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Armando's Article, which I agree with.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by KB21, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I've long felt that any desire on Miami's part to pursue Peyton Manning is largely driven by the owner. He falls into the same trap most fans fall into when looking at an aging, injured quarterback who suddenly becomes available. That trap is the idea that the quarterback will suddenly become what he once was when he was in his prime and be the saving grace and answer to the team's superbowl question. It's also the same trap the Dolphins have fallen into in the past, which is the trap of bringing in the older, veteran quarterback as a bridge to the future. In all cases, that future did not come.

    While some may say that your future is not guaranteed and that you should always play for the now, these are some of the same people who felt it was better to intentionally lose games for the betterment of the future. So, you cannot have it both ways. Somehow, this is a team that has gone from being one that should intentionally lose games to get Andrew Luck to a team that is an instant Superbowl Champion if they signed an older, injured Peyton Manning.

    I think the best point that was made in this article was this one. Joe Philbin was brought in from the Packers to bring that philosophy and culture to Miami. If that is the case, then Miami should be making moves that would ensure sustainable success and not make a move with the idea that we will get instant success and deal with the future when that time comes. In the Green Bay philosophy, signing Peyton Manning is a move that would not be made. As was stated, Green Bay was on the other end of the spectrum. They let go of the older, former franchise quarterback to move on with the younger, potential franchise quarterback. Now, Green Bay will be consistent superbowl contenders for the next several years, as Aaron Rodgers is just now entering the prime of his career. It's not a surprise that the Green Bay philosophy largely stems from the days of the Bill Walsh 49ers, who initiated the plan to replace the aging Joe Montana with the younger Steve Young in the late '80s.
     
  2. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    You are agreeing with Armando , duly noted.
     
  3. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I just want this team to be relevant again. And to start winning again.
    I don't give 2 craps how it's done.
     
  4. Die_Nasty

    Die_Nasty Well-Known Member

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    You know that something is severely wrong if you start agreeing with Armando's thought processes. Either your brain’s facilities have deteriorated to the point of no return :sad:, or you have been sipping on the moon juice that the weekend brings in greater abundance. :up:

    Give me Peyton Manning any day of the week. He is the greatest QB of my time, and one of the greatest of all time. If he gives us 80% of that for 2+ years, it would be a homerun. A competent veteran QB now, would not only produce wins in the present, but also allow for the development of the future. I’d rather take a chance on a known commodity, than spend guaranteed money on a possible commodity. :yes:
     
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  5. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Having read this article there are several points I would disagree with. First and foremost for one to really believe that Ross would/will over rule his Football people (Ireland and Philbin) one would have to throw out all of the past history and movement of the last 2 months!
    !. Ross did NOT hire an experenced HC And in fact put that coach on notice of no answer by Friday and we move on. My take from that is that the Fisher chase was as much driven by Fan wants as Ross wants and it was pointed out to Ross by Ireland and others better names were in the hat. Ross listened to his people then and I would imagine he will do so concerning this QB question also. This guy wants a winner!
    2. Does Ross want Manning, hell yeah, so do alot of other people too!
    3. Ireland has stated he is open to both a short term and long term answer to this question. What more could he say and still avoid the tampering tag?
    4. The same goes for Philbin about Flynn with his comment of knowing about a person could be looked at as good or bad ..... VERY TRUE!
    5. Ross is not Jerry Jones thus I don't see him as being pigheaded about who it is as much as he damn well better win NOW and for the foreseeable future. Therefore if Ireland and Philbin have a concensus about who is the best pick for the dolphins now and for the future Ross will be on board with that QB whoever he might be!

    Mando can stir this pot all he wants ......... I'm not impressed by his logic or his writing ability; on this subject anyway!
     
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  6. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    So I see that the fan point of view is one of denial that signing Peyton Manning is a short term move only and does nothing to address the future. You say having Peyton Manning around will allow for the development of the future. Did Indy develop the future of the position behind Peyton Manning?

