the time these rookies finally get a chance to play next year or the year after, he may be long gone. If Tannehill could come in and start at the most important position on the team last year as a rookie. There is no reason these rookies can't be given the same opportunity this year.

    This team is not a playoff team this year, so what exactly would be lost by starting some of these rookies? Especially Jordan, Taylor, Davis as your nickle CB, (when he is healthy), Thomas, and Sims.

    The Jets are starting two rookies on offense and two on their defense. They have the same record as the Dolphins, but were expected to one of the worst teams in the NFL this season. This was suppose to be a rebuilding year for them, while the Dolphins were suppose to be the Patriots main contender in the division.

    Once again Ireland screwed up the draft and he did only a so-so job in free agency. Dolphin fans aren't self haters. We merely want a GM who can build a consistent winner. It is almost laughable that the Jets have done as good a job rebuilding in one off season as Ireland has done in six years. It is time for Ireland to go and I don't mean once this season is over. If Ross could fire Sparano in mid season, there is no reason he can't fire Ireland NOW.
     
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  2. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    The Jets off season was lampooned by the NY media. They traded their best defensive player and drafted a QB that most people think stinks. Their first pick has either been hurt or benched for poor play. One of their FA RB's was arrested for drugs and weapons before camp even started. But hey - I'm glad you think they've done a terrific job! :D

    Edit: I forgot to mention the FA signing of David Garrard, who promptly retired.
     
  3. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If anyone watched MNF, the Jets defense looked very very good. Even that CB Walls opposite Cromartie I thought looked solid. That one yard stop to end the half was impressive.

    We have to force Geno to throw to the outside. He loves to throw inside...he loves the seams to TEs, slants to the wr and deep crossing patterns. You have to watch the read option as well.
     
  4. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    You have already given up on this season...but you are not a self hating fan. Oh...kay.
     
  5. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Miami has a lot of guys that can be used effectively as sub package rushers in Vernon, Misi, and Shelby, or even just as a regular sub if someone needs a breather/gets injured. I just don't really see an overall method behind the defensive scheme. Are they trying to be more of a traditional 4-3 like Cincinnati has become? If so, they need to get more out of Dion Jordan at DE. Are they trying to make the defense adapt and be able to play over/under fronts without shifting, thus making both OLB spots the same? I thought they were doing that for a while, then they came out and played a lot of under fronts against Baltimore. None of what they've done has been overly effective versus the run or pass. I think their run average is as low as it is because the Cleveland game got out of reach and forced the Browns to pass a lot, and New Orleans was so damn surgical, they didn't really need to run. I do agree that Wheeler as a 3-4 ILB might be iffy, but if you can use him in the relative capacity San Francisco uses Navarro Bowman, I think he can be effective. Ellerbe's been in a 3-4 scheme until this year.

    I see the makings of a pretty good defense, but it hasn't been born out that way. I hate to use the following analogy, especially with you knowing my where my baseball allegiances are, but Kevin Coyle's scheme, to me, is akin to Dusty Baker trying to set a batting order.
     
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  6. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    It's hard to say at this point. Now that they've survived the failed Mark Sanchez experiment, I fear they may start moving in the right direction. Through all of this, they still have a pretty good OL. If Geno can continue to make plays, they will be dangerous.
     
  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nice giving up on your team when your on the record saying that you'd be happy with a three and 2 start buddy...

    Were gonna be 4 and 2 after the bye, probabaly in first place, and that's your attitude...man JDub, is there such a thing as self righteous fan.lol

    The jets will have to beat the dolphins For your points to have any validity, at this stage.
     
  8. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    well I hate to say it but if our qb is getting sacked 24 times in 5 games how can any fan say we are better then a team who has a defense that gives up less point then Miami does.

    what will be bad is if we get swept by the jets and pats and barely beat the bills . my biggest fear is for Tannyhill getting sacked like a bag of potatoes and getting killed behine this horrific oline .
     
