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Barry Jackson: Perception not always reality with Reggie Bush

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Jul 29, 2011.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Barry Jackson offering up some straight shooting. He's got some other stuff at the end about the Dolphins contacting Matt Moore, Manny Lawson and Pat McQuistan. Also Davone Bess admitting that the Dolphins are at a disadvantage compared with the rest of the league because they're changing systems.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/07/28/2335957/hoge-bush-is-a-matchup-guy-not.html

    There's also this one at ESPN...

    http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post/_/id/22849/stats-say-saints-better-without-bush

    Covers a lot of the reasons why I think Bush is one of the most overrated players of the last 5 years.
     
  2. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Well, no doubt that Reggie Bush hasn't lived up to his draft status. But if he can be used the same way he was used in New Orleans, than good for us.
     
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  3. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    But...but...but stats are worthless.

    /sarcasm

    These stats worry me.

    Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I could care less about Draft status. Has he lived up to $5 million per year plus Jon Amaya and a draft pick status? Is he currently declining from what little he was before, because of a bad knee? Are the Dolphins now paying the most money in the league to their 3rd down back, even though I could probably think of at least 3 or 4 of them that are better than him?
     
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  5. Dr. Mookie

    Dr. Mookie New Member

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    Bush is the best college player I ever saw... He is great in open space... Problem is, open space is hard to come by in the NFL
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And that's a GOOD thing? The Saints just decided that they don't want Reggie Bush anymore, they want Darren Sproles instead. It's one thing if you pick up another team's castoff because they're restructuring the unit, and they don't have a need for this kind of player anymore. It's quite another when the Saints, who have lived with Reggie Bush for the last 5 years and know more about his knee than anyone (probably including Reggie himself), are looking at the possibility of Reggie Bush for about $5 million per year or Darren Sproles (who is 2 years older and doesn't know the offense) for about $4 million per year, and saying...I'll take Sproles.

    The Dolphins are hoping they made a mistake. I wouldn't bet on it.
     
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  7. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    I'm okay with Bush, but we could have gotten Sproles for 3.5 and he returns kicks and he can break a few tackles.
     
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  8. Dr. Mookie

    Dr. Mookie New Member

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    I'm totally cool with Bush, but this is what I expect of him:
    1. He is not a feature back...
    2. Catches 5-6 passes a game...
    3. Carries 5-10 times a game...
    4. Returns punts and kicks...

    In other words it's time to give Ronnie a call
     
  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Emphasis on the part in bold. They felt the need to move on from Reggie Bush and have another guy fill his role. Miami felt the need to take their leavings.
     
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  10. daphins

    daphins A-Style

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    I get the flack Bush is getting, I just don't agree with the downtalking about his role on the field. The guy is an X-Factor, not a #1 RB...nobody is arguing that he's going to come in, drop his shoulder and give us 4 yards and a cloud of dust. He's there to create mismatches and keep the Defense honest.

    Like Ginn, if you KNOW what he is, and USE him as such, he can make very positive contributions to this football team. But if you try to fit him into a role that he doesn't fit, he'll be an absolute bust. You can argue whether we NEED Reggie Bush, but I don't really see how people can argue his big play ability. The guy has the ability to straight up win you games.....how many guys can we say that of on our team right now? We need that spark, the X-Factor, the guy who can hit a home run and give us a nudge every now and then. I for one am happy at the Bush signing.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Scratch the returning kicks part. He's never done it. I think they'd have Edmond Gates doing that anyway.

    1. He's not a featured back...You're damn right. He averages 3.4 yards per carry on grass and 3.2 yards per carry on carries 11-20 of a game. Swell.
    2. Catches 5-6 passes a game...And he's averaged 6.0 yards per attempt on those targets the last three years, with Drew Brees throwing the ball
    3. Carries 5-10 times a game...And averages what? Maybe 3.7 yards per carry? Maybe 4.0 if the line gels?
    4. Returns punts...at about 6.3 yards per punt return. Swell. I'd rather have Bess do it.
     
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  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If all this is true, how come the Saints offense became MORE effective in the 20 games that Reggie missed over his 5 year career? They scored 4 more points per game, had a higher completion percentage, and had like 20 more total yards per game...in the 20 games Bush didn't play.

    This is the thing I try and press onto people. Yes, a defense reacts to Bush being in the game. But that doesn't mean in a GOOD way. A defense facing Reggie knows he's not going to burn them as a runner. They put extra coverage and blitz players in the game because they sense an OPPORTUNITY to defend the pass better, because they know it's going to be a pass and if it's not a pass then the run play is probably not going to be very effective. That's not GOOD for the Saints' offense. When Bush was out of the game, defenses faced the Saints more honestly, and that helped the Saints offense be more effective.
     
