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Baker Mayfield

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by 2socks, Mar 11, 2018.

  1. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    This is absurd. I know you don't like him, but these criticisms are getting out of hand.

    One, there isn't one name we can attach to any of these quotes. So for all we know this is ONE GUY, probably from Univ of Texas, that hates OU with a passion. I will grant you there are some that don't like him, but there are also more that do.

    I am willing to be you tickets to a Dolphins game that Baker Mayfield is off the board that he won't make it to the 12th pick. The comparisons to Manziel are ridiculous. Manziel was a product of a system--and grossly immature...Baker Mayfield is a record setting NCAA QB for passing efficiency whose passion has gotten the best of him at times.

    The incident of fleeing and resisting was a stupid mistake--one that he's not likely to make again. As for the rest of his brashness, I want a QB that is confident. I loved what he did at Kansas. I thought it was ridiculous that he was reprimanded. KU were unsportsmanlike and disrepectful at the coin toss, got lit up by him in the game, and continued to talk smack...Suck it, Kansas. Good for him.

    The UGA interception...its one play. He made MANY great throws in that game. There were four teams left playing for a championship. I can imagine though if Baker Mayfield threw an INT in the AFCCG, and was 23-35, 287 yards, 2 TD, 1 int, and led and offense to put up 48 points...you and others would come on the board and say, "see, I told you he couldn't handle the spotlight".

    I am just curious...are you a fan of Tannehill?
     
  2. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    But, let me introduce you to Drew Brees...You are correct, he didn't go top ten...but maybe he should've. He's on pace to break Peyton Mannings career TD record next year. And regardless, he's a first ballot HOF QB.

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2001

    I am thinking Brees would have been a better pick than most of those players, even in the top ten.
     
  3. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    I agree the Giants and Denver are the key. But the real risk if the Bills. And who they like at QB. If the Giants take Barkley, the Browns take Chubb at 4, Denver takes Nelson...Do the Colts trade back with Buffalo? They could get two first round picks and another second.

    If it falls this way, one of the four QBs would be available to us... now it just depends on who the teams ahead of us picking QBs prefer. I haven't heard a consensus. I am going to just guess that Darnold is 1 and Rosen is 2. Those are the safest bets.

    1. Browns -- Darnold
    2. Giants -- ?
    3. Jets -- Rosen
    4. Browns -- Barkley
    5. Denver -- ?
    6. Indy -- Chubb (or trade back with Buffalo)
    7 - 10. Bucs, Bears, 49ers, and Raiders--Will not take a QB. The only question is if there is a player they fall in love with or are they willing to trade back?

    Assuming the Bills move up and take Josh Allen, and if the Giants and Broncos don't take a QB, then its just a matter of if the Cardinals at 15 or the Ravens at 16 are willing to trade up...

    So there is certainly a pathway for Mayfield being available at #11. It is contingent on a lot of things happening, but none of them are too crazy.
     
  4. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    And they had the most personnel present at BM's proday.
     
  5. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    I agree that some team is going to draft him in the first part of the first round. Almost everyone of those QBs listed on Boomer's list were taken first half of first round.
     
  6. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    Holy Sanctimony, Bat Man...LOL. Running from the cops as a minor and grabbing your crotch is now "apocryphal?"

    Its all good, brother. We just disagree on what constitutes unacceptable behavior.
     
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  7. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Drew Brees came from a pro style offense not a college spread

    There’s less projection there in terms of pure pocket progression development and from under center play
     
  8. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    Yes, I’ve always admired what he brings to the table: toughness, professionalism, intelligence, and he spins a great deep ball.

    Why does that matter?
     
  9. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    Yes, agree to disagree.

    That bit was in relation to the hypothetical scenario the other guy brought up in manufacturing wins, but suggesting no one would care what kind of person Mayfield was in delivering that.
     
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  10. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    Why are you intentionally trying to goad me? That says much more about you than me, and unnecessary at this juncture.