  9. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    :lol: They're better because their D has given up 1 less point? They haven't played the Saints yet either.
     
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  10. Marino1384

    Marino1384 Member

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    Lol how? They give up up the same points per game as we do (we give up 23.4 they give up 23.2) we've played against the colts and saint, both top offense. Best they've played we're the falcons(who we gave up less points to and rank 12th) and the titans who trashed them and are ranked 15th. Even the ravens have a better offense then the titans. Dolphins have played way better teams and offenses. That's with a backup corner and without wake mostly who will both be back after the bye.
     
  11. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    The PPG stat is a little misleading because of the inordinate amount of short fields the Jets offense has given the other team. Miami gives up almost 100 yards more per game that NY. But I get it. Miami was projected to have a top tier defense this year. It's still early.
     
  12. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    How can you mention the "inordinate amount of short fields" for NY's defense and then make a statement about how Miami gives up more yards? Isn't that part of the nature of a playing from a short field--- less yards for an opposing offense to tack on? So I'm not really sure your point.

    Here's a couple fun stats:
    Takeaways: Miami- 9; Jets- 3 [3rd worst in NFL].
    Passes defended: Miami- 28; Jets- 8. [worst in the NFL]

    And yeah, Miami was projected to have a top defense... with Wake and the rest of the crew on the field together and at least moderately healthy. Miami held Indy to 14 points less than they scored against Seattle and 7 less than San Fran. Atlanta scored just 23 despite half the defense injured. New Orleans got 3 TDs off possessions that started in Miami territory. Baltimore had 6 points at halftime against our injured defense, but saw running success in the second half after losing our starting MLB too. So spare me the "but I get it" babble.
     
  13. Marino1384

    Marino1384 Member

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    Even so without looking at my points per game argument, miami's d has created more turnovers (second most important stat to defense besides ppg to me atleast) miami has 9 turnovers to the jets 3 and even taking out miamis best game vs a crappy browns team and miami still is up 5-3 with miami playing in 1 less game and vs better opponents. Jets have 3 more sacks but miami has played 3 games our best player in wake who changes games completely. Once wake is back at full health with dion finally getting some snaps and d could be scary. Yards per game is completely irrelevant. A team can start at the 20 yard line and drive 40 yards per drive for 11 drives and end the game with 440 yards and very few points. Bend but not break and create turnovers is what defines good defense now in such a pass happy league. Not since the 2000 ravens have we seen a true 3 and out team and even with them that was before passing rules were altered. Jets have a good d, just not better then miamis. With that said its the nfl so there's really no comparing who's better as a team without them playing against each other. Some teams strengths and weaknesses match up better with other teams then others. Comparing the jets dolphins and you have our weakness on offense as our oline and run run game against the jets strength in defending the run an their front seven. However our strength on offense is wr and tight end which matches up vs the jets secondary weakness. On the flip miami with a healthy soliai and cam wake bolsters one of the best front 7 as our strength against a solid run game and oline. However our secondary is our weakness but jets wr's and an inexpierenced geno smith is theirs. All depends on who shows up and who doesn't. On paper I like miami over the jets but I'm a biased miami fan and paper doesn't mean a thing.
     
  14. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    NOLA should have scored 45, but Sproles coughed up the ball at the end. And they scored on all those short fields, yet you still are ranked 25th is yards allowed per game? Interesting.

    Not sure why you are getting hostile. Miami has not been a top defense thus far. But like I already stated, it's early. It's a 16 game season and at the end we will see how these defenses are.
     
  15. finwin

    finwin Active Member

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    Great, Geno's best at the stuff we suck most at defending. This guy has really improved from his opening two games especially with his accuracy. I'd say the Jets are as good as us. It was a tough loss to Balt. The offense really cost us that game. You shouldn't lose when your D gets you two TO's and a TD. Tannehill had a 6 quarter slump that began with Q1 in NO and ended with Q3 against the Ravens. That to me is inconsistant Offensive team play. It's very encouraging that his play in Q4 is outstanding.
     
