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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LBsFinest, Jan 13, 2015.
I think if this were true he'd have a job right now.
He has an okay eye for talent.
He's not Matt Millen, but look at Scot McCloughan getting a job even after his drunken episodes.
No no no you don't get it. He's under contract here still and teams can just hire him as a consultant.
What's that? He only had a short stint as a consultant with SEA then hasn't had a job since? Well then...
yeah fin d needs to put the bottle down.
exactly, McCloughan was a raging alcoholic that even showed up drunk on draft day, yet because he's one of the best talent evaluators in the business teams have always been interested in making him a part of their front office and maybe even eventually running the team, which he is now doing.
Fair enough. Yes, GMs can luck into players. In fact, luck is probably the key factor. Most of the great picks were lucky in the sense that nobody else took them earlier and many are also lucky in the sense that the team that did take them had no real idea what it had when it drafted the guy.
That's similarly true of all the good teams. NE lost to us, barely beat the Raiders and got pounded by the Chiefs. Denver got their butts kicked by STL. Seattle lost to 3 non-playoff teams. GB got throttled by the Saints and was impotent against the Bills. That's just how the NFL is.
Yea but were especially skitzo, not many can crush a team as good as San Diego and get dominated by the jets the way we really did twice. Were especially volatile imo, and that comes down to an abundance of starting talent, and a lack of coaching and some youth/inexperience mixed in there.
We really aren't any more schizo than most other middle of the pack teams. SD got trounced by us but beat Seattle by two scores. Buffalo beat GB then lost to the Raiders the next week and then beat NE the week after that. KC dominated us and the Pats but lost to Tennessee and the Raiders. Etc.
Is he really one of the best talent evaluators. His two drafts as GM in SF were abysmal. Crabtree is the only halfway decent player he got in those drafts. In Seattle he wasn't GM, but rather a "Senior Personnel Executive." I don;'t think he had final say so I'm not sure how much credit he gets for any of their picks. even if we credit him with everything, after a good first draft in Seattle, it was pretty much just Wilson and Sherman. Those were some big hits, but there is no indication he had any idea when Seattle took them that they'd become what they have become. That they got them so late suggests he did not (and that he got lucky they were even there).
You make a good point, but I personally don't see teams like the Chargers or Chiefs with the ability to dominate an opponent like we did, or hang tough with a team like GB, and then lay an egg the next week. Just my perception I guess. The pats played bad against the chefs, and Seattle played a couple of stinkers this year as well. The Chargers and Chefs don't have potential like us imo.
Well, KC did thoroughly dominate NE and it wasn't just because NE "played bad." KC beat Seattle and then lost the next week to Oakland. That's a more dramatic one week swing than anything the Dolphins did. SD looked absolutely pathetic against the Fins, but looked great putting up 30+ in wins against Seattle, Baltimore and SF.
I'm not trying to downplay the SD game, because it was good to see, but SD tends to play poorly in games that start at 10 AM Pacific time. The Ravens game was an exception.
They also beat the Bills at 10 Pacific Time, so they were 2-1 in those games. They were 2-1 in 2013 too. That's better than their record in other games.
Explain how Philbin is a horrible coach for guiding a team full of apparently horrible talent to a non horrible record of 8-8?
I know it goes against your cultivated angry d-bag persona, but you cannot have it both ways....either Ireland put together horrible talent and Philbin overachieved OR Ireland put together great talent and Philbin underachieved.
Yeah that 2013 draft sure was great.......
All 9 players are still on the team. (even though Gillislee to be there long)
They still can produce.
One was looking like a probowler until he was injured and injuries killed the rest of the defense.
One is looking like a solid tight end.
The book is not closed on Dion Jordan, Jamar Taylor or Will Davis.
Also Don Jones is a great special teamer.
Not a great draft, but as of right now, not a total failure.
Or we have average (or close to it) talent and Philbin has done an average (or close to it) job with it, which is how I see it. I don't like Philbin's style and demeanor and would have preferred to see him go, but it isn't happening. But yes, there seem to be a lot of people here who insist Ireland was a moron, Hickey sucks, Philbin is incompetent, Coyle has no idea what he is doing, Lazor is bad and Tannehill stinks. Obviously, that doesn't jibe with the roughly .500 record.
Good call. The quality of the team will always win out over the time zone factor. I still think the 1 PM Eastern kickoff isn't really fair. Opinions vary.
How many pro-bowlers did he draft in 6 years here, that have remained on the team ?
Also he can't even take credit for Wake, as a FA, because we don't know if it was Parcells who found him or Ireland.
