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Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by His'nBeatYour'n, Jul 8, 2008.

  1. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html

     
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  2. DonShula84

    DonShula84 Moderator Luxury Box

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    Kind of scary tbh, cant believe this the U.S. military we're talking about here.
     
  3. sking29

    sking29 What it takes to be cool

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    That's not something that I like to hear. I seen it was a major story on cnn so maybe it will get some attention instead of being swept under the rug.
     
  4. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

  5. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    This kind of story saddens me a many levels. The loss of faith is certainly sad and the fact that both his faith and later rejection seem to have been in semi or total isolation from a faith community is also deeply troubling.

    I am also curious about the untold portion of the story. Did old friends feel betrayed and thus "harrassed" him? Did he become a vocal critic of the faith and caught flak from that? Why wasn't a transfer to another outfit where he could start over an option?

    There is too much of this story untold and thus open to specualtion for my taste.
     
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  6. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    I feel like the speculation you are suggesting is that this is really all his fault, for losing the faith.
     
  7. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    what could he have done to make it so his life should be threatened?
     
  8. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Its sad but not surprising. So many times I see the term 'Freedom of Religion' apply only to those who believe in a God or religion.

    I'll never understand why people get so upset at atheists. Does not believing in God threaten ones belief system to the point where they feel violence is necessary ?
     
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  9. Outtawack311

    Outtawack311 New Member

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    I agree with you, he made it sound like this is the soldiers fault which is beyond ridiculous.
     
  10. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    There is a lot more going on here than meets the eye. Having been in the service, if you keep your nose clean and out of other peoples business, and most of all, DO YOUR JOB, most people will leave you alone and let you think exactly what you wish, do what you want, and not have anything to say. To arouse the ire of ones comrades in a unit takes more than a religious discussion, or even a theological debate. It takes attitude changes and performance changes in stressful situations, (from either side, to becoming an avoider of danger to one who seeks danger) to invoke the kind of "reprisal" which seems to be implied by the story. Several scenarios suggest themselves, from the newfound converts (in everything from religion to giving up smoking) zeal to push their newly discovered or revealed thoughts/practices upon those around them (always noxious in a small group setting), to a change in the demeanor of the person involved in his/her perspective of the other members of the small unit/group's intelligence, sanity, or mental stability. It could also be that the said person just became too much of a pain to live with. I have seen all three erupt in small unit organization, civilian and military - usually however, without either a perceived or real threat to life and limb.


    As far as the "freedom of religion" comment, the most damned and vilified religion in the country right now is Christianity. Everything that has been accepted as 'normal' for several centuries is being changed to the point that the Christian point of view is the one which is being challenged and proclaimed as no longer valid or worth considering, and nothing is said that about it that is not ridiculed by every other group trying to attain a superior status, but those other religious or irreligious groups beliefs are being supported in everything from law suits, real estate zoning decisions, to extracurricular club activities in school. Wiccan clubs, and alternative sexual support groups are allowed in school systems, but Bible clubs are not. It would seem that it depends on one's point of view about how "freedom of religion" is currently being handled in this country.
     
  11. DonShula84

    DonShula84 Moderator Luxury Box

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    I dont see how that's possibly true. Americans by a large majority identify themselves as Christians, so you're arguing that they're making a hostile society for themselves? I'd argue that atheist are much more vilified than any religious group. Every politician in America has to at the least pay lip service, and show respect to religion and to the wants/desires of the religious communities. Part of the reason why Christians are perhaps more vilified than before is there increased political activity highlighted by the religious right. It makes many people, even many who identify themselves as Christian very uncomfortable.

    Once religion (read Christians) tied itself to a political party and a political movement it opened the door to increased criticism. But religious people, especially Christians, trying to play the victim in a country that shows religion more respect than it should in the public square is kind of laughable imo.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2008
  12. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I am not sure how it was interpreted but I apologize if my earlier comment made it sound like the soldier was himself at fault for his treatment. That is not now or has it ever been my assumption.

    I was looking for reasons behind behavior not for fault. Why someone does something provides a reason, it does not excuse their behavior. I was trying to figure out why his buddies turned on him. That they did is wrong both religiously as well as militarily. It is unacceptable. I was not contesting the behavior as wrong only trying to discover the why behind it.

    Rabid anythings are vilified in America. We like to draw folks to the middle. The religious right catches flak, rightly so (pun intended) as well as the litigious atheist who wants to sue over every possible mention of God.

    Americans are by and large Deists, that is they believe in the existence of some kind of God. While a large number would say they are nominally Christians, they have no affiliation or public evidence of connection. For that group, Chritianity is like a flag lapel pin, it is for display but doesn't neccesarily mean a committment behind it.
     