    I’m not interested in water under the bridge, while you commandeer a wherry.
     
  11. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Slightly left of center
    Jamar Fletcher :angry:
    Reggie Wayne, Todd Heap and Drew Brees on the board and we pick Jamar F.N. Fletcher. :headwall:
     
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  12. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    WTF is a wherry?
    And I wasn't trying to goad you. Just encouraging you to keep the communication lines open. Gotten pretty heated with posters here myself on occasion so I get it. But blocking people doesn't accomplish anything. That and you seem a little thin skinned about it, didn't see the foul myself.
    Sorry if I offended you, wasn't my intention.
     
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  13. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    That's a reasonable position if Mayfield did anything close to something that would warrant your reaction.
     
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  14. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    No, you didn’t offend me at all brother. I’m just saying that I see no point in rehashing what’s already been spilled.

    If I don’t feel there’s any value to be gained from those mentioned, then leaving that crossroad in the rearview mirror and moving on, is in the best interest for everyone involved.

    I hail from New York and come from an Italian/Irish family, and my skin is inherently baked thick from years of experience - lol.

    Cheers!
     
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  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    It's a little passenger boat; basically a small ferry. I always think it's cute when people use uncommon words to make themselves look smart, but like you said...it basically shows that they don't know how to communicate.

    That makes him a beleaguer seeking cynosure through an ephemeral demense. See how smart I think I am? And see how stupid I feel that nobody understands what I just said?

    Beleaguer- to attack over and over until your opponent submits

    Cynosure- trying to be a focal point of admiration

    Emphemeral- grief or short lived

    Demense- dominance or controlling a territory
     
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  16. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    How was my “reaction,” in your estimation?

    I didn’t offer up a hypothetical situation that suggested people should turn a blind eye to a player’s misbehavior, and just be happy with some arbitrary wins as a result.
     
  17. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    I used a word that he never heard of, but I’m doing all of that as some cute agenda or campaign, all with the design in trying to make myself look like a smarty pants? Uh, no.

    Your assumptions have as much merit as your smeared muckraking.
     
  18. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    What's the percentage of top 10 QB's are eventually worthy of being top 10? You're putting the cart before the horse here. The NFL has a few rules, inclusive of short QB's are bad investments and spread QB's don't translate to the NFL. Of course you've never seen it because the NFL doesn't value those things. That's not to say one wouldn't do well. This is just fallacious logic.

    Another issue I have with your point is that we have seen that height is not really a factor in NFL ability. There isn't any evidence that shorter QB's have a harder time in the NFL outside of what coaches put them through for being short. Good short QB's are good in the NFL and bad tall QB's are bad in the NFL. Aaron Rodgers measured a whopping one inch taller than Mayfield at the combine by the way, while Mayfield is taller than Brees and Wilson.

    Thirdly, just like the NFL, you're being too slow to adjust your thinking to reality. Spread concepts are becoming more and more commonplace. This is the same conversation people had about 'running QB's' as recently as when Russell Wilson was coming into the league. The Eagles won the Super Bowl as a creative offense that employs a lot of spread concepts and ran plays out of the shotgun 72% of the time.

    Simply put, sure the NFL doesn't draft guys with those traits high, but that's because the NFL doesn't do that. The adages don't have empirical backing. The Patriots, in my opinion, aren't geniuses. They're just not as stubborn as other NFL teams and are always on the cutting edge conceptually. Five WR and double TE sets were re-invented by the team. Then when everyone went nickel and dime, they trotted out Blount and for that one game, Jones Gray, to beat up the league. The idea that it can't work is almost solely based on the fact that no one wants to try it. We've seen short QB's do very well (Brees, Wilson) and okay (Taylor, Flutie) in the NFL. We've seen spread QB's do well in the NFL (DeShaun Watson, Mariota, Winston, Goff). There's literally nothing to prove that a short spread QB can't work other than risk aversion and stubbornness.
     