  16. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    the "but I get it comment" was a little snide so I responded accordingly. Your attempt to assess our defense based on current yards allowed is like trying to assess a boxer's ability despite a broken wrist.

    Wake: inactive the past 3 weeks.
    Soliai: injured knee week 2; inactive week 3; questionable week 4; still working back from it.
    Vaugh Martin [backup DT]: IR after week 3 injury.
    Dimitri Patterson
    [#2 CB]: inactive the past 3 weeks after posting 2 INTs the first 2 weeks.
    Nolan Carroll [#3 CB]: missed the 2nd half vs Baltimore w/ ankle injury
    Jamar Taylor [#4 CB, 2nd rounder]: inactive the first 3 weeks from injury
    Will Davis [#5 CB, 3rd rounder]: inactive with injury most of the season
    Chris Clemons: battling hamstring/quad/glute injuries the past 3 weeks
    Jimmy Wilson [backup S/CB]: played through hamstring/groin injury for 3 weeks
    Ellerbe: missed 2nd half vs Baltimore w/ shoulder injury; missed time vs Atlanta w/ rib/pectoral injury that he'd been battling since week 2.
    Misi: missed most of Atlanta w/ shoulder injury and was questionable against Saints; still working back from it.
    Wheeler: missed time against Atlanta
    Jonathan Freeny [backup LB]: playing through shoulder injury since week 1
    Dion Jordan: was set back b/c of shoulder injury; played through it the first 3 weeks


    So against Atanta: without Wake, Soliai, #2 CB, #4 CB, and #5 CB, and with all 3 starting LBs and backup DT leaving the field with injury we only allowed 23 pts. Obviously that carried over into the following week against New Orleans, and like I said- Miami's injury hampered D allowed just 6 first half points against Baltimore until the starting ILB and active starting #2 corner [Carroll] left with injury, joining Wake & Patterson on the sideline.
     
  17. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    I think we're slightly better right now, but it's close. But yeah, missing 4 or 5 significant starters, missing out hands down best player and line all-pro/ game changer...and Having been down starting corner(s), one of the best DTs in the league missing games and being banged up, and a slew of other medical issues...yes, we're a only just a little bit better right now.
     
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  18. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    That being said, I <3 bickety
     
  19. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If you want to believe that, that's fine. I won't stop you. I'll even concede that I believe Miami has more talented individual players on defense than the Jets. But their defense, as a team unit, is better than Miami's is.

    Even Miami's defense from 2012, is better than this year's defense. I'd bet most of Miami's numbers from last year will be better as well, as compared to this year's, by the end of the season. I think Miami's defense should be a lot better than it is, and I'd think the overall numbers Miami posts are going to improve; but that improvement in my opinion, will be more due to playing teams with poorer offenses than Miami's defense getting better. Ultimately, if Miami misses the playoffs, the defense is going to have just as much to do with it as poor offensive line play. Kevin Coyle has not done a good job at putting people in positions to make plays this year. If anything, he's gotten even more wreckless with his blitz schemes and disguises (i.e. he's trying to play too much like Cincinnati with the wrong personnel) and it's burned them, and unfortunately, I think it will continue to burn them down the road.
     
  20. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    And the Jets defense has been a pillar of health. Good to see you, Todd.
     
  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Really, you've been without Wilkerson the past 3 weeks? Do you even beat Atlanta if he's on the sideline?

    IIRC you were without Coples the first few weeks and without the rookie Milliner since part way through week 3. Outside of that I don't think you've had a defender questionable for action, have you?

    You've been w/o your starting #2 CB. Miami has seen considerable time w/o #2, #4, #5..... and then #3 vs Baltimore.
    All 3 starting LBs have missed time with injury. How many for NY?
    Miami's best defender has missed the past 3 weeks? How many games has Wilkerson missed?
    Miami's best run-stuffer (a 2011 Pro Bowler) has missed time with a knee injury? How 'bout for the Jets best run stuffer?
     
