Are We Really Considering Antoine Bethea?

Hes a really good player, but not worth a first rounder in my opinion. For a second? Id probably bite.

 

Rather do that than spend our #12 on Marshall, I think.

 

It all would depend on how the front office views the safety spot.

Still, wouldnt the colts have the ability to match any offer that another team makes?

 

For one of the best safeties in football who's still just 26? No way is the 12 too steep. His best years are ahead of him and he might be the best all round safety in the league.

 

If a fs was in this draft that you knew gave u bethea's stats would u not take him?

it isnt like he is an 8+ yr vet w/ limited tread, he is young, coming into his own. with bethea your getting a proven eric berry

 

I agree, but many on this board said no to the same thinking when it comes to Denver WR Marshall. While Marshall could be trouble off the field, Bethea has never shown that and would be a probowler with the 12 pick. To me a no brainer. I do think Indy matches any offer on him.

 

I think hes definitely worth a shot, hes coming into his prime, has no off field baggage like a Marshall, and he fills a need. If he was in this draft class we would be looking at him at #12 anyway so why not put an offer. If we get him great if not Indy matches it and we are no worse for it, its not like we would be missing out on other safeties or players for that matter while we wait the week for Indy to decide to if it is going to match the offer.

 

If I told you that you could draft a FS with the 12th pick that was a two time pro bowler then you run to the podium to take him. The difference between that pick and Bethea would be the additional salary cost and that he's 26 instead of 22.

 

And, Indy got him in the 6th round??? Man, why can't we do that?! Polian is a friggin' genius!

 

Any word on what his price tag would be?

I don't think Indy would let him leave though, but eh, to hold the #12 and the #31, they might be willing to part ways?

 

Sean, he was tendered a 1st round pick. So the price tag would be the #12 pick and a contract in excess of what Antrel Rolle got in NY.

 

so the question to me becomes what is the #12 overall pick in the draft going to get, and is the risk of him turning into a pro-bowler worth keeping the pick over taking bathea (if we can get him)?

 

Sure why not? Let's spend more draft picks and insane money marginally improving our defense while continuing to ignore the offense.

 

IMO a safety would go a long way in helping this team.

 

I wouldn't say no way it's not because of the value of that pick but I could get on board with dealing it for a proven player. Anytime you can get a proven player that still can get better, that is young, that can go a long way in helping solidify your team, for a draft choice, you should pull the trigger. I know some value draft choices highly and I'm the same way. However, production over potential is what I've always felt is right and Bethea is production.

 

Gotcha. That was moreso geared towards the Salary we'd have to pay him, I guess it makes sense that he obviously gets to pick his price, since he's an FA and not a trade. I guess just all in all I get confused over Salary in the NFL. Too many big numbers

Thanks!

 

The best thing about getting a player like Bethea is that you can stash him in the box or have him roam the centrefield. He's played that role in Indianapolis. He's been the single high safety and the robber. The Colts go to a Cover 1 pretty often from what I remember and then use the Cover 3 (or Tampa 2, whichever one wishes to call it) on third down.

Bethea can do a lot of things for this team.

 

I won't disagree that the safety position needs help. But I'm of the opinion that in today's NFL offense wins championships. And improving our offense would improve our defense.

Put Ed Reed in his prime on this defense and, sure, he's going to help. He'll make some big plays and maybe even score 1-3 TDs. But will a safety help this team more than a #1 WR? IMHO, no.

Again, spending money / draft picks on defense only helps the defense. And the best defenses in this league have been eaten alive by the best offenses. Improving your offense helps the offense and the defense at the same time. Just look at the Saints. You don't think that defense had an easier time playing with 2-3 score leads all the time? They made offense a priority and then made a few tweaks to the defense and have a superbowl to show for it. What the Saints are doing today might not have worked 10 years ago, but it works today.

 

I don't mean to sidetrack this thread but you state offense wins championships, which I won't argue but let me ask you this; what do you need to stop opposing teams offenses? A defense. You also need a damn good secondary IMO, especially at safety because the that's the last line of the defense and it's been under appreciated by many over the years IMO. The safety is a big time position IMO.