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  13. SRM

    SRM New Member

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    One thing I'm worried about is if we can even use him the way they did in NO when they had success with him. I'm talking about the plays where Brees does very quick throws on the move/great play fakes/pump fakes.. no way Henne can pull all that off without his robot microchip exploding.
     
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  14. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    Doesn't look good that Sproles joined an already loaded backfield in New Orleans for less money than we're paying Bush. He's the better, more durable player IMO.

    But who's to say Sproles would have come here anyway? Much less at that price?

    Not a bad move, but I think we possibly could have done better.
     
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  15. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    The more I think about it, the more the bush signing has a slight tinge of 'give Ross some marketable flashy names' for that SoBe glamor Ross keeps pimping. Boy, is he in for a disappointment with the Browns' ex-OC and a gimpy Bush providing the new fuel for the fireworks.
     
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, then there is the somewhat radical notion that Bush plays more Slot in Miami then he did in NOLA, if we want to maximize the matchup problems he causes that is the way to do it imho.

    Less wear and tear on him as well.
     
  17. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    You can minimize this effect by giving Bush the majority of his snaps in second and very long (2nd and over ten yards) and third and long (3rd and 7 or more). Basically, only use him when they are expecting pass anyways.
     
  18. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box


    Or they have some ******ed notion that he will revive the Wildcat as its triggerman.
     
  19. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    It means nothing that NO has a ****load of talent on offense compared to us?

    I'm not saying those stats mean nothing, bc some of them are def legit. But don't you think point totals and **** like that mean a little less when you consider just how many play-makers they have in NO?

    Brees is a step away from throwing TDs to the waterboy.
     
  20. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Nah, start him out in the backfield, motion him to the slot, see what is cooking with the coverage and go from there.

    As for the WC..jet sweep role.
     
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  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    And let me point out that I watched the same thing happen with Eric Metcalf, he started out as a returner/running back and sort of morphed into a slot Wr with some success.
     
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  22. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    You mean to tell me that Patrick Cobbs wasn't getting it done?
     
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  23. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'd thank that post 10x if I could, spot on, Bush means no more Cobbs!

    Don't get me wrong, Cobbs seems like a good dude, just as a player...:no:
     
  24. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Fixed.
     
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  25. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Dolphins need to pull something out of their hat on Bush to make him worthwhile. It really comes down to coaching.

    Reggie Bush has talent. He's never going to be a dominant, all-around rusher, but he's got great physical skill. He needs to be more decisive, he needs to run harder, and he needs to run better routes as a receiver. You can teach someone to be more decisive. It's a fundamental point of running effectively in zone schemes, and you can drill it into someone. Can the Dolphins coaching staff? It's hard to say. They couldn't do it with Ronnie Brown, but I don't think anyone has been able to do it with Ronnie Brown besides Cam Cameron, and that took putting him on Kick Returns and breaking him completely out of his focus. There has been times where Bush HAS run harder, with authority, but it seems pretty fleeting.

    He's also got to be a better route runner. He's got fine hands and physical ability, but he simply doesn't run routes well enough to be a Marshall Faulk style receiving back, but he doesn't run routes like a receiver. He runs them like a pretty mediocre runningback.

    They've also got to use him properly. There's been quite a bit of argument that the Saints didn't. There's no night or day switch that's going to flip, and the Dolphins aren't going to turn him completely around with running Jet Sweeps and using him as a Joshua Cribbs style slot back, but there's some stuff the Saints have drawn criticism from. For example, he was an awful I-Formation rusher early in his career. Yet, as late as 2008, he's got almost half his carries in the I-formation, in which he had 42(of 106) rushes for a whopping 85 yards and 2.0 YPC. That's not effective management.

    I'm sure someone will chime in about how incompetent our coaching staff is because they have played conservatively or didn't sign whatever free agent they wanted, but the Dolphins HAVE beat the band on players. They've gotten excellent, career bests out of players from unexpected places. They got Chad Pennington's career year out of him when he was basically written off. Although singular, they got a Pro Bowl quality season out of Jake Grove when everyone was convinced he was trash. They turned Randy Starks from solid starter to elite after pulling him out of Jeff Fisher, who has developed absolutely loads of high quality pass rushing DTs and "big" DEs. They, not Dick LeBeau or Bill Cowher got Joey Porter his highest sack total.
     
  26. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Metcalf was amazing. I'd be thrilled to see Bush have a long productive career with us a la Larry Centers, though they are not exactly the same type either, they could be used in some similar ways.
     