    I continue to see this ridiculous notion that Peyton Manning at 85% is still an elite quarterback. Please tell me where this notion comes from? It's like the fact that he has had a Hall of Fame career will have an effect on his ability to recover from injury. It completely ignores the fact that a 100% Peyton Manning today is not the same as a 100% Peyton Manning at the age of 27 or 28. So, when you get an 85% Peyton, you are not getting 85% of him from his prime years. You are getting 85% of him from now.
     
  7. Die_Nasty

    Die_Nasty Well-Known Member

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    I think that the situation in Indianapolis led to their eventual downfall, not having Peyton Manning. I think that they allowed having Peyton Manning to be their entire identity, and they had no back up plan without him. I personally don't forsee us laying all our cards down on Manning, I see us drafting another QB, ie. Tannehill, Weeden, Osweiler, Foles, etc. to have at the point that Manning retires or is unable to further QB for the Miami Dolphins.

    It's a simple difference in opinion, I think Peyton Manning will be a QB that will play at a level that will allow us to win games. You don't, point taken. I'm sorry if my joking around about you agreeing with Armando offended you, but I rarely (if ever) agree with him and tend to think he is an idiot.
     
  8. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    The only way I'd sign Peyton is if we draft a QB of the future. Manning's not a long term answer. Three years, tops.
     
  9. Die_Nasty

    Die_Nasty Well-Known Member

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    You wouldn't want 3 years of Manning?
     
  10. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    That's not the point. The point being is that we need to have someone in place to take over after Manning if we sign him.
     
  11. Die_Nasty

    Die_Nasty Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree with you, but I would take 3 years of Manning without drafting someone this year.
     
  12. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Not even saying I do or do not want Manning but an 85 percent Manning, of today going forward, is 85 percent better than what this team has seen since Marino retired....
     
  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, to me it is a solid move, keep in mind we are fans, not GM's

    3 yrs from now will take care of itself.
     
  14. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    IF we still have the plan to draft the Qb of the future I don't have an issue with signing Manning. Really if we drafted a Qb we would just have had Moore starting and the rookie learning from the bench so now it will just be Manning starting with the rookie on the bench. I don't see the reasoning that if Indy didn't address the position we won't, frankly thats a dumb reach to find reasons to be against the signing. IF he's healthy and we are willing to stick to our gameplan of finding the Qb of the future then its not a bad idea at all. IF Flynn is a franchise Qb then we should be signing him and forgetting about a 2-3 year stop gap, to me thats the big question.
     
  15. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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  16. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    I do not want him. Our OL cannot keep young previously healthy QBs upright. And we're going to invest in a guy one hit away from not getting up?
     
  17. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    1) The injury from everything I have read is not something you have to worry about reinjuring, it is something you worry about just not regenerating.

    2) Henne was hurt because he is horrible at presnap reads and can't recognize a blitz to save his life. He seemed to lack the understanding that more rushers than blockers = pressure. Maybe not the reason he was hurt but certainly why he was hit so much.

    3) Not to say our O-Line is great, it isn't, but you'd be surprised how much better a smart QB makes it. It was even better with Moore, who I'd much rather have starting next year than signing Flynn.
     
  18. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    One can look at denial as a point from either side, my friend. You chose to see the glass half empty and the water off others/we chose to see the glass 3/4ths full with the water still running.

    One thing is for sure one of us is about to be proven right in the not so distant future. It makes for a very interesting off season doesn't it.
     
  19. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Look, KB, I understand you believe strongly on this Manning issue, but I still don't think that's grounds for admitting that you agree with Armando.
     
  20. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    The structural integrity is, according to the doctors, not weakened. The only worry is range of motion.
    Not really. He was pretty good against the blitz. His numbers reflected that. If I remember correctly, Daniel Thomas had the blocking assignment for a rusher against SD and completely whiffed on the block. Our entire O-Line was pretty poor at the start of the season. They, like the rest of our team, got better as the year progressed. But, this very well could have to do with that very weak stretch of teams we played.

    Moore didn't play the entire season, but took 36 sacks. That's the same amount as Aaron Rodgers took in 15 games vs. Moore's 13. In 16 games, Brees took 24. Our line game up 47 sacks on the season, but actually gave them up at a higher rate once Moore got in. Henne took 11 sacks in 4 games. In Moore's first 4 games, he took 19. It wasn't until we started playing some of the weaker teams like BUF, KC, and WAS, did the sack numbers dip. Our O-Line was bad all year. Moore was fairly terrible when he got pressured too. A guy like Manning works around this. I remember timing about 10 minutes of Manning throwing and he got the ball out after about 3 seconds tops every single time. It's because Manning doesn't throw to open guys. He throws guys open. Doesn't really need the best line in the world.
     