Do you think we can get a # 1 at the twelfth pick? How many # 1's do you see in this Draft? I see one, maybe two. One is Dez Bryant, which I would honestly be surprised if he slipped. The second (maybe) is Golden Tate. Would you take Tate over Bethea?

I also think a TE helps this team more than a WR.

The Saints were not SB contenders until they hired Greg Williams and upgraded the MIKE spot as well as the back line of the defense IMO.

I respect your opinion, always have, but kindly disagree.

 

It would pretty much change the equation on the defensive side of the ball. I can't help but think that Bethea would be a matter of a trade though. We'd probably try to move around to make a deal where we acquire a pick to trade down then we trade a lower first for him. Perhaps see if a team will offer a third. There's a thing to be said about getting proven no baggage talent. Never overestimate talent. Never. Take the young given hand.

 

Stringer Bell brought something up in the Club Level and it was a great point IMO. Do we really think Indy would take the 12th overall pick for Bethea? Wouldn't they want a couple more picks instead of just one? If they wanted, say, a 2nd and a 6th, would you do it? I honestly would. I think they would too. They can hit with their picks, they are successful drafters for a while now.

 

Correct however remember that their primary need is on the offensive line and the 12 would be key for acquiring a left tackle.

 

This class is pretty deep though. They could take Rodger Saffold or a guy like Charles Brown at 31 and be happy.

 

A Defense can go a long way though, the argument of "winning via this squad of your players" aside.

I mean look at the Jets, they are VERY Much like us in terms of offense. Lackluster passing (which we rate a little better than them at I'd say), a tough as nails run attack, coupled with a monster offensive line. The difference? They had the best defense in the league, and that got them into the AFC Championship match.

The point I'm trying to make is that teams that are stacked in one direction do well, the teams that are balanced overall seem to do the best however. And right now we're horribly lopsided on Defense based on the numbers from last year. Our Offense was within the top 15 if I recall. Our defense was within the bottom 10 in most categories.

Both sides of the ball still need work though, unfortunately.

 

There are teams that would like the 12th overall pick dearly. I'm sure a team would be willing to take a cheap offer of moving up to the 12th pick pre-draft day to acquire say McClain, possibly Graham, or the like. If we force Indianapolis' hand and see if they're willing to make the move the issue changes. Arizona is one possibility. Perhaps San Diego is also in the equation.

Going into the draft with a

2-
3-
3-
4-
6-
6-
6-
7-
7-

Could still really fill some out some of the problems on defense.

 

I agree that the secondary and safety is important. I just think offense should be a priority at this point, because of my belief that a strong offense helps your defense. My thinking is that if we improve the defense, but still struggle to be explosive on offense, we're still going to lose games. If we improve on offense, I think we can win with the defense we have now (+ improvements made in coaching and later in the draft). We saw this from 2007 to 2008. We didn't make any DRASTIC changes to the defense yet they performed night and day difference from 2007. The difference was our offense. With Chad Pennington engineering long scoring drives and putting points on the board our defense was able to play aggressive. If we already had our #1 WR, I wouldn't be opposed to spending a high pick, big cash on a safety.

Honestly I don't know enough about any of these players to answer your question. Not to turn this into another Brandon Marhsall thread, but I think that would be where our pick and money would be best spent, despite the risk which IMO, is outweighed by his enormous talent and potential. I think we already made a mistake in passing on Boldin.

How? Honest question. Maybe a tight end like Gates that can score 5+ TDs and be a consistent thread in the red zone.

Agreed. But they addressed the offense first. In the meantime, with that offense they made the conference championship game, were competetive even in the 7-9 and 8-8 seasons, and were a lot of fun to watch.

The feeling is mutual.

 

12 and 43 for Bethea and the 31, plus a fifth from Indianapolis I think would be a fair trade. 31 would be a nice place to draft Gresham and give Henne a nice target in the passing game. In the third we could add yet a solid prospect at WR.