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  19. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Neither did I. Your reaction to college immaturity was overblown. I have clarified my point and literally only you still believe I was saying we should look the other way when people are terrible. I've said multiple times that I don't think Mayfield did anything particularly noteworthy for someone his age. You can't seem to grasp that I'm not trying to excuse immorality, but that I'm actually saying what he did wasn't as bad as you and the puritanical (except when Greg Hardy gets sacks and Ray Rice gains yards) NFL are making it out to be.

    I don't know why, btw, you thought his comment was about you specifically:

    This was in reference to NFL teams pretending to be afraid of Mayfield's character, while simultaneously employing rapists, racists, wife beaters, etc. I didn't say YOU wouldn't care. I said no one in reference to NFL teams, per the comment I was replying to. Time and again the NFL has shown that winning is all they care about. If Kaepernick had been winning prior to his protests, he'd still be in the league. If NFL teams were guaranteed Mayfield would win 12 games per season, they'd sound a lot more like me with respect to his immaturity.
     
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  20. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    There's a reason why the Browns are still retaining Josh Gordon's rights even though he can't pass drug tests. On the off-chance he sobers up, he's damn good.
     
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  21. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    As you trot headlong into a thread dedicated toward Baker Mayfield. Someone is certainly projecting something, but I’ll leave that for you to determine in the grand scheme.

    Do you have any insight on Mayfield?
     
  22. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    First, you completely misunderstood and totally missed Hoops' point for the purpose of an irrelevant rant.

    Secondly, you don't need to explain anything about football to him. Though, it was great for a chuckle. :chuckle:
     
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  23. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    It’s not overblown, and it is quite noteworthy when a high profile college athlete is not just simply drunk, but belligerent and tries to flee from the police. There’s a clear difference.

    That’s where we disagree, and will never see eye to eye. If Mayfield has another lapse in judgment down the road, it can have disastrous results on the team’s future, public relations, and community.

    Not to mention needing another QB.

    Sorry, but I don’t believe that all NFL teams would all line up for Mayfield; sacrificing the principles that they founded and would hope to build upon, all in the name of more hollow victories.

    In your hypothetical, if Baker Mayfield commits another crime then it would leave those same teams in a terrible bind, and potentially setting that franchise backward for a number of years. Then having to answer a lot of questions as to why they gambled on his nefarious history to begin with, from the media, fans, and ownership.

    I understand that some NFL teams have miscreants on their teams, but that doesn’t mean that the Miami Dolphins organization should or would follow that. You’re essentially saying that it’s alright for other teams, so we should too.
     
  24. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    Crazy that we picked Fletcher.
     
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  25. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    Agree, it was a bad one and head scratching. Especially, since we still had Sam Madison and Patrick Surtain. I get the nickel concept with Fletch, but by selecting him we also passed on Drew Brees and Reggie Wayne.

    Nightmare.
     
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  26. Phin McCool

    Phin McCool Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn't fleeing but 'scrambling'.

    That kid lives and breathes football and he was just imagining the pocket had collapsed and the feds were linebackers and D linemen out to grind his *** into the turf. Fair play to him, he's a winner and he probably picked up a first down as well...
     
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  27. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    LOL, well played sir.
     
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  28. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    For starters at no point did I say it can’t work. So let’s establish that first.

    You are welcome to go about it whatever way you want. I will continue to roll with history until something changes. Ie a spread concept qb under 6 foot 2 and running 4.85 goes top 10.

    And while I agree that spread concepts are becoming more of a thing in the nfl and less of a qb deterrent in terms of translating to the pro game the bottom line for me is pre to post snap reads and pocket progression are the gold standard for qb play.

    There’s no doubt you could draft baker mayfield and work a heavy rpo based offense out the gate and him make plays. But what happens if that doesn’t work? What happens if the run game and the scoreboard says you must go to plan b? Are you gonna rely on the zone read with a 4.85 qb that lacks the speed to outflank the opposition? Are you gonna bank on nfl concepts that he hasn’t been asked to show on college tape like under center 3 5 and 7 step drops?