I don't even understand how we have gotten to point where we are trying to prove that both Ireland and Philbin suck.
Ireland sucked. He sucked in every way. He was not a good talent evaluator. He was not good at drafting. He was not good at managing the roster. He was terrible. Anyone who says he was good at any of these things needs to raise their standards. The team was mediocre when he took over and remained mediocre when he left. He did not affect change. He will never get another GM position for the very reason that he SUCKS at it.
Philbin sucks. He sucks in every way. He makes poor decisions at key times. He is not a leader of men. He does not inspire or affect change. He could not manage the Incognito/Martin problem. He could not prepare his team to win either of the last 2 games when he only needed 1 to make the playoffs. He was an OL coach and the OL needs more coaching than ever. He brings nothing to the table. Philbin will NEVER be a head coach again after he leaves this organization for the very reason that he is not good at it.
They both suck. To say otherwise is just ridiculous. Both hurt the team with their lack of abilities.
How does this have anything to do with what I said?
I come here about once a day now for two reasons:
1) to see if we actually fired could or if any trade or personnel rumors are brewing and,
2) to witness the pathetic Stockholm syndrome that has embraced most of you.
The Jackson article is spot on. The second post on this thread spot on. You can call Sean smith a turd, say vontae had it coming, but fact is those players are solid starters at the very least.
Everyone wants to blame Ireland, and he was not great. But McCoy prob was the better hire. Also, hickey has don't OK, but after just one year, you place a loser like Tannenbaum over his head.
Now people are saying "well at least we got Tannenbaum to fire them and clean house." Like that's a great thing. I guess it has to be BC this team is in such shambles, but that's pathetically sad.
We basically realize that failbin will have a bad year. Hickey gets a raw deal, and what he has built for 2 years once again is mixed and matched with whoever else comes in, whoever else comes in wants their own QB, etc. And the over seer of this all, is mike friggen Tannenbaum. Yippee!!
Blame Ireland all you want - If Chad Henne was not taken and instead a better QB, parcels isn't such a "moron" "fatso" whatever.
The real and only problem is Steven Ross. Guy is clueless as they come and people in the league know it. Failbin coaches a weak, finess, undisciplined, and mediocre team void of leaders. Failbin reflects Ross's style and personality which is just as corny and weak as his own. Steve Ross is the problem. And all we've got to show for it after all his initial blunders is mike f'n Tannenbaum.
But yeah let's say Jackson is wrong, Ireland was the only issue, and Tannenbaum will save us. Its all we've got right?
Same old , same old .
I have been saying this pretty much for years . Don't tell me any more ....... show me .... show me more.
I hope for that , but honestly don't expect it any more.
Franchise that cried wolf . No one should believe them any more imo .
That's my take...they are both average.
My gripe is that same people acting as if Philbin is the worst coach ever act like Ireland is the worst GM ever, which is impossible based on the results.
I mean, when you have a bum HC and a 'maybe/hopeful' at QB...what can we expect? Teams that aren't strong in those two spots aren't going to win a ton of games and certainly aren't going to win consistently year-to-year.
IMO all the talent acquisition and drafting talk is just secondary stuff that people can dispute til the cows come home. I think this team has a severe lack of elite talent, but I know that doesn't really matter when the two most important people are shaky. It's the NFL...you need quality at HC and QB. The rest, for now, is noise.
Shhhh. It ruins the fun when you point out to them how stupid they sound.
Clark Kent's 2nd post nailed it: the franchise is run poorly by the owner, and that supersedes the average to poor performances of Ireland and Philbin. [FWIW, I think Ireland was average and Philbin is poor, but that's a digression]. Ross should have cleaned house the season after Sparano was fired. Instead, he kept Ireland and saddled him with Philbin. Next, Ross should have cleaned house last offseason, after the bullying scandal and the late season capitulation. Instead, he gets rid of Ireland and brings in Hickey to work with Philbin.
There is never a fresh start with this regime, there are always half-measures that are supposed to turn this thing around. Maybe Tannenbaum was brought in so that Ross can feel safe firing both the coach and GM next offseason. As stated above, that's some best hope we have, isn't it? Ross seems to need continuity beneath him, either because he doesn't trust his ability to hire the right people or because he doesn't trust people without working with them for a year first.
Both are the responsibility of the person who, after assessing the options, decides yearly that these are the right people for the job.
I'm not sure why we're proposing these somewhat convoluted explanations for the team's performance during Ross's tenure.
Since 2004 the team's win percentage has been 0.420 (a 74-102 record).