  13. JCowScot

    JCowScot So funky the dead dance

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    I would agree with that statement. I would be anyone here $1000 that if they took a poll of those who have stated in other polls that they are at least 'nominally' Christian, 80% of them couldn't correctly tell you what it means to be one. Just b/c they give it lip service, doesn't mean they believe it, know it, live it, or any other kind of 'it'. They just don't want to be singled out...for ANYTHING.

    Humans, by and large, are like sheep:shaun:: you get them by themselves, ask 'em some 'uncomfortable' or 'difficult' questions:sweatdrop:, and they generally look at you quizzically or with a blank stare, say "baa??" and look to join the flock again at the earliest possible moment. Don't believe me?? Go find your nearest college campus and try it out.:up:
     
  14. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin sigpicz.blogspot.com

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    Christians love to pull this persecution syndrome BS.. Probably because it makes them feel important and as if they are about to fulfill prophecy.

    The fact remains.. If you aren't CHRISTIAN, or at least, if you aren't beholden to some mythical sky overlord, you will NEVER be elected to high public office in this country.. You know, the people who drive policy for this free nation of ours..

    You call that persecution? I still can't buy WINE on sunday mornings because of some hocus pocus belief system that the majority of my fellow countrymen still hold on to for purely irrational reasons.. Who is the persecuted one again?
     
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  15. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    from your point of view, Ohio, you are absolutely right. but from the point of view of the average citizen that claim to be Christian and are not active in their community, many believe they are good Christians that just need to go to church a little more. although, as you say, it is like a lapel pin with no commitment behind it, they would disagree.

    everyone has a level of commitment that they believe they meet or need to meet and each one is different. depending on your expectation, you could "fail" anyone you question about their commitment.
     
  16. JCowScot

    JCowScot So funky the dead dance

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    It's not their commitment I'm questioning...it's whether they actually KNOW what it means/entails to be what they are calling themselves. Things that are fundamental to being 'Christian'. I'm not talking about doing good, or going to church 2x a week, I'm talking about what they believe at their core and why they believe it. And I think that Ohio was talking about the same thing. Hope this clears that up a little.
     
  17. sking29

    sking29 What it takes to be cool

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    In response to Christians being criticized in this country I have to fall in line with those that have said that any avid Christian, Atheist, etc. are criticized for their strong maybe even excessive beliefs and not necessarily the religion itself.

    As for the story itself its terrible because anyone is allowed to believe as they wish and I highly doubt that the atheist soldier pushed his religion on his fellow Christian soldiers thus pushing them over the edge to retaliate. I have seen instances being from a southern state in a small town where atheists have been down right treated badly for their beliefs which I find strange as Christians are supposed to reflect the gentle accepting nature of Christ. If the atheist soldier was trying to spread his message isn't that the same as when Christian missionaries go to foreign countries to spread their message (sometimes by force), so it would be hypocritical to say an atheist couldn't do that. Plus no true Christian could do to an atheist what was done to this soldier who after all was serving his country.

    Addressing freedom of religion and how Christianity is handled I must disagree that its being discriminated against. There may not be any Bible after school activities but also I have never heard of a Quran study class or anything so then basically are we discriminating against the Muslim religion as well by not doing that. From my experiences Christianity has a very strong hold on this country more so than any other religion and people that say it doesn't must be wanting the US to be a theocracy.
     
  18. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    I see no reason to include "alternative sexual support groups" in your designation vs "Bible Clubs". Sexual orientation is not a religious issue, but one of genetics. You do not choose your sexual orientation, you do choose your religion.

    I am a devout Christian, who happens to be gay. I choose to be celebate, but it doesn't change who I am inside, I am and will be gay til the day I die.

    Bible Clubs are at their heart religious clubs, and "alternative sexual" clubs are ones that deal as a support club for those who identify themselves as of a certain sexual orientation.

    The two are totally different and have nothing to do with each other.
     
  19. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin sigpicz.blogspot.com

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    This is very interesting. I know this is a sensitive issue, but I must ask. I too, believe as you do, that sexual preference is a genetic, biologically based pre-disposition.. However, how do homosexual Christians rationalize the fact that He made you this way? What does it say of an entity that would create a being at such a disadvantage to follow the rules that he has imposed for them?

    Isn't that imposing upon your Free Will? He doesn't appear to put people at an even playing field when it comes to following His arbitrarily designed rules.

    It is MUCH more difficult for you to avoid the sin of homosexual sexual relations that it is for a straight person. He stuck you behind the 8-ball from the get-go..

    The same can be said of males in general for a whole host of sins.. It is not coincidence that majority of violent and sexual crimes are committed by men. Why would a God hardwire one of his creations to act a certain way, and to feel certain things, then set up a bunch of rules that COUNTER His design? It almost seems sadistic..

    It's like putting a giant steak before a hungry dog, and torturing the poor thing for eternity if it caves into its genetic predisposition to eat meat.
     