    That’s called projection and it’s not what you drafted the guy grade wise in the first place for. It’s called risk also. Guys like allen, rosen, and darnold all have experience with pro style concepts and drops etc.

    in terms of development with pro concepts they show more and are further ahead. That doesn’t mean baker can’t or wont hell Mitch trubisky came from a college spread got drafted by Chicago and put in a pro style o and he took to it conceptually like a fish to water. But that’s rare stuff. And he also checked the 6 foot 2 box.

    The poster earlier in this thread made for what I saw the correct assessment in
    that in the national semi second half baker looked late in the game like the pressure of the moment was getting to him. Even the overthrow int where he missed mark Andrews who had the db stacked it had a pressing look to it on the throw. Other evidence was the inability to gain the corner vs sec level speed as a ball carrier which backs up that 4.85 timed speed and what I found even more odd was how the play caller for oklahoma basically took the game and ball out of bakers hands late.

    It had a bit of a system qb look to it same for the Ohio state game that everyone seems to be so In love with the player on. Yes indeed that Ohio state d line is loaded and yes baker made plays but that tape even looks systemic in the qb ask and execution. Now the counter here is how can I knock a kid for only doing what the offense ask and doing it well and I can’t but those ask aren’t pro concept in nature either.

    And let’s also be honest defense is optional in that conference. Hell they had max 2 top 50 worthy grade players in the whole conference in the 2017 draft class and one was bakers rb Joe Mixon.

    Russ Wilson ran 4.55 and is hiccup quick he’s a far exception in terms of being able to turn his back to the rush and not get decleated for it. He’s not getting hemmed in senior bowl week by fast dts on the edge either. What baker has a lot like Russell is when he gets flushed he does a very good job of maintaining his eye level. Of course Russell Wilson does it .3 tenths faster and unless I’m mistaken he also came from a pro concept offense at Wisconsin and N.C. state. In the nfl they’ve worked a ton of zone read and 4 vertical concepts against single high looks due to the legit threat of the qbs legs and the distance to the sticks/scoreboard with Wilson banking on the defense who for 5 years there gave up less than 7 ppg and were all timer level sustained play over an extended period of time which also allowed Seattle to not ever have to break from plan a as a playcaller on offense. What happened when the d showed cracks and attrition/age this year? Seattle went home playoffs less.

    Anyways I got on a bit of a rant there.

    Drew Brees came from a pro style offense had experience in 3 5 and 7 step concepts in college. Pocket play was always in the back pocket with him. Timed speed irrelevant.

    I think I’ve explained separate from the measurables in a vacuum or in addition to why I think baker sees pick 11. History, offense, speed, size, lack of pro concepts.

    At the same time it is a qb driven league but it’s always been and it hasn’t happened yet. Call it old school call it dinosaur call it whatever you want does the “it” factor counter or overcome here?

    I guess we will see come end of April
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  29. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Which is ultimately my point. History has failed the NFL time and time again. Outside of certain locks like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck, the track record for drafting is poor. NFL teams are bad at identifying talent, especially at the QB position. My overarching point here has been that the NFL's 'history' isn't based on anything empirical. The draft is a crap shoot and a big part of that is likely that NFL teams keep sticking to 'history' even as it continually fails them. It's been written about before and will continue to be written about:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-team-can-beat-the-draft/

    These are risks inherent of every QB. College offense isn't necessarily correlated with pro success. Mainly because NFL talent scouts are so risk-averse that there isn't a large enough sample size yet to say whether spread QB's are just flat out worse at these things when transitioning to the NFL. Pro-style QB's come out every year who end up not being able to replicate that at the NFL level. People like to think the NFL Draft is solved but it's absolutely not, especially at QB.

    Players like Mark Sanchez, Kyle Boller, and Jimmy Clausen never move the needle on how people evaluate their own ideas on what should make a QB. As of now, every QB is inherently risky. The numbers just don't show a particular increase in risk for spread QB's. They have likely shown to be less risky based on NFL value added because of how low they tend to get picked.