Since 2004 the team has averaged 5.63 net yards per pass attempt. Teams during the same period that have averaged between 5.53 and 5.73 net yards per pass attempt have had a 0.409 win percentage.
Since 2004 the team has averaged 5 yards per play. Teams during the same period that have averaged between 4.9 and 5.1 yards per play have had a 0.436 win percentage.
Since 2004 the team has allowed an average of 5.18 yards per play. Teams during the same period that have allowed an average of between 5.08 and 5.28 yards per play have had a 0.499 win percentage.
In other words, the team hasn't over- or underperformed what would be expected based on how it's played on the field in the last 10 years.
It might be a bitter pill to swallow, but I think we have to resign ourselves to the idea that the team simply hasn't acquired the necessary talent to be competitive at a high level, and that unfortunately is the norm in the NFL. The norm isn't to be exceptionally good. The norm is to be average, and the Dolphins have been average for quite a while.
If on the other hand the Dolphins had been significantly below average for quite a while, then a more logical argument could be made that the people running the team are deficient in some area. But that isn't the case.
Again, I think the tendency among fans is to want to believe the team could be significantly better if only "X" could change, and of course it helps if "X" is an easy change and is highly likely to produce significant improvement if changed.
However, I think we need to simply face the idea that the team is trudging along, trying to do what all teams are doing to become highly competitive (acquire the necessary talent), and unfortunately it hasn't done any better than would be expected (average) in that way for quite some time.
It's tough to accept the idea that "our" team is simply "just another team" instead of "something special," and when it isn't "something special," the tendency is to start scapegoating people and want to "blow it up," if only to generate the hope that it can make a quantum leap forward in its performance.
Again, if the team had done significantly worse than expected for an extended period of time, that might be the proper course, but that isn't the case. There is no quick fix that is going to generate a quantum leap forward in this instance.
I get that were not the only team that is "skitzo". My point is SD and KC aren't as dangerous as us in that when clicking on all cylinders, they're not as good. KC has a very poor receiving core and career average QB. They have a nice defense but our O definitely has more potential than theirs imo. And with San Diego, they can put up points but they don't have the talent on d that we do. When clicking on all cylinders (like we did against SD) I definitely don't see teams like the Charges or Chiefs with as much potential as us, in 2014 or beyond. And that is why I concur with Crowders assessment of us as a "dangerous" team. We don't play well consistently, but as an overall unit I don't see many other "middle of the pack teams" with the potential to dominate that we displayed that one day against San Diego.
A team with average talent coached to an average record means they are both average. Its not really complicated.
Philbin failed as a manager by allowing a scandal that brought shame to the franchise. I wouldn't hire him to run a fast food restaurant with those managing skills. You have to show that you're capable of making sure everybody is coming in to work fully focused on the job at hand. That was clearly not happening last year. This happened before the late season collapse, which gave a further hint as to his man management skills. The team came out flatter than flat in the two biggest games of the year. He repeated the collapse this year, only to be rewarded.
I don't even expect some kind of miraculous turnaround. Those things don't happen in Miami. I understand that quick improvements and turnarounds are for other organizations. There, I agree with you. I do expect the organization to get people in place who are capable of working together. Maybe someday.
lol. You've never worked in a restaurant.
Do tell us some of your experiences working at McDonald's
Anyone who has worked any significant time at a Red Lobster, Friday's, Outback, etc. laugh at the outrage over what happened in that locker room
I used to work at the deli at Publix. Believe me I have an idea what you're talking about.
We definitely don't want to hold this team to higher managerial standards than Outback Steakhouse. That would be unreasonable.
When you lead people who respect you, there is less messing around in the ranks, whether you work at Red Lobster or the Miami Dolphins.* When you lead people and you have any kind of emotional connection with them, you understand who is having a tough time and you work on it with them.
*I know the Jake Scott stories are coming. Things didn't fester with those teams, and things didn't blow up. Granted, we're in a different era as far as sports media coverage, but that also means we're in an era where players are expected to behave more like professionals. Especially when they're at work.
We don't have to rehash this whole thing. Maybe Ross had a great time working at Outback as well, and he just wants his players to relive the good times he had. Who can blame him? It's his team.
My point was there was a great off the field reason to fire Philbin last year, and Ross let it slide. In addition, there was a great on the field reason to fire Philbin last year, and Ross let that slide. Add one more year with a decent on the field reason to fire Philbin this year, but we're having too much fun letting things slide at this point.
Right, so Joe Philbin is basically cut out to be a Manager at a Red Lobster. Why is he being paid millions to coach an NFL team?