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  20. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    do you know what it means to be considered a Christian? i'm sure your defenition is different from the average citizen. i bet Ohio has a different idea as well. the point being who is to decide the line that divides believers? obviously as we speak of this, some who believe they are, by others standards, clearly are not.

    my point stands. these people, misguided or not, truly believe weather we think they are correct or not. their actions may point to a lapel pin badge of honor, but does not lessen their beliefs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2008
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  21. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    We have a couple of threads of topics here which I will try to speak to. Regarding the Deist/Christian distinction I think Dolphan 1 is correct. Many of the deists would not understand themselves as such. And yes JScootCow is also correct in that being a Christian does have imperical definitions depending on with whom you affiliate.

    The dividing point for me is whether or not people see their faith, whatever it may be, as only a personal possession or a committment to a faith and community. All the Abrahamic faiths call you to live for God and others. If you see it as solely personal, then you need to rethink or at least learn more about the tenets of your faith, imo.

    Now regarding the nature vs. nurture argument with regards to homosexuality. I have seen studies both ways. I am not yet convinced that one "becomes" homosexual in only one way. Nurture does have something to do with it and it seems biology can not be rejected either.

    Regarding the question oif "made that way so..." I think I have an annswer though not everyone will like it. After the fall, creation became embroiled in sin, that is rebeliion from God. Not all sin is the result of something someone does or doesn't do. Some sin comes from the reality of evil now residing in the world. Thus not everything, everyone is born with is God's will. Whether that includes "gay genes" I am not sure, though some would call it a "genetic birth defect".

    PMZQ, I commend you for your struggle on what it means to live your life as a witness to chaste behavior. I can't begin to imagine your struggle, but I will hold you and your witness in my prayers.
     
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  22. JCowScot

    JCowScot So funky the dead dance

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    I doubt Ohio's and my definition differs a whole lot (if at all). Now, what it means to be considered a Christian by the rest of society, well, that IS a different story.


    But we are not talking about standards of men. The person that decides the line that divides believers is the same guy who started the religion in the first place- Jesus Christ.

    My point was that a good number of people who consider themselves 'Christian' aren't, and are unaware of the basic necessities of faith and belief associated with the religion.* Just because someone dresses in black, wears pentagrams, and watches Charmed doesn't make one a follower of Wicca. I'm sure Pagan would agree that there are certain basic tenets and beliefs of the religion that one must follow and believe in to be considered Wiccan.


    I think you missed my point- just b/c the say it to be so, doesn't make it so. You can't lump a bunch of people who aren't followers of Christ in w/ Christians, just as you can't lump a bunch of emo/goth kids in w/ Wiccans just b/c they think they are. Whether or not they truly believe is irrelevant. What matter is what is. It was my contention that most are only saying they believe b/c they think that most of the rest of the country believes. But in reality, they aren't really aware of what they are signing their names to, so to speak.






    *Edit: If you need/want a detailed explanation, PM me and I'll give you a basic overview. Didn't feel the previous bit here was pertinent or appropriate to the conversation. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2008
  23. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    Well said RevRick. Today if you say your a Christian, some one is ready to pounce on you for your beliefs. The ones that go out and push, condemn and argue with others is not a true Christian to me. I resent being lumped into that group because I don't do those things. I would imagine I feel the way about my faith that un-believers feel about their beliefs and I try not to lump them all together.
     
  24. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box


    i don't know your background but from what i know of Ohiofinfan's learned career, he will probably have a slightly different view than you will. similar, but not the same.



    i understand your point and i think i addressed that. people believe, weather they fit into any actual form that delineates actual and not actual. you can not dismiss those that are in your not actual, because they do believe. it is only irrelevant to you or some one who agrees with you. there are those that tag along and probably say they believe only to go along. they will sort themselves out.
     
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  25. JCowScot

    JCowScot So funky the dead dance

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    My 'learned career' may not be what Ohiofin's is, but I am probably ahead of where he was at 25.:wink2:

    You may have addressed my point, but I am still confused about it- sorry.:sad: Right now what I'm getting is that as long as one believes they are, than regardless of whether they actually are or not, they automatically become part of 'x' group to an outside observer. Is this correct, or am I simply daft and misunderstanding again??:lol: If this is so, then where/when does empirical truth come in to the equation?? Or, on the other hand, is there no empirical truth, and therefore one's belief/viewpoint makes it so??
     
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  26. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    But, I'm not the point!
     