    I'm not arguing this point and I never have. What I've been arguing is how little empirical evidence there is to show that this matters. I've been arguing that pro-style college QB's flame out at such a high rate that there's no greater risk associated with spread QB's. When a spread QB fails, people point to that as a reason you shouldn't draft one, but DeShaun Watson, Jared Goff, Cam Newton, and Marcus Mariota never move the needle in the other direction. This is where you tell me that they're not short, and where I interject that height is not shown to make a good QB worse in the NFL. The issues associated with height, like accuracy and batted passes, aren't problematic in good short QB's.

    The first part of this I just don't get. Pro-style QB's don't get rattled by pressure? Mayfield threw one INT after putting up 31 in the first half and throwing the game tying TD in the fourth. Jameis Winston got demolished by Oregon in the semis his last season after winning an NC. I'm not drafting Mayfield to run and I'm certainly not knocking him for his play-caller's decision. The Seahawks threw the ball.

    My sole comparison with Mayfield and Wilson has been physical, mainly height. I'm going to keep the goal posts rooted here and not discuss their offensive schemes. If you want to talk speed, he ran Drew Brees fast. He's taller than Wilson by a significant margin and about as fast as Brees while being taller than him. Mayfield's biggest physical impediments are his relatively small hands honestly.

    Wilson wasn't any less effective last season. The same can be said of Drew Brees once Sean Payton's D got old and ineffective. The Saints didn't make the playoffs and had losing records. The Seahawks still won 9 games.

    We will see, but the current trend of the NFL with teams like the Eagles, Chiefs, Rams, and Patriots (to some degree), among others, is showing that NFL teams were being ridiculous by locking out spread QB's over ideals. The NFL game is changing and the reason spread QB's didn't work is because NFL teams never really invested in or accommodated them. My position is that the data doesn't show Mayfield to be any more inherently risky than other pro-style QB's if the NFL team is willing to work with him. Sure, if you let him run a Brad Childress offense, he's unlikely to work out. That doesn't mean his game can't translate to the NFL.
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think we are seeing an increase in spread concepts and will continue to see it increase, because teams are starting to figure out that salary cap wise, it makes sense to have a QB on his rookie deal. Because of that, you need to have a QB come in a succeed right away to get the max return on their rookie contract.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  31. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I'm refusing to accept that you're naive enough to believe that a league that employed Greg Hardy, Riley Cooper, Richie Incognito (still does), Josh Brown (after having read his own words on abusing his partner and his arrest), Adrian Peterson, and only gave Ray Rice a two game suspension (at first), wouldn't employ Mayfield if he guaranteed 12 wins at the most important position. They employ a rapist at QB in Pittsburgh and a thief in TB right now. I mean, how many more terrible people do I have to bring up for you to accept that the NFL is amoral and only cares about the bottom line. The NFL's sole principle is make money. Deifying drug addicted owners like Irsay, probable racists like McNair, and all-around nasty ones like Jerry Jones is crazy. Let's not talk about the morally bankrupt ones like Spanos, Davis, and Kroenke who will fleece one city, leave, then fleece another one of public funds and sweetheart deals.
     
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  32. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Thanks for the contribution. Your opinion is duly noted.
     
  33. Base of Gase

    Base of Gase Active Member

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    You stated: “If Mayfield could guarantee 12 wins every season, no one would even care who he was as a person.”

    You made up a hypothetical, and then stuffed the entirety of the NFL, its players, and ownership into a vacuum.

    Then you leveled an indictment across the NFL, some players that had trouble, and ownership issues - then, drawing assumptions and concrete conclusions based solely upon your hypothetical around a player that’s not in the NFL yet. That’s a negligent premise.

    Also, you implied that it didn’t matter what kind of person Baker Mayfield is, beyond the scope of his past transgressions. So long as he produces the hypothetical win threshold, then all is well in candyland. The world and the NFL doesn’t work like that.