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  21. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    His passer rating was almost 10 points less from the ages of 32-35 than it was from age 27-31. His yards per attempt also dropped almost a yard per attempt over the same time span.
     
  22. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Actually, I choose to look at medical facts. I don't choose to look at hope or this idea that because Peyton was such a great athlete in his prime that he will defy the laws of aging and recover from this problem more than anyone has ever done so in the past.
     
  23. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    we draft tannehill then fine, outside that, no. I dont want 2nd tier qbs anymore, go get one from the top group in the draft.

    I suspect tho if we go Manning we forego drafting a qb early. so I say no
     
  24. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Uhm au contraire, one is taking general medical information, then applying it to a specific case you have direct knowledge of, that is quite the faulty approach as it attempts to cloak that lack of direct knowledge with "of 300 athletes, in similar situation (though I have no knowledge of his specific situaiton) their outcome was thus".
     
  25. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    signing Manning now is similar to signing Marino in 2000, your getting the name, not necessarily the qb you are visioning in your head
     
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  26. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    So, you are saying that because he is Peyton Manning, that he is going to defy medical logic and past medical results.
     
  27. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Yeah not sure why anybody would want a Hall of Fame QB, who could very well land in Miami's lap for cheap money....

    That tape yesterday showed me all I need to know....that first pass he threw deep seam 20 yards was better looking RIGHT now, than ANY pass I saw a Miami qb throw the whole season last year....and he is only going to get stronger....

    draft someone to groom under Manning for a few years....and call it a day....

    Dolphin fans are so stubborn sometimes, it is literally like "here you go guys, take PEYTON MANNING'' and some of you are like "ehhh screw him he aint good enough"....

    mindblogging (insert Stitches eyeroll icon here)....
     
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  28. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    What I think Padre is saying is that inductive reasoning is never certain.
     
  29. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    the poor house

    right on bro but i will say I am not on the Matt Moore bandwagon Matt Moore is average and i am fed up up with avaerage its time for this franchize to go for it.
     
  30. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    And then we wake up and realize that there is a reason Peyton is available to begin with - he's damaged goods who has been deemed expendable by his former team.
     
  31. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I agree. I'd be happy with Manning and Tannehill, Foles, Osweiler, Wilson, Cousins and maybe even Harnish.
     
  32. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    Grasp at straws much?
     
  33. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    Or he's been deem expendable because the next Peyton Manning is falling into their laps.
    But don't let the facts get in the way...
     
  34. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    IMO, it depends on what you think 85% is going to get you. If you're content with being relevant again and getting to the playoffs then 85% might be enough. But there seems to be one thing about aging gunslingers that scares me- They seem to make more critical mistakes as they get older. It's hard for them to temper their gunslinger mentality, and they make the critical mistake at critical points they may have gotten away with years earlier. About the only ones I can think of who have escaped this are John Elway, who was pretty healthy and had Terrell Davis, and perhaps Kurt Warner. The guys who had to battle both age and nagging injuries, like Marino and Favre, had their moments but were only able to take the team so far.
     
  35. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Another Armando article based on innuendo, opinion and no tangible facts. Armando is just another in a long line of Dolphin "reporters" that pulls stuff out of their *** and will do anything necessary to stir the pot without tangible proof. Just a hunch from the same idiotic piece of drivel that thinks we should cut Brandon Marshall and thinks Ross is the anti-Christ. I guess now would a be a good to time to imply that Ross is also setting up Philbin, Ireland and Sherman to fail.


    Franchise QB's MAKE coaches relevant. Just look at what ONE stinking year of Chad Pennington did to Sparano's early legacy. A somewhat healthy Manning can be a springboard for Sherman to return as a head coach down the line. Anyone that thinks someone like Sherman would be upset to give up part of his playbook for a 12-4 season and deep playoff run is almost as idiotic as Armando.
     
