http://miamiherald.typepad.com/spor...holds-court-practice-notes-and-wed-buzz-.html Love the race discussions. And it may have already been evident from practice, but...
Man if Vernon can make a jump to be a good RDE that'll be impressive. I liked the kid last year and I think some write him off as strictly a backup. I dont know that he will ever be a pro bowl type but he could be a 7-9 sack guy with decent enough run defense. Flip Odrick inside on pass downs with the occasional snaps at RDE and thats an elite DL unit we have. PLus thats before we take in to account what we have at LB with Dion Jordan, Wheeler and Ellerbe. This is could be a really great front 7 to watch.
Our front seven should be dominant. I have normal doubts about every other unit except that one, unless we suffer a lot of injuries or our defensive backfield is so porous.
Our front seven is pretty good. The only thing I'm watching is to see how well Jordan, Ellerbe and Wheeler pick up Coyle's defense in their first year in it and if that limits how much variety we can employ in our looks up front.
Agreed. If Olivier Vernon makes that jump - that's impressive. And it makes that 2012 draft class look even more impressive. If things pan out the way they seem to be, Miami will have found their starting QB, starting LT, a starting DE, starting RB, and a host of contributing players, both drafted and undrafted. Potentially, you could see Jonas Gray, Josh Samuda, Derrick Shelby, Kelcie McCray all on the roster and guys like Kheeston Randall and Rishard Matthews contributed last year.
Misi should be a nice player again this year. He, Ellerbe, and Wheeler could be pretty formidable. The one thing that has me hesitant about the LB depth as a whole, is there's not much proven depth. You have a rookie in Dion Jordan who may play some at SAM; another rookie in Jelani Jenkins, Jonathan Freeny, Austin Spitler, Jason Trusnik, and Josh Kaddu, and a bunch of UDFAs. I wonder if backup LBs are one position Miami targets as cuts from other teams occur.
Liked when we drafted OV , liked him last year and expect to REALLY like him this year and going forward . Thought he made plays around the line of scrimmage a lot at UM and wasn't in the ideal situation/environment to produce more or better results. Plus he was and still is a very young player. Frankly ok am loving everything I am hearing re Vernon do far this year .
Nope. But based on last year, it's hard to really carve out a role for him. Same with Josh Kaddu. Combined, they played in a grand total of 6 games. I certainly think both very well should be on the roster this year. It's just that we really haven't seen either do anything. Yet.
Vernon should be in the role that Jared Odrick played last year, minus the inside snaps in the nickel. But then, he might excel with those as well.
Having too many good front 7 pieces, like Cam said is a good problem to have. The possibilities are endless, and we will never "get tired" at the end of the game, because we can constantly innerchange guys that compliment eachother. As a former defensive player, and lover of defensive schemes, these guys get me off in the naughtiest sense of the word.......as far as football goes.
Based on Warren Sapp's quoting of Jeff Ireland, it would appear things are falling that way. I'll admit, I wasn't as receptive to this move at first, but it sounds as though Odrick and Vaughn Martin could still both get snaps at DE to keep that size element there, a la what Seattle does. If Vernon's making big strides, that's a nice pick; especially since he missed most of his last college season with the Shaprio scandal.
It's amazing.....quarterback sees a front 7 line up like this: Jordan/Ellerbe/Wheeler Vernon/Odrick/Starks/Wake Who you chipping/double teaming? Who is blitzing? Who is dropping into hot read zones? How many steps back do you take? Just call a time out and quit.....because you're about to have a facemask of sod.
I wasn't high on the drafting of Vernon when it happened, but he does seem to have an elite level of athleticism that makes me hesitant to put a ceiling on him. I was particularly critical of his ability as a pass rusher, but in my experience those elite athletes will sometimes have something click that suddenly makes them excel there. It's an area where sometimes just perfecting a couple of complimentary moves can make a great athlete very tough to defend. My initial eval on him was that he was a potentially good but not great player. Decent against the run. He was stout enough and able to make tackles due to his athleticism. Fast for the position, but only average instincts. Better at moving side to side than attacking. He looks like he should be a good pass rusher, but lacks technique. With guys like that a lot depends on the personality. Will they put in the work? Will they get it? You'd like to think that they would have learned more in college so it's a red flag when they have experience but are still that raw. There could be reasons for that though as sometimes athletic players aren't coached on technique enough. The best, most driven guys overcome that and some mature later or find the right role model, but most never come anywhere close to their ceiling. I don't know which OV will be. I would say he has a high ceiling, but I have questions about how likely he is to reach it. On the bright side, I do think it's likely that he'll be at least a good player. I don't see much chance he'll bust. I don't think he'll be a liability on the field. The question is whether he'll be the guy that makes enough plays. I think that will depend on if he learns when and how to attack.
Seattle is going away from that themselves. They're not getting the pass rush they need at the times they need it, and the lack of athletic ability on the wing can be exploited.