  22. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    the jests had an excellent Monday night game & they are 3/2.
    got to give the devil his due
    the parity in the NFL is astounding
     
  23. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Nice immature, straw argument type stuff as well as attacking the poster again rather than addressing the post and answering legitimate questions. All I did was point out how injury-plagued Miami's defense has been this year in response to your statement about us allowing 100 more yards per game. I provide injury stats to support it; meanwhile you say "you've got better things to do" than support yours.

    Not once did I argue it was a #1 D.... and considering it's been the 7th & 6th best scoring D the past two years, Miami fans aren't loco in cabeza for speaking highly about it when it's not plagued with injury, especially now that it's creating more turnovers and impact plays than in the past.


    BTW, I realize you're becoming hostile b/c you were sensitive about the way Miami fans commented on the Jets-Falcons game. Newsflash for you though: this is a DOLPHINS forum. We shouldn't have to fluff the Jets, censure the content of our posts, or ignore a few big breaks the Jets got against Atlanta just b/c there's a NY fan in our presence. I used to get along with you great, even PM'd back and forth a few times IIRC, but it doesn't change the fact I despise the Jets just like every other Miami fan, and just like every other Miami fan I should be able to enjoy the full right to yap in a Dolphins forum about a Jets game. If you didn't like what we were saying you could've retreated to a Jets forum. It's not like we invaded GangGreen and started talking smack; we were in our own back yard. It's also pretty low of you to attack a poster for supporting Henne when you yourself were an outspoken supporter too, using much of the same argument I did in saying it was too soon to throw in the towel.
     
  24. Zeke0123

    Zeke0123 message board ******* Club Member

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    I just hope jest fans start calling the rook "Smithchise".
     
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  25. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Self hating means I hate myself. I certainly don't hate myself. As far as liking the job Ireland has done putting this team together. No I am not happy with the job he has done as this teams GM for the past six years.
    I NEVER thought this team was a playoff caliber team going into the season. They still had far too many holes on offense and defense. I just figure that after six years on the job, Ireland has been given plenty of time to get it right and he has failed to do so.
    I attend all the home games and I traveled to the game against the Saints. So I still support the players on the team. It is Ireland I don't support and it is Ireland I want replaced. This team will never be anything more than mediocre as long as he is the GM of this team.
     
  26. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    They have to come up with something better than that.
     
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  27. HULKFish

    HULKFish Artist and Scribe

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    FYI - There should be no compliments to the New York Jets on this forum. BANS all around! :wink2:
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Man... I think some of this is a real stretch, Todd. No offense.

    First off, you're quoting hurts guys are actually playing with. Go over to NFL.com's official injury report page some time and just take a look at the number of players that appear on there with some hurt or another that they're actually playing with. There's nothing absurd that Miami has been dealing with. Every team has those things, and many of them far more than Miami.

    Jamar Taylor and Will Davis were not even needed while they were out. Will Davis still has not been needed and he's been a healthy scratch for I think like 2 or 3 games now.

    Phil Wheeler has missed a total of like 19 of 376 snaps this year. Is that even something that really deserves to be on the list, or is it just filler to make the list seem more impressive?

    And I wouldn't exactly say that Jonathan Freeny is "playing" through anything. He's had 7 snaps this year. All of them in Week 5.

    Essentially the only things that need to be cited are that Cam Wake hasn't played much in 3 out of 5 games (he was only inactive for one game), Paul Soliai missed a game, Dimitri Patterson missed 4 of 5 games, and Dannell Ellerbe missed the better part of a game. To me, everything aside from those notes are just filler to make the list of injuries seem more significant than it really is.
     