    Since you’re so fond of the hypothetical and shifting the criterion toward a macro level, beyond the scope of what he’s already done, what happens if he has a relapse in judgment and is thrown in jail before a playoff game? What about grabbing his crotch at loudmouth fans, which then leads to a riot, there will be no repercussion so long as 12 wins is reached, correct? P’shaw.

    If Baker Mayfield manufactures your imaginary 12 wins, it’s most certainly going to matter as to what kind of person he is - both in the past and present, and with regard to the future.

    By lobbing in the NFL, players, and some ownership as a scapegoat, you’re continually deflecting the root of the problem: Baker Mayfield’s checkered history. It’s irresponsible to apply liberal brush strokes, while sacrificing the sanctity of the principles you hope to ultimately strive for going forward.

    The NFL, team ownership, and current players that have had legal issues, didn’t force Baker Mayfield to make bad decisions or have anything to do with his questionable maturity and behavior.


    As many people as you like, of course that is your prerogative. It just drifts further away and is used as a crutch, to cover for Mayfield’s past issues. Different people and circumstances that have no correlation to Baker Mayfield is a logical fallacy by design.

    Everyone is an individual, and the crimes they may or may not have committed, have no bearing on the boneheaded decisions that Baker Mayfield has already made in his past.

    The NFL, in and of itself, is not the entity currently under the microscope in the upcoming draft, and have its entire livelihood at stake because of a past with immature decisions. That’s entirely a part and parcel of the life, of one Baker Mayfield. For better or worse.

    Let me reiterate, you’re effectively saying that since there’s fire elsewhere, then people should be complacent and accepting in a scorched foundation, instead of putting it out or calling for help. Thanks, but no thanks.
     
  34. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    According to Base... Baker scorched the earth by getting drunk.

    What a dolt. Lol
     
  35. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think there’s any doubt that we are seeing and will see more spread concepts in the nfl.

    But what 3 out of the 4 I guess it was qbs that Carib mentioned have that came from that system (and I’m not so sure Goff did frankly as the other but even if he did he was asked to make nfl caliber throws in college and play primarily from the pocket with rhythm passing) is the legit threat of their legs.

    Marcus mariota can outflank you he has the speed to kill you, deshaun Watson another serious threat with his legs who Bill O’Brien did a complete about face with his offense ask of the qb concept wise mind you when he inserted him as the starter to fit his skill set and limit his progression read ask to more simplified primary’s and predetermined even throws. Half field reads basic primary concepts etc.

    Cam newton hell his game completely revolves around the threat of his legs. It drives everything they do in Carolina concept wise.

    So let me ask you something. What happens when these guys who rely so much on their legs get injured in their legs and over time can no longer win with them? They are gonna have to rely on pocket progression and development.

    Will they be able to? Marcus mariota is already being talked about as a disappointment with the pocket progression side of things.

    If deshaun Watson was asked to make full field reads and go thru progressions right now he’d come up goose eggs.

    Cam newton to this day due to size is used as a lead back in the run game. They run power lead with him as the ball carrier.

    What’s the shelf life on that?

    The shelf life lives in pocket progression and pre snap read. You could lose your legs tomorrow in that offense and be fine provided you can make proper reads and know where to go with the football.

    I know that Philly just won a bowl without a threat of the qbs legs running pretty much all rpos but that stuff only works if you can maintain the sticks or scoreboard. Which means you need either a top shelf run game threat or a top shelf defense. Philly had the run game threat and o line play and more than that it had top shelf play calling and schematic looks.

    I don’t hate baker I think the “it” factor is legit but I’d like him more if he also had the the threat of his legs outflanking the opposition. And 4.85 doesn’t do it.

    I have him 4th in my top 5 QBs my top 3 all come from pro style offenses I can get behind and not have to make projections with. I don’t even dislike the option of him at 11 cause I need a plan b and upside in the building in case tanny goes down again.

    And I know gase could shift the offense into more rpo heavy concepts that fit bakers strengths.