  27. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    We should just handcuff him to Devone Bess for the offseason.
     
  28. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Very well put.

    Bush is a useful weapon when used properly, it's up to Daboll to figure out what "properly" means.
     
  29. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box


    "They" were different OC's and DCs in year one. Now we have Daboll. I don;t expect them to be super-creative at using Bush, or motivate him better than a Superbowl-level coaching staff did. We also have Karl Dorrell at QB coach... that's the quality level of our staff. Honestly, the staff we've put together doesn't get me excited. Does it excite you?
     
  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Just the unknowns bother me about this staff Bpk, I think they can get it done, but I do not "know" they can get it done.

    I'd hoped FA would reduce doubts and instead we are watching the rest of the AFCE loading up while we stay mostly pat.

    Reggie Bush is great, but Jason Trusnik is not really a difference maker.
     
  31. xer0

    xer0 xD

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    Did they really want to move on from Reggie?

    It doesn't sound exactly like they were pushing him out the door. Maybe the deal they just gave Sproles is the same one they were offering to Reggie and he didn't want to take it. Not saying that is the case but no one outside of those involved really know so you can't say they were 100% trying to get rid of him either.
     
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  32. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box


    Let me make you feel better....

    We are installing a new offense. But without months of mini-camps and players just get their playbooks this week... at the end of July.

    Oh, the QB who will probably be starting is on another team right now.

    The running backs will be all-new, most likely, learning playbook and chemsitry from scratch.. except the rookie who will be learning EVERYTHING, including how to pick up a blitz, from scratch.

    And we have new members of the O-line again, including a rookie Center who is the heartbeat of the line's rhythm. Chemistry back to square one.

    Feel better?
     
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  33. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sure, they were, but are you really willing to come up with an apologia for Paul Pasqualoni and Dan Henning? Believe me, I know, I had to summon all my contrariness for it.

    That's not really putting a tremendous amount of thought or effort into it. Winning a Super Bowl does not make the Saints offense creative or innovative, nor does having mediocre offense mean our staff isn't.
     
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  34. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Fair, but this staff was so godawful last year they don't deserve the amount of time it takes to analyze the whiff of obstinacy, lack of innovation, small-ball and flat-out failure they emitted down the stretch. In short, they pissed me off so much they don;t deserve me inspecting their performances closely.

    If that invalidates my opinion, in your eyes, I'll have to take it, I guess.

    I do recall the Borwns offensive ranking not being stellar. I consider that pretty strongly correlated to Daboll's performance. Had they hired someone with a record of high-performance success I'd be more inclined to give them a thorough due diligence. But we were so execrable last year, exacerbated by the Ross/Sparano offseason debacle, that I have a feeling no top-tier co-ordinators would have been willing to come here. That's probably also why we stuck a WR's coach as our QB's coach. If a star QB had emerged from under Dorrell during his UCLA stint I might have thought there was a chance he was going to be good at helping our young QBs. Instead, it feels like we couldn't get anyone else.

    Maybe I'm just a negative nancy on all this. Hope so.
     
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  35. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I understand the concerns about Bush, stats are stats. But, it's not like we have no reason to have some hope for him. This is what we could be getting too.

    [video=youtube;pgRoDOed7XA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgRoDOed7XA&feature=related[/video]

    Now these are just his highlights, but at least they're highlights against NFL teams. This is stuff he has done and should be able to do again. We just need constancy from him. Maybe, this whole thing will motivate him.
     
  36. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    Reggie had a huge cap hit with his most current deal with New Orleans. Reports have already come out that Payton spent hours upon hours trying to convince Reggie to restructure so that the Saints COULD keep him. Reggie didn't want to take the cut the Saints were proposing, so they decided to move him at that point.

    New Orleans is able to do this due to an embarrassment of riches at the running back position. Chris Ivory, Mark Ingram, and the ability to sign Sproles for what is likely, the amount they wanted Reggie to take.

    Reggie isn't the player a lot of people thought he would be coming out of college, but the dude has talent and will NOT be a third string running back in Miami. He most likely platoons with the rookie and finds himself on the field on 3rd and long situations to utilize his receiving skills. For what we gave up to get him, it was a good deal. I have absolutely no problems with it.
     
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  37. Saint Greg

    Saint Greg Well-Known Member

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    Nah...you want him out of the backfield. Get a LB covering him and it's over.
     
  38. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Leak option for sure...
     
  39. Saint Greg

    Saint Greg Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget Pierre Thomas.
     
  40. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    A little delay if there's no blitzer would be nice. Hell, that way even if Henne incorrectly calls MAX PROTECT Bush can wait two-beats then leak out if no one is coming.
     

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