  29. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    I'm as sick of seeing posts about underperforming QBs being compared to Manning as I am underperforming tackles being compared to Duane Brown. Thanks for triggering my overwhelming hatred for those two things all over again.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I should mention I'm not necessarily convinced Dimitri Patterson should be starting over Nolan Carroll anyway and if he does come back to the starting lineup after the bye week that could be a source of potential weakness until Miami figures out that he should only be on the field on nickel downs as a slot corner.

    But even that...Jimmy Wilson has flat out shocked me by not being a consistently exploitable weakness. He's allowing 1.21 yards per coverage snap and 7.8 yards per target, and while those are not exactly great (or even good), they're way better than I expected. Dimitri Patterson will/should be better if he takes over the nickel role though.
     
  31. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Self Hating Dolphin Fan means Hating your team (The Dolphins) for no apparent reason. THis team save for the O-Line is really good. Really good as in 10-6 good. Elite is 11 or more wins.
     
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  32. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Are you saying the 2010 Jets were an elite team?! Come on. 12 is the bare minimum for elite in my book, and I prefer 13. But I get your point and I agree that Miami is a good team.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm not party to whatever debate you have going but I'll chime in long enough to suggest that 12 wins should probably be considered a bare minimum for elite status if you're including playoffs.
     
  34. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    They lost in the AFC Championship game.

    YES. they were an Elite Team.
     
  35. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Man, if I were so inclined I'd go back and pull posts from then, lol. I'm fairly certain "elite' wouldn't be found!
     
  36. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    I remember. I was arguing to give credit. The year before was a fluke. That year..you had a legitimate "elite" team.
     
  37. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    No.
     
  38. Dolphins1Beatles

    Dolphins1Beatles Ziggy Stardust

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    Jets have a better O-Line (as does most of the league). But other than that there isn't much else I'd rather have. Including their RB's who would probably be about the same as ours behind our line. Although I'd take Powell over Thomas.

    Obviously I'd take Tannehill over Smith. He kept us in the game despite 22 rushing yards, 6 sacks from our cardboard cutout o-Line (though he should move around more and throw it away more), and a couple dropped passes that would've given us more points and a victory. The defenses are about the same, Jets have given up 116 points & Miami 117 points, though Miami faced 5-0 NOLA in the Superdome and the 4-1 Colts in Indy. Two road games against two of the best offenses in the NFL, and one was a victory, the Colts' only loss this season. And that includes wins over SF and Seattle.

    Which makes the Ravens loss even more frustrating, though with all the sacks, no run game, and those two bad PI calls that gave Balt 7 points, we were in it until the last second.
     
  39. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    If our o-line ever gets their **** together, no. No way they are better than us.
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I understand what you're saying but I disagree. I took into consideration the league-wide injury report when making my post. I understand a lot of guys play through injury but there's a difference between being "probable" [which is what most of the injured players around the league are] and being "questionable" [which is what most of Miami's injured defenders have been at some point this season].

    When we have a starting corner sidelined with injury, I disagree that our 2nd & 3rd round corners aren't needed..... and when we have a fill-in starting corner go down against Baltimore I disagree that Jamar Taylor's performance would've remained uninfluenced had he spent the entire season & preseason playing and practicing rather than on the sideline.

    I mentioned Wheeler & Freeny b/c they're compounding the issue at LB because of Misi & Ellerbe already missing time with injury and playing through injury.

    And all of what I said is significant b/c we're not just talking about players sporadically being injured across an entire season; we're talking about much of the defense missing time against Atlanta b/c of injury, then playing through those injuries the following week against New Orleans, and then facing a new string of injuries against Baltimore when we were already w/o Wake & Paterson and while other defenders were still recovering from earlier injuries. Like I said, it's a compounding affect. Misi alone playing through injury doesn't mean much by itself. Clemons alone playing through injury doesn't mean much. However when half the defense is playing through injury together while Wake, Patterson, Ellerbe, and Carroll are on the sideline, it means something. The Packers had the #2 scoring D in 2010; in 2011 while riddled with similar injury problems they dropped to 19th.
     
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