    But he doesn’t have anywhere near the amount of tools in his shed conceptually that Ryan does.
     
    mbsinmisc likes this.
  36. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    Two tools in his shed, IMO, far better than Tannehill...accuracy and pocket awareness. He throws guys open. That's a huge "tool" that you can't even quantify.

    And while hes about a big a threat to take off running as Tom Brady, he moves around the pocket well. You don't need to be fast to be elusive.
     
  37. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I will disagree on accuracy. I will wait for my eyes to see it in the nfl before I award him the pocket presence edge. I do think he climbs the pocket at the end of his drop better. Tanny would be better with that by now too if he didn’t have all those years of muscle memory of his guards in his lead leg to get over.

    The only guy I’ve seen come in the league God’s gift to pocket presence was Andrew Luck.

    I don’t even think baker has the best pocket presence in his draft class. I think that belongs to josh rosen. In terms of working a muddy pocket.

    When asked to reset his feet from the pocket I think mayfield gets errant

    Best quality he has for me outside of the “it” factor is his eye level doesn’t drop when flushed.

    You can’t teach that.
     
  38. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting take...

    You disagree on accuracy?

    Trying to compare apples/apples in college:

    Tannehill had 65% Sr year and 61% Jr year. His passing efficiency was 137 as Jr, 133 as Sr. Played 26 games.

    Mayfield had 71% both years. Efficiency as JR 196.4, Sr 198.9...hes played an astounding 48 games...by far the most experienced QB in the class.

    Pocket presence...you give that to Rosen? I am not sure how that would manifest itself--maybe TDS or INTs?
    In two years Rosens TD:INT ratio was 2:1 and 2.5 : 1
    Mayfield was 5:1 and 7:1.

    The only knock I can find on Mayfield is his height. His film is off the charts. His game is off the charts.
    Against OSU, a pretty decent defense he was 27/35, 3 TDs.
    Against UGA, he was 23/35, 287, 2 TDs, 1 int.

    Arm strength...in the Baylor game (I think it was Baylor) he overthrew his WR who was 70 yards downfield.

    Errant resetting his feet...Look at this video. He gets out of the pocket, resets his feet. Finds a WR, hits him IN STRIDE 60 yards down the field. Nothing errant about it.

    If he was 6'3, he would be BY FAR the first QB on every board. Because he's not, the Fins have an outside chance at him.

     
  39. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    True.

    What do you think of the N.C. state kid? Frames a little thin kinda young josh rosen like in that regard but can grow into it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  40. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    College statistics have no bearing for me when it comes to evaluating qbs.

    If they did Heisman Trophy winners would pump out all pros.

    They don’t account for offense ask or what’s driving them etc.

    I’m sure you can find high completion percentages in qbs who can live almost all off pa in the pros too. Inflated numbers cause of the luxury they enjoy.

    That doesn’t mean in the grand scheme of things they have great ball placement or accuracy.

    And is baker asked to throw 18 yard opposite hash come backs? Lots of other things to account for than just numbers in a vacuum.

    I’m taking josh rosen as the best placement and accuracy qb in the class. West coast rac style relies on ball placement for maximum gain and efficiency.

    But I’m not saying in any way bakers an inaccurate passer either. Hell I think he spun the ball damn well at the combine.

    Arm strength or ability to spin an nfl size football was never an issue for me.

    He can spin it.

    I like his feet and his pivot too. The reset from the pocket I think needs work when moved off the spot but still in the pocket but I see that as correctable in the pros. He doesn’t throw off an uneven platform at the clip josh rosen does I can tell ya that.

    I’d also say that rpo based offense allows the qb to have many primary looks for easy completions cause if the qb doesn’t like it early post snap he hands it off inside and avoids the tight window throw in the first place. Or at least he has the option to choose. Be nice or a bonus if said qb also had the speed to keep it and turn the corner outflanking the opposition but I’ve already talked about that. 4.5 and 4.85 is a big difference in terms of threat to outflank you
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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