Who knows if we get lucky perhaps we force the pick swap and maybe send a couple of sixths and get away with high way robbery. I don't think Indianapolis can afford giving Bethea say 5/35m.

 

A strong defense helps your offense too. Very good defense means it holds the opposition to a low amount of points, which means not a lot of pressure on your offense. i honestly think if we add a seam busting tight end, we could be fine offensively.

I would spend my twelfth pick on Bethea ever time if I had the opportunity to choose between him and Marshall. I honestly would. If it was a guy like Andre Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald, you got my vote.

A seam buster creates a lot of problems for safeties. Gives more space to work with for WR's and more opportunities IMO.

Is the goal to be competitive or to win the Super Bowl? Because when they were competitive with a lack luster defense, they didn't go to the SB and win it. When they brought in Greg Williams, Vilma, Sharper, Harper stayed healthy, Jabari Greer and Malcolm Jenkins, etc., they became SB champions.

Thank you.

 

How does putting up big points and getting into a shootout help your defense if you can't stop anyone. You do realize we gave up 390 points last season right? Did you watch the Marino years when we could score at will?

As for the Saints, they won the SB on a defensive play.

 

Production over potential all day every day.

The difference to me is with a WR -vs- a Safety is this. The WR relies on the QB to be accurate, looking his way.... The safety can make a play on most of the balls in the air.

I would rather take a productive, young all pro over a potentially good player that could take years to develop.

 

P-P-P-P-Poison pill.

 

IMO poor safety play led to more losses than the lack of a # 1. I think when you're last line is poor, it kind of makes everything disproportional. Players at other positions are asked to do more to compensate and it makes things more difficult in general.

 

If they're considering a 1st for him I think they'll eventually come around to the idea of offering Atogwe a contract. I can honestly say with certainty we would have probably won three more games with Bethea, I have no doubt about that. The Indy game, the New Orleans game, and perhaps a couple more. It was that bad.

 

A good offense should have no problem putting points on the board with or without pressure. I agree there are ways a defense can help an offense, such as turnovers and field position. But that doesn't actually help the offense play better in the same way the performance of an offense can make playing defense easier.

Fair enough. I think Brandon Marshall is pretty close, but not equal to those two players. Maybe not when you factor in attitude.

I wouldn't be upset with any player that improves our offense. I still think a deep threat and explosive player at WR helps the offense more than a TE.

Win the superbowl of course. My point was I think the Saints fixed their team in the right order. If they had addressed defense first, I think they would have never made the playoffs in those 3 years, and would still be struggling to find their way on offense. And I don't think we can win the superbowl without improving our offense. I think with a major improvement(s) to the offense and minor improvements to the defense we can compete for the superbowl. I think with major improvements to defense and no to little improvement to offense we will remain stagnant.

You're Welcome!

 

Our first rounder is not the only way to improve the offense in fact I'd say it's the worst way to improve the offense. Going into next year with Dansby, moving Crowder to the TED, and having Bethea-Bell over the top will go a long way to addressing what was wrong with the team last year.

 

IMO we face a bit of a dilemma if we trade away our 1st rounder. If we trade for Bethea or Marshall then great, we add a elite player at a position of need. But it seems to me that our biggest need is at OLB, and if we don't address that at #12 who the heck are we going to play there?

 

If we don't address SOLB it really isn't all that big of a concern in the sense that we can easily bring back last year's starter and draft another guy at 43 in a talented class. Perhaps we trade for Cliff Avril. Joey Porter was pretty poor last year, losing him in the rotation doesn't bother me.

It's not like Morgan if we draft him will light the world on fire. A rookie DE means nothing even if he's a first. We may draft a rookie first round pick and he may not even start at SOLB.

 

Turnovers and field position do help the offense play better IMO. Less ground to cover, higher chance of scoring. It's all in the hidden yardage. In this league, you're not going to score every possession, as you know, so you won't be able to out score the opposition consistently IMO.

Tough to not factor that in.

To each their own.

To each their own. I think with a seam busting tight end which you don't have to take twelfth overall, the offense is fine. The defense still needs work.