  36. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Nope wrong once again as usual club guy, the fact is they have the number one pick.......

    in that number one pick they can select a guy named Andrew Luck, who is 22 years old, and just a flat out animal in his position as there has been since a guy named Peyton Manning came out......

    Based on last years number, a guy named Cam Newton received a contract for 5 years, worth 22+M fully guaranteed, meaning he is getting 22+M over 5 years.....

    so with the new CBA, okay add say 3M to that number, and call it 25M for a 5 YEAR investment in the #1 pick....Peyton Manning is scheduled to received a roster bonus in 4 days that is 3M MORE than that for ONE YEAR....that would hamstring their cap number (as opposed to spreading it out over 5 years with Luck) on a franchise that is in an obvious rebuilding mode....

    What you call damaged goods and someone being available is what common sense calls sound GM'ing, and a business decision...

    If I were a Colts fans, and they let Luck walk to keep Manning, I would be beside myself...

    And before you come at me with...."ohhhh they have both players, here is an article stating it from "letsmakethingsup.com"".......

    2 reasons....

    1) You would be sinking 50M+ into one position.....which is about tha dumbest thing you can ever do...becauseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

    2) I challenge you to name me ONE #1 overall pick at QB that ever was cool with backing up, especially a guy this hyped...I DONT CARE WHAT THEY SAY RIGHT NOW, number 1 overall picks DONOT back up on any team ever....it is just the way it is.....they do crap that Elway, and Eli did, and force their way out if that is the case...
     
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  37. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would love a franchise elite qb, your saying that because his name is Peyton Manning he is still going to be an elite qb. Noone would turn down Peyton Manning as he once was. But is that what are you getting? and for how long?

    envision this, say we do sign Manning and early on he looks alot like the old Peyton, then late in teh season we are in a playoff hunt and his arm gets tired and he cant zip the ball? No we lose mopmentum just miss the playoffs and now are drafting 19 or 20th or their abouts? Would it be worth it then? We miss playoffs and Peyton is done and we are left w/o a qb and not in position to move up or stay and draft one. Was it worth it then.


    Now ypu will all say yes but what if you get Peyton and we win it all, to that I say yay great, but how sure are you Peyton will be close to that old level? based on a short grainy you tube video? Not under any presssure, taking no hits?

    To not consider the unknown and the degree of risk is foolish, act of desparartion
     
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  38. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    I don't know about that. Whether Luck ends up being behind Manning for a year or two is immaterial to whether they draft him or not. If Manning had been back to 100% by November (when they thought he could have been at one time), then it's likely that the house cleaning that Irsay did would not have happened and the talk about town would be "how will Manning and Luck work together". Now, would there have been more work towards restructuring Manning's contract...yes. It's impossible to tell now what would or could have been, but if Manning is somehow still on the roster come April 26, there is still no way they are not taking Luck. Even Manning understands this. As to whether Luck would have pulled an Elway or Eli is speculation at best. Because of the obvious actions Irsay has taken to clear out the old stuff in the organization, he's planning on life after Manning. I believe it's directly tied into Manning's health. If Manning were healthy, it's very, very likely that StL would be sitting there at #1 instead of Indy and things would be completely different.

    This is entirely about Manning's ability to get and to stay healthy. It's entirely about how much money that Manning is due, knowing that there is a good chance that we'll never see the old Manning again...
     
  39. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    agreed and if Miami does get him I'd expect that they know what he is capable of, and is cleared to do all football activities....

    I am not letting simply the reason that the Colts let him go, as a viable one NOT to sign him, as the anti-Manning group on here claims...

    when in reality, the reason they are letting him go has more to do with whats available than his injury...this is where the saying comes from "teams dont do what the fans want" because if they did, they team would suck....

    Hey believe me, I hope to dear God, that they give him that roster bonus, because that means they are trading that pick....and Miami should at that point offering everything possible to get it...
     
  40. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Take a closer look at that tape...those were practice throws, velocity-wise. They didn't have his previous zip on them...they were probably better than where he was in January, but how much better is he going to get ?? Contrary to popular opinion, 90% of Manning's arm is MMoore...
     

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