I was high on the pick, although like you I questioned his outside pass rush ability. I thought he was a good all around player with a lot of inside-outside versatility, could be used in coverage, strong run defender, could even slide inside to tackle where he might be most effective with his pass rush. And like you said, he has good athletic ability so there was always the chance things "clicked" for him as a pass rusher...although what I saw in 2012 on top of what I saw in college makes me doubt that's ever really going to happen. Still a solid player and a solid 3rd round pick. Kenny Mixon-like. What confused the hell out of me is how the Dolphins wanted to use him in 2012 and how they thought about him. They really thought of him as a third down, outside pass rusher. It's almost like at a hospital they accidentally put the wrong chart on a patient's bed...guy with appendicitis wakes up with an amputated leg. Maddening.
I saw the selection of Vernon in the 3rd-round as a depth/value move; and I'm pretty sure the Dolphin's evaluation of #50 was similar to CK's, perhaps with a little more hope that he'd develop as a pass disrupter. Odrick's ability wasn't as clear heading into the draft, and Vernon was at least capable of contributing to a rotation. OV ended up being an option as a "pass rusher" in his rookie season because there's wasn't a better option available. Sure, the Fins could have looked to add one (not an easy task), but when would Vernon have seen the field? Sometimes you have to take a step back now to develop the talent you have and be better later -- and let's not fool ourselves -- last year was a rebuilding year. I think 6 or 7 sacks is a reasonable expectation for him this season.
I think VO fits better in Coyle's D than they thought. I think we could see a rotation and flexibility that most D's don't have with Starks, Soliai, Odrick, Wake, VO, Jordan, VMartin, Keeston Rhandall and Shelby. Odrick and VO seem to be making the most headlines, but Jordan, by the end of camp could be in the mix as well. There's a lot to be excited about on this D and VO is certainly right there at the top of the list right now...
If they had the same evaluation as I did of Vernon and they still used him as the nickel pass rush specialist purely for the sake of developing a skill set they don't have a whole lot of hope developing into something fantastic long term (pass rush) then there's no way for it...not a smart move.
This is good news imo, because I think I've seen enough proof of two things, one, I feel like we are dealing with a very tough individual, and two, I think we have an athlete that is showing that he has some serious work ethic..so he might be that guy that puts your mind at ease in terms of is he ever gonna get it, and with the strength and genetics this young man possesses, super strong, we might have ourselves a higher ceiling than a lot of folks expected including myself. He came out at 20 years, from a staff that got fired.
It's purely speculation on my behalf, but I thought Vernon was drafted to compete with Odrick. Long-term, moving Odrick inside was always a possibility once we returned to the 4-3. Based on last year's roster, who was better equipped to play on passing downs? Shelby? Freeny? Vernon > Odrick. I really think it's that simple. Many teams go into the draft needing a pass rusher at DE, but come out with zero, because the best ones are taken extremely high in the draft. If OV becomes a solid starter this season, that'll be a helluva 3rd-round selection.
I liked Vernon's UM film and thought he had some talent to work with but, like CK, I was a little confused on how he'd be used. At 255 he was too light to play strong side end [or right end in Coyle's defense] and seemed a hair stiff to be a quality rush end. I thought he was best suited as a strong side LB in a 3-4, which is why I thought he might be groomed to replace Misi. But now at a stout 270 pounds things can change a good deal b/c he plays with a strong power to weight ratio, has better speed & athleticism than your typical 270 pounder, and at 6'2 could be a handful for offensive linemen in the leverage department when coupled with everything else to where right side end might not be a top need entering next off season. Don't see him ever being a 10+ sack/year guy but if everyone else does their job he wont need double digit sacks in order to be successful IMO. Hey, remember the hit against Oakland's Coye Francies on the KO return. [video=youtube;5b6D3ltO6Z8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b6D3ltO6Z8[/video]
LMMFA @ Kevin Harlan: "Ooooooooh....knocked him back to Cleveland...oh my gosh...ooooh holy smokes". All in about 8 seconds.
That's the thing though. The Dolphins control the roster. So why didn't they go out and get someone that could actually rush the passer to play on nickel downs? They had plenty of opportunities.
Charting out Olivier Vernon's career path based on how he appeared in one aspect of game play as a rookie is about as scientific as phrenology.
OV could at least be the Ray Edwards to Cam Wake's Jared Allen impression. Ray was taller and couldn't drop as well as OV, but you just need a guy with some power and a bit off agility who can hold up on run downs and take what's flushed towards him.
WE project forward. It's what we do with every player. Set expectations. Vernon did not inspire one to think he'd be the next sack leader. He has a lot of other qualities going for him, and may have developed a lot between his rookie year to this year. I certainly thought he was better off as a SOLB. Hoping Vern kicks butt this year so I can eat delicious crow.
Todd, can you please go to the dolphin website under "training camp day 4 " and post pic #2, it's a picture of Vern and it screams leverage, strength, and freakish genetics....Fin hasn't taught me how to post pics from other sites from an iPad lol...I wouldn't ask unless I thought it was relevant to some points your making.
I'll admit to being on that hype train, once I hear players say this guy or that guy is the most improved, or that he worked extremely hard in the offseason, I like to find his strengths, go back and look at his college film again, and hope for the best until we see some preseason action.
Warning... a bad word is used. [video=youtube;T3o8w5tedNk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3o8w5tedNk[/video]