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  27. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    you are not daft. you simply suffer from knowledge.:lol: for example; i have worked in the IT field for many years. i have dealt with the public on a daily basis. although i am no absolute authority on computers/electronics, i do know a thing or two. most people fall into three categories: 1. they know what they are doing-generally do not look for help from others. 2. they have no idea what they are doing and ask everyone for help. 3. they think they know what they are doing and will tell you so but, even with all that "knowledge" are standing in front of you spewing their knowledge and asking you with out actually asking "what is wrong". that last group is what i'm reffering to. it is a large group. they believe that they believe but clearly they are not up to speed.

    my point was directed at the lapel pin statement that was made. i absolutely agree with everything that was stated by Ohio except that point there. yes, there are those that serve lip service to being this or that. there are those that are devout in their beliefs and then there are those that truly believe but really are not active or affiliated to any organization. they probably make up a large portion of our citizens that consider themselves Christian but do not meet the minimal expectations of the leaders and the devout.

    for what ever reason these people are on the periphery, and though they are not considered Christian by others, they truly believe that they are. they do not wear their beliefs as such a lapel pin and probably would be upset if their belief was questioned.

    look form their point of view for a moment and hopefully you will understand what i'm saying
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2008
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  28. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Being in the Army and not being religious I have to agree for the most part with the Soldier here filing the lawsuit. Me, I don't broadcast my beliefs or lack thereof, but if I did I think it would hurt my career. There is a "non" Christian prayer before any group function (although 99% of the time it is conducted by a Christian Chaplain who slips in words like Savior, etc) and most of the hierarchy of the Army is VERY Christian. So going to the military chapels is a great way to network and move up, not being Christian isn't neccesarily a roadblock, but it does make things a bit tougher.
    I don't think I've ever been a victim of discrimination, and to the Armys credit, they do 'preach' about religious tolerance and they have policies to accomodate just about any religion, but I feel like if I were a Wiccan or another religion that has negative stereotypes placed on it that certain higher ups would look down on me. Just look at the Army's policy on gays, does anyone doubt that is the work of the Christian infrastructure of the Army policy makers?
     
  29. JCowScot

    JCowScot So funky the dead dance

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    Sorry Ohio- didn't mean to make ya feel bad..:wink2: In all seriousness, I was speaking more to the fact that most people in their mid-20's aren't usually deeply thinking of the bigger picture. Questions that tie into the usual ones like 'why am I here?', 'why do I believe what I believe?', etc. They usually get only as far as the 'why is there evil in the world' level and stop, when there are many more important questions beyond that one, that by their very nature entail most of what they are asking in the first place. But not many get that far.
     
  30. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I understand what you are saying, I think our "disagreement" may be more about definitions than anything else. Our only point seems to be whether or not one can be a "lone ranger" Christian and on that we can agree to disagree.

    Wow, thanks for your honesty and your willingness to share. I had no idea things had moved in that direction. At one time a benign tolerance ruled things but apparantly times have changed. I wish you well in your career.

    No blood, no foul, I understood the joke, I wasn't going to let it pass without a little tweak back at ya'. You are correct, those questions are not usually part of the general public's FAQ at that age. My daughter who is 27 and just graduated from seminary has noted that among her secular, college friends.. Best wishes and looking forward to more discussions iwith you in other threads.
     
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  31. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    :lol:i wouldn't even call it a disagreement. more a point of view. i often have to remind myself of that when dealing with customers and have to adjust my approach accordingly. although they need help, i just can't tear their reality apart to help them. they clearly are under qualified to be doing what i am telling them and my hope is they understand the "chasm" by the time i am done talking to them.

    i live in area that has a large number of religious persons and "communities". most of the people i am aquainted with consider themselves Christian but many would would not fit what you generally would consider a true Christian.
     
  32. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    Hmmmm, where to go on this one.

    1st, I don't believe homosexual sex between two gay men to be a sin. However homosexual sex between two straight men, or one gay & straight to be sinful. God made us all they way we are, and as He is perfect, then our sexuality is perfect for who we are.

    Many years of heartache and prayer, frustration and anger followed me when trying to find out myself what the answer to this question was.

    In the Bible, those that are condemned for homosexual behavior, if you read carefully, are those that ID as straight. It is against God's will if you choose to not act out as God made you. Thus, two gay men having a sexual relationship is not sinful.

    This is my interpretation of the Bible. Others read & interpret differently.
     
  33. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    i mean no offense to you or anyone who believes but, to me that is what is at the base of what is wrong with the Bible. you can give it to 10 different people and have them tell you, according to the book, what God means and they will give you 10 different answers. God's word is God's word. interpretation is mans.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2008
  34. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    Would you then view it as a sin for someone who is gay to have straight sex?
     
  35. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    Thanks brother, it is harder than many would care to know, or find out. They would rather condemn me 1st, without knowing me.

    As for the "genetic birth defect"......if anyone believes that I or any other gay person is a GBD they are not someone I would like to know anyhow.
     
  36. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    Yes, I do. You need to be true to yourself, and to God, and not try to fool anyone, because I assure you, you are not fooling God.
     
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